conversion to christianity

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I have a Muslim friend who goes with me to church sometimes. She is very interested in Christianity and even went to buy a Bible on her own. Till now, her family doesn't know. I had another Muslim friend who was very interested in church but eventually backed off due to fear of family. They're not the only ones I know, many other Muslim-to-Christian converts I know are living as "secret Christians". Some retain their Muslim names. One of them told us that he does not want to change his name because he's trying to witness to other Muslims about Christianity and feels that retention of his Muslim name could help. There are also some ex-Muslim guys serving in my church and in other churches where I live, but their families do not know.

On the other hand, if we know of a Christian who has fallen out, all we do to is to pray for that person, who is still very much welcomed in our midst. Where I live, it's actually pretty common to see Muslims coming to churches. We once had a large goup of Muslim women coming to my weekend church services, complete with their tudung (hijab) and Muslim attires. We also have Muslims coming to seek healing and deliverance in my church because they know that Jesus heals and delivers. We have many reports of intant healings taking place among Muslims. God is so gracious !



:clap :clap :thumbsup :thumbsup

This is a great testimony Tina! I love seeing what the Lord is up to in other parts of the world. I have often read about "secret Muslims" and I pray God's blessings and protections over them. I often look at myself in my cushy Christian life in America and understand why such Christians who are considered least by wordly standards will be the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. Many Christians often take our freedom to worship freely forgranted. It's good to have a reminder that others are suffering for the name of Christ; it's very humbling to say the least.

What do you think is causing the Muslim population to be so hungry for Christ in your part of the world? What draws them out?
 
Precisely, the Lord came to fulfill the Law of Atonement. He did not destroy the Law of Morality (i.e. 10 commandments)

If you're going to come and argue on a Christian forum you should at least know the basic concepts of Christianity.

So which carries more weight? The Christian convert to Islam who loses nothing? OR The Muslim convert to Christianity who will die for his faith? and Why? :chin ;)

I just proved you christians Cite to the old Testament and believe it as the words of God
 
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What do you think is causing the Muslim population to be so hungry for Christ in your part of the world? What draws them out?


1. Religious tolerance - No one is allowed to bash each other's relgion. The Government takes a serious of that. The Muslims feel secure and a sense of religious freedom and tolerance. There are Mosques in every estate even in this small island where I live.

2. Most of our churches are megachurches (mine is 4000+ but still considered a small church) , and we devote a lot of time in prayers for nations and the unsaved. We have overnight prayers few times a year where we worship God and pray throughout the night. I know that in the States and elsewhere this is seriously lacking because my ex-fiance is American and he told me that himself. Cell groups and Bible study groups are also common and rampant and strongly encouraged.

3. Asian churches are not as divided across denominations like the American churches. We are pretty much united in our beliefs and doctrines. We are either Catholics or Christians (Protestants). Cults are very rare here, but I know they exist a lot in the States. It's pretty obvious from forums such as this how much American Christians are divided over doctinal differences and beliefs. When there is no unity in the Body of Christ, it does not give much glory to God especially when witnessing to non-believers.




:salute
 
I just proved you christians Cite to the old Testament and believe it as the words of God


Yes, every word from the OT to the NT is the absolute Word of God, but Christianity started in the NT. The reason God sent Jesus to die on the Cross for our sins is so we are no longer bound by the 613 laws of the OT (except the 10 commandments). It's called the "New Covenant" - a paradigm shift in covenant from the OT.
 
Yes, every word from the OT to the NT is the absolute Word of God, but Christianity started in the NT. The reason God sent Jesus to die on the Cross for our sins is so we are no longer bound by the 613 laws of the OT (except the 10 commandments). It's called the "New Covenant" - a paradigm shift in covenant from the OT.

so jesus died for our sins , then why I see this sentence in the bible

Proverbs [21] 18The wicked become a ransom for the righteous,
and the unfaithful for the upright.
 
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1. Religious tolerance - No one is allowed to bash each other's relgion. The Government takes a serious of that. The Muslims feel secure and a sense of religious freedom and tolerance. There are Mosques in every estate even in this small island where I live.

2. Most of our churches are megachurches (mine is 4000+ but still considered a small church) , and we devote a lot of time in prayers for nations and the unsaved. We have overnight prayers few times a year where we worship God and pray throughout the night. I know that in the States and elsewhere this is seriously lacking because my ex-fiance is American and he told me that himself. Cell groups and Bible study groups are also common and rampant and strongly encouraged.

3. Asian churches are not as divided across denominations like the American churches. We are pretty much united in our beliefs and doctrines. We are either Catholics or Christians (Protestants). Cults are very rare here, but I know they exist a lot in the States. It's pretty obvious from forums such as this how much American Christians are divided over doctinal differences and beliefs. When there is no unity in the Body of Christ, it does not give much glory to God especially when witnessing to non-believers.




