Converting to Islam or other religions

[Aardverk]

But I note that apart from crying 'waffle' you have not made any comment that might be deemed a logical response.

I can only assume you have no intention of doing anything other than listening to the sound of your own voice ...

Goodbye.

One who mocks others and then completely fails to give an alternative opinion is.............?

You very rudely insulted for_his_glory and me yet you have utterly failed to give any explanation of your reasons. If you have a good reason, tell us, if you don't have a reason, just keep silent.

 

[wayseer]

Muhammed may not have been a warlord but he did lead an army and led them in fighting for at least 8 years.

But in suggesting that 'he led and army' you convey, and support previous posts that suggest that ...

Mohammed was in fact a terrorist, criminal, and murderer whose entire life and teachings were based on victimizing innocents and indulging in mindless violence and massacre.

This is a pejorative statement that cannot be supported by what we know. Yes, Muhammad, did launch attacks and did kill and maim, but it seems these were extreme events.

Although Muhammed predates the earliest known writing of the Quran, it doesn't mean one wasn't written earlier.

Well, no. And the same applies to the biblical texts. But it seems there is a corpus of opinion that Muhammad did not write anything himself.

 

[wayseer]

One who mocks others and then completely fails to give an alternative opinion is.............?

You very rudely insulted for_his_glory and me yet you have utterly failed to give any explanation of your reasons. If you have a good reason, tell us, if you don't have a reason, just keep silent.

You are now baiting. I have given you, and others, my explanation. That you cannot understand is your concern.

 

[Aardverk]

You are now baiting. I have given you, and others, my explanation. That you cannot understand is your concern.

Hopefully this has been a learning experience for you.

Take care.

 

[for_his_glory]

When we give scripture or historical accounts it needs to be up to the individual to take all the content that was given and search for themselves before they pass any judgement on that which is given. I have showed the comparison of the Quaran vs. The KJV Bible without any commentary to the two, but even that was rejected so either wayseer is a Muslim or just doesn't get it.

 

[wayseer]

When we give scripture or historical accounts it needs to be up to the individual to take all the content that was given and search for themselves before they pass any judgement on that which is given. I have showed the comparison of the Quaran vs. The KJV Bible without any commentary to the two, but even that was rejected so either wayseer is a Muslim or just doesn't get it.

You have provided us with your opinion that Muhammad was some sort of bloodthirsty warlord. All, the historical accounts indicate otherwise - as I have pointed out.

The point is, had you also read up a bit on Muhammad life you would not have rushed into your conclusions.

The fact that I study Islamic theology does not mean I'm a Muslin - in fact your statement is fallacious. What it does mean is that I don't accept the 'shoot from the hip' brand of theology which is little more than a thin veneer covering a 'I hate Islam' ideology.

I really don't mind if your disagree with me - but such disagreement has to be a substantiated argument - not fantasy.

I have any number of issues with Muhammad and Islam, theologically and philosophically, but that he was some sort of rampaging warlord is not one that can be justified.

 

[Aardverk]

Aardverk, it is only by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that we have complete understanding of Gods word......

I was a devout Christian and I believed everything I was taught.
I believed I had The Holy Spirit to guide me.
In those happy days, I could fully understand The Bible (by your definition).
Are you claiming that, when I started to question things, the Holy Spirit abandoned me and I suddenly became completely unable to understand the words with which I was already very familiar?


It is (apparently!) pointless me commenting upon the scriture that you posted as, by your definition, I can't possibly understand it and there is absolutely no point in me bothering to read the Bible any more.

Unless of course you are wrong

 

[Aardverk]

.............I really don't mind if your disagree with me - but such disagreement has to be a substantiated argument - not fantasy.....

Well said wayseer. I think that is the first thing you have said that we will all agree is very sensible. Now that you have said it, are you prepared to follow your own wise words?

Just in case you have forgotten, this disagreement started with two of us interpreting these Q'ran words to licence rape. The two of us made fairly different interpretations but you maintained that these words did not licence rape. Later on you posted something which may or may not have been an acknowledgement of your error but it was far too vague to ascertain your true meaning. All that was clear was that you failed to apologize for your outburst and you failed to give any alternative interpretation than 'rape'.

