Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Alfred Persson]

Surely Omniscient God would not create if most of those who come into existence, are lost forever. If a man built a factory that lost over 90% of its product, he would be labeled a fool.

Did God have a sure fire plan that did not rely on humans for success? Could it be this simple, He makes all things work together to save His Beloved, every one of them:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

 

[Randy]

The message of the new life offered by God through His Christ and by His Son was sent in the beginning to nations who lived with many false Gods and with many different customs and lived in unrestrained sin. They lived In ignorance and darkness.

Yet it was understood by many. In this day and age we have churches on many corners. It can be understood.

Its salvation by the forgiveness of sins which is found in Christ alone. Many years ago when I was witnessing Christ to those in Judaism one of they stated, "I don't need Jesus I can just ask God to forgive my sins". At that very moment, not before, I felt a shaking and stirring of power in my chest and I heard in my mind these words, "It is not for you to choose how to forgive sin" So full of joy I gave that reply. They still didn't believe in Him who is true.

The ratio given by the Lord
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Yet the Lords desire is different
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

God created freewill and lets His rain (For Now) fall on the righteous and wicked

Just like the first covenant with curses and blessings the new covenant has curses and blessings. For in the gospel message sent to the nations is the day of the Lords wrath on the wicked.

And with that light comes accountability to all nations
“Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

 

[Cnkw3]

Surely Omniscient God would not create if most of those who come into existence, are lost forever. If a man built a factory that lost over 90% of its product, he would be labeled a fool.

Did God have a sure fire plan that did not rely on humans for success? Could it be this simple, He makes all things work together to save His Beloved, every one of them:

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. (Rom. 8:28 NKJ)

You are exactly right. If you want to be a child of God or born again you must Hear, believe, repent, confess and be baptized in water for the remission of your sins. Those are all the steps you presented in your video.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You are exactly right. If you want to be a child of God or born again you must Hear, believe, repent, confess and be baptized in water for the remission of your sins. Those are all the steps you presented in your video.

I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

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[Cnkw3]

I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

Yea. If that’s what you believe then we definitely disagree.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27
We have a glimpse of the post mortem in Lk 16. After Lazarus died he went to torment. Was there mentioned anything about repentance? No. He was begging for someone to go back and tell his family so they wouldn’t end up in the same place. I like what he was told…..They have all they need in Moses and the prophets.
Which at that time was in the form of a book or scroll. So here is a man in hades who was told that the book his family had access too was all they needed to get right with God and avoid torment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yea. If that’s what you believe then we definitely disagree.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27
We have a glimpse of the post mortem in Lk 16. After Lazarus died he went to torment. Was there mentioned anything about repentance? No. He was begging for someone to go back and tell his family so they wouldn’t end up in the same place. I like what he was told…..They have all they need in Moses and the prophets.
Which at that time was in the form of a book or scroll. So here is a man in hades who was told that the book his family had access too was all they needed to get right with God and avoid torment.

You took that verse out of context, in context it proves post-mortem evangelization:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

After death is a trial, a judgement, and that is why Christ was offered to bear their sins, so that those who pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) now eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

If the rich man in hades was irredeemably wicked, he would curse God and Abraham and not worry about his family. Nor would Abraham and those with him desire to cross over into Hades to counter God's punishment of the wicked, that would be rebellion against God:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

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[LovethroughDove]

Surely Omniscient God would not create if most of those who come into existence, are lost forever. If a man built a factory that lost over 90% of its product, he would be labeled a fool.

He did, so I guess you think he is a fool?

Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." - Jesus

Romans 9:19-23

 

[Cnkw3]

You took that verse out of context, in context it proves post-mortem evangelization:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

After death is a trial, a judgement, and that is why Christ was offered to bear their sins, so that those who pass the Trial by believing the gospel preached to the dead (1 Pet. 6:4) now eagerly wait for Christ's return, for salvation.