:salute

I know what you mean. I go to a non-denominational church to get away from all the division. I love it. I'm a Christian, simple as that. Thanks for explaining it. I'm currently reading a book on Christian missionaries and so Christians abroad currently have my interest. I appreciate it Tina. (BTW my church used to do all night prayers once a month! but alot has changed since my Pastor had a stroke. maybe you can put her on your prayer lists ;)
 
so jesus died for our sins , then why I see this sentence in the bible

Proverbs [21] 18The wicked become a ransom for the righteous,
and the unfaithful for the upright.

You found this in the Book of Proverbs. Proverbs was written by Solomon. Do you understand what I mean by when I say it is a proverb?
 
so jesus died for our sins , then why I see this sentence in the bible

Proverbs [21] 18 The wicked become a ransom for the righteous,
and the unfaithful for the upright.


This is closely related to Proverbs 11:8 -- "The righteous is delivered from trouble, and it comes to the wicked instead."


A ransom is payment given to free a person from some penalty he has incurred, similar to posting bail to get out of Jail. In this case, it appears that God punishes the wicked and in doing so, sets the righteous free. Such would be the case if the wicked were oppressing the righteous. God delivers the righteous by punishing the wicked who oppress them.
 
This is closely related to Proverbs 11:8 -- "The righteous is delivered from trouble, and it comes to the wicked instead."


A ransom is payment given to free a person from some penalty he has incurred, similar to posting bail to get out of Jail. In this case, it appears that God punishes the wicked and in doing so, sets the righteous free. Such would be the case if the wicked were oppressing the righteous. God delivers the righteous by punishing the wicked who oppress them.

you said jesus died for our sins , what sins do you mean exactly ? do you mean adam's sin
 
I Love You Mugen!! :adore

Real Christians are peaceful and loving. If you are angry at things happening in the world and feel some hatred towards us I dont blame you....but remember there are many doing evil things in the world that call themselves Christians or say they are doing things in Christs name but they are not REAL Christians!
 
Proverbs 11:8 -- "The righteous is delivered from trouble, and it comes to the wicked instead."

I thought that "no one was righteous, no not one"? :chin
 
Can you try picking something out of the NEW TESTAMENT Mugen me lad.

Thats the Christian moral code not the Hebrew Torah.


((Still love you Mugen!! :waving))
 
Proverbs 11:8 -- "The righteous is delivered from trouble, and it comes to the wicked instead."

I thought that "no one was righteous, no not one"? :chin


Yes, the Bible indeed says not one of us is righteous. But we are MADE righteous through Christ. It's like a person who is not rich but is made rich through his parents.


2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


 
But isn't the Hebrew Torah supposed to be what shows god's character? Mugen makes a good point, especially if god IS "the same, yesterday, today, and forever".
 
Yes, the Bible indeed says not one of us is righteous. But we are MADE righteous through Christ. It's like a person who is not rich but is made rich through his parents.


2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

And how are you "made righteous"? Simply because you were able to believe something without proof. Somehow, a person who is unable to do so is "wicked". How is a person's thoughts considered a crime? What if a person couldn't both "believe" and still be intellectually honest? He's being truthful, yet is punished for it? Is that ethical?
 
Can you try picking something out of the NEW TESTAMENT Mugen me lad.

Thats the Christian moral code not the Hebrew Torah.


I agree with Strangelove, Mugen.

We have told you a couple to times already, in this thread and another thread. It's true that God appeared harsh and violent in the OT, but there are reasons atrocites happened in the OT - God detests idolatry and had no tolerance for sins. He chose to reveal His purposes explicitly through violence to send a clear signal. Now go over to the NT and you get a totaly different side of God - same God but He worked mostly through Christ, this time with a different purpose - called the "New Covenant". Violence and atrocities are put to bed. Of course it doesn't mean that sins are extinguished, they still very much exist in man, but the OT practices of rites, rituals or violence are no longer necessary for atonement - the CROSS of Christ makes all the difference.. God has simplified forgiveness for man !
 
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But isn't the Hebrew Torah supposed to be what shows god's character? Mugen makes a good point, especially if god IS "the same, yesterday, today, and forever".


God is Sovereign and Almighty. If He chose to be harsh and violent in the OT, but after 400 years of silence, decides to go into "semi-retirement" in Heaven and work through His Son, Jesus Christ with a brand new plan for mankind .... hey, that's up to Him !




And how are you "made righteous"? Simply because you were able to believe something without proof. Somehow, a person who is unable to do so is "wicked". How is a person's thoughts considered a crime? What if a person couldn't both "believe" and still be intellectually honest? He's being truthful, yet is punished for it? Is that ethical?


Intellectual honesty and ethics do not lead to salvation. Faith and belief does. That's what the Bible says .... and that's all there is to it.



:salute
 
God is Sovereign and Almighty. If He chose to be harsh and violent in the OT, but after 400 years of silence, decides to go into "semi-retirement" in Heaven and work through His Son, Jesus Christ with a brand new plan for mankind .... hey, that's up to Him !

So, if I understand you correctly, you are fine with this violent past, and future [Revelation]?

