What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Contradictions and the soul of man

Butch5 said:
We're talking about the Bible, not all of the knowledge of God. We are discussing what has been revealed. It's convenient to say we can't understand the things of God when our illogical doctrines are challenged. Too many accept this nonsense and are lead astray. The reason the Bible was written was so that we can understand. If what we come away with after reading the Scriptures is illogical it's because it's wrong.
Click to expand...

There is only one form of knowledge that has any value from the scriptures. That God Is Supreme and Active, over all things, and that He has Expressed His Own Self in His Son who is The Inheritor of same.

All else is sub-plot. And subject to comparative review for accuracy to the sub-plot narratives, all of which still fall under the the Divine Auspices of the above.

Paul "fast tracked" the entire narrative thusly, here:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"All things subdued" are the sub plot narratives.
 
smaller said:
Scripture teaches a POST DEATH JUDGMENT for ALL mankind, beyond any doubts. NOW, if, as you claim, the dead are dead and permanently gone, there is no point in giving an account. The dead are dead and gone, without the need of accounting or answering to God. Scripture does not teach that claim:

Acts 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Romans 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Romans 2:16
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

And the real AXE of this matter falls here:

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

IF these were permanently in the dust, eternally dead, eternally gone, they would not be "standing before God" in DIVINE JUDGMENTS.

Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Click to expand...

I didn't say the dead were eternally gone, I said they were dead. You are correct that all will be judged. That's why all will be resurrected.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

So, both the righteous and the wicked will be raised from the dead. The righteous when Christ returns.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:4-6 KJV)

There are two resurrections. The righteous first and then the wicked later. Notice that the second death has no power over those in the first resurrection. He doesn't say the second death has no power over those in the second. That's because it does.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.1
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 KJV)

So, the wicked will suffer a second death after they are resurrected. They will be resurrected, judged, and suffer their second death. At that point they will be eternally dead.
 
smaller said:
There is only one form of knowledge that has any value from the scriptures. That God Is Supreme and Active, over all things, and that He has Expressed His Own Self in His Son who is The Inheritor of same.

All else is sub-plot. And subject to comparative review for accuracy to the sub-plot narratives, all of which still fall under the the Divine Auspices of the above.

Paul "fast tracked" the entire narrative thusly, here:

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

"All things subdued" are the sub plot narratives.
Click to expand...

Seems like an opinion!
 
LifeinOne said:
All the words in blue are the flesh.
All the words in red are the spirit of man in the Spirit of God.

Genesis 2
7: then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Genesis 3
17: And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, `You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18: thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field.
19: In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Genesis 6
12: And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13: And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh; for the earth is filled with violence through them; behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
17: For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Ecclesiastes 3
17: I said in my heart, God will judge the righteous and the wicked, for he has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work.
18: I said in my heart with regard to the sons of men that God is testing them to show them that they are but beasts.
19: For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity.
20: All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Isaiah 40
6: A voice says, "Cry!" And I said, "What shall I cry?" All flesh is grass, and all its beauty is like the flower of the field.
7: The grass withers, the flower fades, when the breath of the LORD blows upon it; surely the people is grass.
8: The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever.

I Corinthians 5:
1: It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is living with his father's wife.
2: And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3: For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment
4: in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5: you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

John 6
63: It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

John 1
1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2: He was in the beginning with God;
3: all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
4: In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Colossians 1:
15: He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;
16: for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities – all things were created through him and for him.
17: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Click to expand...

The spirit is God's not man's. Man isn't a spirit, he is flesh. Look at Gen. 2:7 it shows how God created man.
 
Butch5 said:
Seems like an opinion!
Click to expand...
What? That The Creator Is Superior to and in control of "all things?"

He Is Lord of all. Whether anyone agrees with it or not is quite irrelevant.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 
smaller said:
What? That The Creator Is Superior to and in control of "all things?"

He Is Lord of all. Whether anyone agrees with it or not is quite irrelevant.

1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Click to expand...

No, this!

"There is only one form of knowledge that has any value from the scriptures."
 
Butch5 said:
No, this!

"There is only one form of knowledge that has any value from the scriptures."
Click to expand...

I consider Divine Superiority to be the only matter, that matters. Call all other things for what they are, under that Order.

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
 
Butch5 said:
What does that have to do with my post that you replied to?
Click to expand...

Your claim: "The reason the Bible was written was so that we can understand."

To which I responded, in short, "understand what?" My observation is to understand Divine Superiority of God, IN Christ, over all things:


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I believe you are a long time anti-Jesus poster of some sorts are you not, specifically in relegating Jesus to be less than God?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Philippians 2:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Pardon me if I strike for the heart of the matters.
 