Given your words quoted above, are you ready now to have a crack at 'substantiated argument' about what these words mean?

4:24 And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you. Lawful unto you are all beyond those mentioned, so that ye seek them with your wealth in honest wedlock, not debauchery. And those of whom ye seek content (by marrying them), give unto them their portions as a duty. And there is no sin for you in what ye do by mutual agreement after the duty (hath been done). Lo! Allah is ever Knower, Wise.

 

[Classik]

I was a devout Christian and I believed everything I was taught. I believed I had The Holy Spirit to guide me.In those happy days, I could fully understand The Bible (by your definition).

Devout? By 'devout' do you mean a church-goer? Or what is your definiton: 'devout'? You believed everything you were taught? And suddenly you fled Christianity. Perhaps this post is a great avenue to get back to the OP. If you don't mind...can you tell me what prompted your fleeing Christianity.?

 

[seagullplayer]

When you are faced with facts you can not dispute you drag up something for a smoke screen. I skipped to the end after I read the first couple of pages of this thread.

You either believe what the Bible says or you don't.

If you choose not to believe God's Word, then you are making it up as you go.

If you choose to believe God's Word, then Jesus makes it very clear He is the only way to heaven. If you say otherwise, you are calling Jesus a lie.

Had there been another way, He would not have died on the cross.

You may think you are being very modern and tolerant and politically correct when pointing out the "virtues" of other religions, but in fact you are part of the great deception when you tell someone they are OK with God, when they are not. There is only one way to heaven, it is though Christ. That is what God's Holy Word teaches so that is what I believe as a Christian, a follower of Christ.

Believing in the wrong thing is as bad as believing in nothing, and the end result is the same.

A prayerful and honest reading of Romans Chapter one might help in this regard.

Lots of good well meaning wonderful people are going to Hell.

 

[Classik]

Great post....and welcome to CF.net

 

[Aardverk]

Devout? By 'devout' do you mean a church-goer? Or what is your definiton: 'devout'? You believed everything you were taught? And suddenly you fled Christianity. Perhaps this post is a great avenue to get back to the OP. If you don't mind...can you tell me what prompted your fleeing Christianity.?

I tend to use standard dictionary meanings rather than my own meanings for words. This is the first result that came up with a Google search:

devout: Adjective -
1. Having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment.
2. Totally committed to a cause or belief.​

If you wish to interpret 'devout' in some other way that is entirely up to you but this is what normal people mean.

I never said that I 'suddenly fled Christianity' those are your words, not mine. I have not 'fled Christianity', I am pushed to the fringes of it and, in an earlier age, I would have been executed because I think for myself and believe slightly different things from some. I can not be called a Christian on this forum but elsewhere I am called a Christian.

My move away from Nicene Christianity came about as part of the process of studying theology and finding that much of what I previously believed was simple fact and the inspired word of God was actually (almost) totally unsupported. Please remember that I have said many times in these pages that 'I know nothing'. I have always written it just that way to emphasize that my beliefs are my beliefs and not necessarily facts. If other people wish to believe that 'they know something', that is entirely up to them.

You will never see me criticizing anyone's beliefs, you may however see me questioning bigotry, bullying, misinformation, errors and questionable interpretations of words. Conversely, you will see me seeking the views of others when I really do not understand another's thought process. If any of that is objectionable to you, you can always put me on your 'ignore list'.

Before you do that: Are you alright Classik?

Is there a problem you wish to share? You seem to have changed in the last couple of weeks from a polite, humorous, easy-going, intelligent person into an 'angry teenager'. I have noticed that you ask a lot of questions but you very rarely answer them. It is as if you are holding everything in and trying to divert attention. In all sincerity, share your problem openly and it will probably feel better.

 

[Aardverk]

When you are faced with facts you can not dispute you drag up something for a smoke screen. I skipped to the end after I read the first couple of pages of this thread.

You either believe what the Bible says or you don't.

If you choose not to believe God's Word, then you are making it up as you go.

If you choose to believe God's Word, then Jesus makes it very clear He is the only way to heaven. If you say otherwise, you are calling Jesus a lie.

Had there been another way, He would not have died on the cross.