Intellectual honesty and ethics do not lead to salvation. Faith and belief does. That's what the Bible says .... and that's all there is to it.
:salute

So, the plan of salvation [believing something, Jesus as savior, that has no proof, based upon ancient writings] can be shown to be unethical [punishing those who require more than the words of someone else], yet you're fine with this?
 
you could be peaceful and others but the bible is totally evil , see for your self

I can copy and paste from websites too Mugen. You're not going to win your argument that way.

The Quran Dehumanizes Non-Muslims
and Says that They are Vile Animals


The Ayatollah Khomeini, who dedicated his entire life to studying Islam, said that non-Muslims rank somewhere between "feces" and the "sweat of a camel that has consumed impure food." Small wonder. The Quran dehumanizes non-Muslims, describing them as “animals†and beasts:

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)

Verse 7:176 compares unbelievers to "panting dogs" with regard to their idiocy and worthlessness. Verse 7:179 says they are like "cattle" only worse.

Verse 5:60 even says that Allah transformed Jews of the past into apes and pigs. This is echoed by verses 7:166 and 2:65.

A hadith says that Muhammad believed rats to be "mutated Jews" (Bukhari 54:524, also confirmed by Sahih Muslim 7135 and 7136).

Verses 46:29-35 even say that unbelieving men are worse than demons who believe in Muhammad.

According to Islamic law, non-Muslims may be owned as property by Muslims, but - in keeping with Islam's supremacist message - a fellow Muslim should never be (unless they convert to Islam after enslavement). Even Christians and Jews are not considered fully human in that the penalty for killing one of them is limited to one-third of the compensation due for unintentionally killing a Muslim.

The Quran Says that Allah does NOT Love Unbelievers

Christianity teaches that God loves all people, but hates sin. The Quran never says this. Instead it explicitly declares that Allah does not love those who do not believe in him:

He does not love the unbelievers (30:45)

Allah only loves those who obey Muhammad (at least according to Muhammad, who provided the "narration"):

Say: "Obey Allah and His Messenger": But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith. (3:32)

Instead of a god that loves the sinner, even while hating the sin, the wrath of Allah is placed squarely on the individual:

Surely Allah does not love any one who is unfaithful, ungrateful. (22:38)

Verses 11:118-199 say that Allah does not bestow mercy on everyone. For this reason, he chooses not to guide some people:

And Allah's is the direction of the way, and some (roads) go not straight. And had He willed He would have led you all aright. (16:9)

For those whom Allah does not love, there will be the most terrible of eternal torments, including eternal roasting:

Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (4:56)

"Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98) and, as we shall see, he hates them so much that he even leads them into sinning and actively prevents them from believing in him, thus ensuring their fate.

The Quran Says that People of Other Religions
are to be Violently Punished in This World


Allah himself fights against the unbelievers (9:30), so why should Muslims not fight in his cause rather than in the cause of evil (4:76)? About 19% of the Quran is devoted to the violent conquest and subjugation of non-Muslims:

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)

Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)

Muslims are to expect a reward in this life as well as the next (4:134), so it makes sense that unbelievers should be punished in this life as well:

…He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33:34)

All beings on heaven and earth will be forced to bow down to Allah, either willingly or by force:

And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly (13:15)

Those who resist Islam will be humiliated:

Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated. (58:20 - The context for this verse is the eviction of the Jewish tribes of Medina and the confiscation of their wealth, land, and children by Muhammad).

Non-Muslims are to be fought until religion is only for Allah:

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (8:39 – “Persecution†in this context means resistance to Islam – defined in the prior verse as an unwillingness to believe (see verse 38). This passage was “revealed†following a battle that Muhammad deliberately provoked. Verse 2:193 essentially says the same thing and was also “revealed†at a time when the Muslims were not under physical attack).

Those with "diseased hearts" - which include Christians and Jews according to 5:52 - are to be "seized wherever found and slain with a (fierce) slaughter" (33:60-62) along with "hypocrites" (Muslims who are judged not to be true believers by their associations with unbelievers or their unwillingness to engage in Jihad).

Non-Muslims are to be encroached on and pressured by the Muslims:

See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? (13:41 - See also 21:44)

And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things. (33:27, See also Bukhari 53:392)

Allah will grant Muslims authority and power over all other people:

Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion... (24:55)
(Muhammad's companions continued to self-fulfill this prophecy with an aggressive and senseless military expansion that left a trail of bodies from Spain to India).

Allah provides instructions to Muslims for dealing with unbelievers who are unwilling to accept Islamic rule:

Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)

Other verses of violence may be found here.

Remember that the Quran says that not all men are equal in Islam. This also applies to Muslims themselves with regard to their aggressiveness toward unbelievers. Those who kill or are killed on behalf of Islam are more pleasing to Allah:

Not equal are those of the believers who sit at home... and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allah with their wealth and lives" (4:95)

This copying and pasting doesn't get us very far does it Mugen? It seems the Qu'ran is evil. Should we all become atheists?