Heb 9 says nothing about preaching to people after they are dead. There is no 1 Pet 6

If the rich man in hades was irredeemably wicked, he would curse God and Abraham and not worry about his family. Nor would Abraham and those with him desire to cross over into Hades to counter God's punishment of the wicked, that would be rebellion against God:

`And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. (Lk. 16:26 NKJ)

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

endtimenews.net

If you are right then why didn’t Abraham preach to the man and help him out? This man new his fate was sealed and he did not want the same for his family.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Heb 9 says nothing about preaching to people after they are dead. There is no 1 Pet 6

If you are right then why didn’t Abraham preach to the man and help him out? This man new his fate was sealed and he did not want the same for his family.

A typo, I meant 1 Pt. 4:6

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Christ preached to the spirits in prison, that is postmortem evangelization:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:1 NKJ)

If Christ preached doom to those in hell, how is their response "an antitype" to our answer of a good conscience which now saves us?

Therefore, Christ did NOT preach doom.

From post #4

The dead in the grave (hell) hear Christ's voice, and all who do good (=pay heed, obey) rise to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Gospel preached to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Spirit saved in the "day of the Lord Jesus" AFTER Satan destroyed his flesh (killed him):

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)


After men die, they are judged, and [and all who repent and believe in Christ] will "eagerly wait for" His second coming:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

​

 

[Cnkw3]

A typo, I meant 1 Pt. 4:6

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Christ preached to the spirits in prison, that is postmortem evangelization:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
21 There is also an antitype which now saves us-- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Pet. 3:18-4:1 NKJ)

If Christ preached doom to those in hell, how is their response "an antitype" to our answer of a good conscience which now saves us?

Therefore, Christ did NOT preach doom.

From post #4

The dead in the grave (hell) hear Christ's voice, and all who do good (=pay heed, obey) rise to the resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Gospel preached to the dead:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

Spirit saved in the "day of the Lord Jesus" AFTER Satan destroyed his flesh (killed him):

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)


After men die, they are judged, and [and all who repent and believe in Christ] will "eagerly wait for" His second coming:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

​

Since when does “prison” mean hell? you are putting words into Gods mouth. that word in the Greek was never translated hell. Christ did not go preach to people in hell as if he could save them.
In 1 pet 4 why does “dead” have to mean in eternal hell? It doesn’t, it can mean other things such as being spiritually dead while still living on this earth. God told Adam and Eve that the day they eat of the tree they would die. Did they die? Not physically but spiritually they did.
you are building a doctrine by putting words into Gods mouth that he did not say.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Since when does “prison” mean hell? you are putting words into Gods mouth. that word in the Greek was never translated hell. Christ did not go preach to people in hell as if he could save them.
In 1 pet 4 why does “dead” have to mean in eternal hell? It doesn’t, it can mean other things such as being spiritually dead while still living on this earth. God told Adam and Eve that the day they eat of the tree they would die. Did they die? Not physically but spiritually they did.
you are building a doctrine by putting words into Gods mouth that he did not say.

Incorrect

Christ descended into hell:

9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:9-10 NKJ)

That is confirmed by this context.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison (5438 φυλακή phulake),
20 who formerly were disobedient, (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20 NKJ)

φυλακή phulake
…
(IV) Of the place where someone is watched, guarded, kept in custody, a prison. Generally (Matt. 5:25; 14:3, 10; 18:30; 25:36, 39, 43, 44; Mark 6:17, 40; Luke 3:20; 12:58; 21:12; 22:33; 23:19, 25; John 3:24; Acts 5:19, 22, 25; 8:3; 12:4–6, 17; 16:23, 24, 27, 37, 40; 22:4; 26:10; Rev. 2:10). In the sense of imprisonment (2 Cor. 6:5; 11:23; Heb. 11:36; Sept.: Gen. 40:3f.; 42:17; Lev. 24:12; 1 Kgs. 22:27). Poetically of the bottomless pit, abyss, Tartarus, as the prison of demons and the souls of wicked men (1 Pet. 3:19; Rev. 20:7 [cf. 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 1:6]). See tartaróō (5020), to consign to Tartarus. Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

These are spirits who have been in prison since the days of Noah. That connects them to the angels who sinned now in Tartarus, the "LOWEST HELL"

1 When humankind began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful. Thus they took wives for themselves from any they chose.
3 So the LORD said, "My spirit will not remain in humankind indefinitely, since they are mortal. They will remain for 120 more years."
4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days (and also after this) when the sons of God were having sexual relations with the daughters of humankind, who gave birth to their children. They were the mighty heroes of old, the famous men. (Gen. 6:1-4 NET)

"Sons of God" are angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7)

6 You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day.
7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7 NET)


For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (2 Pet. 2:4 NKJ)

The "prison" was a separate chamber in hell for these particular "spirits in prison." They aren't with either the wicked humans or angels, they have their own special place because they are special, they were the offspring of the angel-human "marriages", the "men of renown".