You may think you are being very modern and tolerant and politically correct when pointing out the "virtues" of other religions, but in fact you are part of the great deception when you tell someone they are OK with God, when they are not. There is only one way to heaven, it is though Christ. That is what God's Holy Word teaches so that is what I believe as a Christian, a follower of Christ.

Believing in the wrong thing is as bad as believing in nothing, and the end result is the same.

A prayerful and honest reading of Romans Chapter one might help in this regard.

I agree with quite a lot of that but do also skip forward to Romans 2:11, 3:3 etc.

Lots of good well meaning wonderful people are going to Hell.

That's the interpretation that I have difficulty accepting. The loving, caring God that I prefer is 'just and fair'. No matter how pious our words are, it is our deeds that count otherwise it would be the Pharisees who were 'the way'. A good and blameless Jew, Muslim, Hindu, etc stands an equal chance with a 'just and fair' God.

Welcome to the forum. Please see the last post to get an idea about who I am.

 

[Classik]

I tend to use standard dictionary meanings rather than my own meanings for words. This is the first result that came up with a Google search:
devout: Adjective -
1. Having or showing deep religious feeling or commitment.
2. Totally committed to a cause or belief. If you wish to interpret 'devout' in some other way that is entirely up to you but this is what normal people mean.

Those definitions sound great. I mean very great.

(I'm not referring to you you here. I repeat, this is not directed at you, sir):
However, total committment may not necessarily mean someone is genuinely a born again. I was amazed one day when a member somewhere came out for altar call. He received the Lord that day. Everyone was totally amazed saying: All these while he had not known the Lord but has been a committed worker, never missing program? This is even true with most musicians:shocked

I never said that I 'suddenly fled Christianity' those are your words, not mine. I have not 'fled Christianity', I am pushed to the fringes of it and, in an earlier age, I would have been executed because I think for myself and believe slightly different things from some.

Maybe poor choice of word. I didn't mean anything derogatory. I meant 'left' (backslidden perhaps - not sure if its the right word). If my use of 'fled' is offensive - then I surrender an ocean of remorse to you - sorry.

I can not be called a Christian on this forum but elsewhere I am called a Christian.

I think you have never said you are at all. You have once said (or a couple of times) - you are not a Christian. You are called a Christian elsewhere? Superb. But, why not here? Denominational differences...or is there a sort of incorrect teaching here? Also I think there are differences in meaning between Christian and Born-again (or born- again Christian). Which word?

My move away from Nicene Christianity came about as part of the process of studying theology and finding that much of what I previously believed was simple fact and the inspired word of God was actually (almost) totally unsupported.

Strange, sorta...convoluted...kinda. Elaborate.

Please remember that I have said many times in these pages that 'I know nothing'.

You seem to have the most number of posts. This is typical of Pianists and instrumentalists. Freeman (Yanni - Tribute) after such demonstration would tell you: I'm still learning:D

I have always written it just that way to emphasize that my beliefs are my beliefs and not necessarily facts. If other people wish to believe that 'they know something', that is entirely up to them.

okay.

You will never see me criticizing anyone's beliefs, you may however see me questioning bigotry, bullying, misinformation, errors and questionable interpretations of words. Conversely, you will see me seeking the views of others when I really do not understand another's thought process.

Good

If any of that is objectionable to you, you can always put me on your 'ignore list'.

The ignore list. I wasn't born with one. I ignore only antiBarça and antiMessi:D

Before you do that: Are you alright Classik?

Maybe maybe not. I miss La Liga - I miss my squad -We should resume this week. I've again started feeling the absence of Whitney Houston and Jackson etc

Is there a problem you wish to share?

Yes! Cesc Fabregas is injured. Also a friend #### who has insomnia problem is very angry with me. I couldn't help. Absolute insomnia - I couldnt help!!!

You seem to have changed in the last couple of weeks from a polite, humorous, easy-going, intelligent person into an 'angry teenager'.

La Liga isn't back. Teenager? Toddler instead.

I have noticed that you ask a lot of questions but you very rarely answer them.

Most of which are questions asked by friends who don't have access to posting here. Some of which are strange issue I have never pondered over before... and feeling my superiors can help. etc

It is as if you are holding everything in and trying to divert attention. In all sincerity, share your problem openly and it will probably feel better.