Butch5 said:
The problem you face with that interpretation of Scripture is that you cannot provide anything that teaches that the soul is conscious after death. Those who hold your position can only point to parables and stories to say look these are real events. There is nothing in the Scripture that explains how the soul leaves the body and lives on afterward. it's by way inference.
Click to expand...
Not so, (1 Cor. 1:18-25.) The Jew requires a signs and the Gentile seeks after wisdom. Please read the posted Scriptures before you reply. It is hard for someone who is not born again to except Supernatural Spiritual matters. I testified that it was true that the soul is immortal....not the flesh. The flesh will return from where it came from (the earth) and the soul or spirit will return to where it came from (God) (Eccles. 12:21-22). That is not inference, that is the mind of God (truth) in the born again believer.......You must be born again. The soul leaves the body the same way it was given (Gen. 2:6-7) The Spirits of the angels that left their position and rebelled against God are reserved in darkness (2 Peter chapter 2). The reason a man cannot find the truth is the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman....not looking for it. Let me put it this way, I know there is an eternal spirit / soul, For the Lord has revealed it unto us.
 
smaller said:
Your claim: "The reason the Bible was written was so that we can understand."

To which I responded, in short, "understand what?" My observation is to understand Divine Superiority of God, IN Christ, over all things:


1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I believe you are a long time anti-Jesus poster of some sorts are you not, specifically in relegating Jesus to be less than God?

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Philippians 2:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Pardon me if I strike for the heart of the matters.
Click to expand...

Nowhere have I ever posted anything that is anti-Jesus. The problem is that people keep equivocating on the word God. It's a way to protect an illogical doctrine.

Now, back to the original subject. The point of my post was that what is contained in the Bible is there for our understanding. I don't really see how your post relates to the subject of my post. My post was to someone other than you. So, what does, "My observation is to understand Divine Superiority of God, IN Christ, over all things:" have to do with that?
 
Douglas Summers said:
Not so, (1 Cor. 1:18-25.) The Jew requires a signs and the Gentile seeks after wisdom. Please read the posted Scriptures before you reply. It is hard for someone who is not born again to except Supernatural Spiritual matters. I testified that it was true that the soul is immortal....not the flesh. The flesh will return from where it came from (the earth) and the soul or spirit will return to where it came from (God) (Eccles. 12:21-22). That is not inference, that is the mind of God (truth) in the born again believer.......You must be born again. The soul leaves the body the same way it was given (Gen. 2:6-7) The Spirits of the angels that left their position and rebelled against God are reserved in darkness (2 Peter chapter 2). The reason a man cannot find the truth is the same reason a thief cannot find a policeman....not looking for it. Let me put it this way, I know there is an eternal spirit / soul, For the Lord has revealed it unto us.
Click to expand...

The problem is your inferences. The spirit that returns to God is God's spirit. It's not man. Man is not a spirit. Gen2:7 tells us how God created man.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.1 (Gen. 2:7 KJV)

There you have it. God created man from the dust of the ground. However, the man wasn't alive. God then breathed into the man the breath of life and the man became something else. He became a living soul. This shows plainly that a living soul consists of the man that God created from the dust and the breath of life from God. This is man and the only breath or spirit in him is God's breath of life, nothing else. If you take the breath of life away there is no longer a soul because one of the components is missing.

We also see in Ezekiel 37 where God resurrects Israel that He His spirit or breath into them to make them live.

However, the apostle Paul makes it clear that the Father alone has immortality.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;1
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.(1 Tim. 6:13-16 KJV)

That ends the immortal soul doctrine in one verse. The apostle states plainly that it is the Father alone who has immortality, no one else.
 
Butch5 said:
Nowhere have I ever posted anything that is anti-Jesus. The problem is that people keep equivocating on the word God. It's a way to protect an illogical doctrine.
Click to expand...

Oh, what "illogical doctrine" are you speaking of there Butch?
 
Consider the rules of this forum when posting:

If you believe that someone is in error you must respectfully cite scripture to support your assertion.
 
smaller said:
I see.

So your personal proposal about Jesus is what exactly?
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is the thread for it. But, what the apostle Paul taught.

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 (1 Cor. 8:6 KJV)
 
LifeinOne said:
You say the word "Gnosticism" because you do not understand the knowledge that God has delivered in these posts that He had me type. That's why the Vatican religious heathens didn't want those writings to be read by their followers. They called the writings of God's saints who preached the Gospel "evil gnostic writings" to deter their followers from reading them or listening to the Gospel of the saints. The true Gospel of God was rejected by the Roman Catholic Church members and Vatican because they could not understand the knowledge that flowed from it.
Click to expand...

I understand. The main tenet of Gnosticism was that the way of salvation was through special knowledge. You keep saying that people didn't understand. This is basically what the Gnositcs said. They said one had to have the knowledge that only they had. They claimed that they had special knowledge that was revealed to them by the apostles.

Another tenet was that the flesh was inherently evil. Some Gnostics claimed that Jesus was only an illusion appearing as a man. Others said that the Christ was pure spirit and only indwelt the man Jesus. The apostle John addressed this concept.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: (1 Jn. 4:2-3 KJV).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top