Diverting attention? My problems? Rather friends problems are mine too. Besides there are issues I share here that I don't make completely open... And for security and 'thier' privacy reasons.

Of Course I do have a problem. No one cares anymore. Have you ever had close aquaintance with people or strangers? Have you ever walked into the street and notice people are suffering and in bondage...however you are living comfortably and eating out of diamond plates. Maybe my comfort is a discomfort to other people. I feel I haven't done enough for people. Truth is, I can't feed a trillion mouths. Feed A today and you see B tomorrow. Feed C today, D, E, G etc are still perishing away.

I can't remain inside...in one way or the other church stuff, work, sports etc will bring me into the universe again. All I see is a sad generation: hopeless, perishing, angry, suicidal faces staring hopelessness at you etc...

The street is just one universe of agony.

 

[JCitoL]

islam is sort of better than hinduism, yoga, buddhism and the other indic religions, but it also was a human religion till now, so there is not a better faith than the right faith in the true God and Jesus - this is the original

Matthew 10:37-39 "He that loveth father(i.e. spiritual teacher/master/father) or mother(i.e. or spiritual mother) more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter(i.e. spiritual disciple or follower) more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross(i.e. the right faith), and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Blessings

 

[seagullplayer]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Bible makes it very plain that only though faith in Christ are we made right with God. Again, if I am going to be a follower of Christ, I must believe what He has told us in His Word.

Good works are a product of one's salvation, not the cause of it.

I did not create God, He created me, I don't get to pick and choose what I want to believe and I don't get to tell Him how to run His universe. He shows me more grace and mercy than I ever would have, for one. :D

 

[Classik]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.The Bible makes it very plain that only though faith in Christ are we made right with God. Again, if I am going to be a follower of Christ, I must believe what He has told us in His Word. Good works are a product of one's salvation, not the cause of it. I did not create God, He created me, I don't get to pick and choose what I want to believe and I don't get to tell Him how to run His universe. He shows me more grace and mercy than I ever would have, for one. :D

Amen!!!

 

[Aardverk]

.....I think you have never said you are at all. You have once said (or a couple of times) - you are not a Christian. You are called a Christian elsewhere? Superb. But, why not here? Denominational differences...or is there a sort of incorrect teaching here? Also I think there are differences in meaning between Christian and Born-again (or born- again Christian). Which word?

I accept that you may never have read it but I assure you that I have explained several times that I can no longer honestly recite the Nicene creed and have no wish to lie to God. The SofF of this forum contains similar words which define a Christian for the purposes of this forum. If I had said Christian: 'Yes', people would rightly have jumped on me as soon as I started asking questions which made it clear that my beliefs differ from theirs.

As for 'born again' that is just a fashion word which became popular with the hippie movement in the 60's (I was there man;)) and soon became popularized by Billy Graham and the modern way of pretending that you were better than the next man - because he was not 'born again'. Pretty silly really. :gah It means no more than the current fashion of people claiming that they have a 'personal relationship' with God - another 'holier than thou fashion that will eventually pass as people grow out of it. These things come and go. They are all the rage for a while and then die out - like the 'Toronto Blessing' ;)

Strange, sorta...convoluted...kinda. Elaborate.

I think the word you were after is 'honest'.


I am glad to here that you have nothing more serious than football troubling you.

 

[Classik]

My use of Born-again is simple...and has nothing to do with your holier than thou remark of distaste and criticism. If someone says he's christian he may be just a church goer or one who enters a church once in a year - and has never made peace with God. When someone fills a form and gets to the part that says: 'religion', and writes 'Christian' does that make the person a true christian (one who believes Jn 3:16 and testifies it)? I think post #116 should help you understand this. Thanks for your reply. No more replies...no need.

 

[Classik]

My use of Born-again is simple...and has nothing to do with your holier than thou remark of distaste and criticism. If someone says he's christian he may be just a church goer or one who enters a church once in a year - and has never made peace with God. When someone fills a form and gets to the part that says: 'religion', and writes 'Christian' does that make the person a true christian (one who believes Jn 3:16 and testifies it)? I think post #116 should help you understand this. Thanks for your reply. No more replies...no need.

I wonder why your Profile reads: Christian: No. Do not reply pls. Ta