They weren't wicked, they were "formerly disobedient (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo)". "Disobedient is interpretation, not translation. 544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo means disbelieving, and that disbelief led them to "disobey".

They couldn't believe Noah's preaching, that God would forgive their "abomination", the image of God (Gen. 1:26-27) that was corrupted and defiled with the DNA of angels.

The "men of renown" likely built the megalithic structures that date before the flood, both on land and under the sea.


The technology used to build those structures is more advanced than what we have today. They were the offspring of both the Fallen angels (Nephilim) and the "sons of God", but not wicked.

The wicked offspring of angels (both Nephilim and sons of God) became unclean spirits who like disembodied demons, roam the earth possessing insects animals and men seeking a return to some semblance or corporeality they had before they died in the flood:

21 And all flesh died that moved on the earth: birds and cattle and beasts and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every man.
22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died.
23 So He destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive. (Gen. 7:21-23 NKJ)

All the Nephilim died in the flood.

In Numbers 13:33 the cowardly spies exaggerate calling the sons of Anak (a human) "Nephilim", to win the argument against Caleb. But it is possible traces of angelic DNA was in some of the survivors with Noah. Only he was said to be "perfect in his generations" (Gen. 6:9)

The eventual extinction of all the "giants" in the OT imply there was a divine plan to expunge the deviant DNA from the planet.

Nephilim Fallen Angels and the Sons of God | End Time News

The Nephilim: Satan's Fallen Angels 1 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the LORD said,

endtimenews.net

 

[Cnkw3]

Incorrect

Christ descended into hell:

9 (Now this, "He ascended "-- what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) (Eph. 4:9-10 NKJ)

That is confirmed by this context.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison (5438 φυλακή phulake),
20 who formerly were disobedient, (544 ἀπειθέω apeitheo) when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. (1 Pet. 3:18-20 NKJ)

It doesn’t say ”hell”. You said that. Bible writers had full access to the word “hell’ but they chose to use the word prison. That was not a word they typically used for hell. you are adding things to the text that are not there.
Christ, after he died, went to hades which has two sides. Torment and paradise. He went to paradise. Then he was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven. What we do know is….If he did any preaching in hades it wasn’t to save people. Their fate is already sealed. We know that from Lk 16. Abraham could have preached and saved the rich man because he was definitely sorry but he didnt. What makes you think anybody else will receive any better treatment?

 

[hawkman]

But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization.

No kidding .

That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

I am going to torture you till you love Me ? ! ? Edward , eddif , have you ever heard anything like this ?

 

[Alfred Persson]

No kidding .

I am going to torture you till you love Me ? ! ? Edward , eddif , have you ever heard anything like this ?

Never said or implied that. Those who die unsaved must pay for their sins done in the flesh. But the gospel is preached to them so they can repent and live according to God in the Spirit in Hell until the resurrection of the dead.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

So the torments in hell punish but also burn away self delusion and bondage to sin and perversion, restoring the soul's free will. They can then choose life or death. All who hear Christ's voice while in the grave and choose to do good, receive the resurrection of life. All who continue to disobey Christ rise to a resurrection of condemnation:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

It is written "it is appointed for all men to die once, and then there is a "trial/judgment". All who choose life in Christ then eagerly wait for His second coming so they can rise saved to a resurrection of life:


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)


The Catholic Church established the horrible doctrine of eternal punishment for all the unsaved, and then sought unscriptural ways to mitigate their error. Unfortunately Protestants inherited their mistakes, and didn't go back to the apostolic doctrine clearly revealed in the NT, that many of the Pharisees and Paul believed (Acts 23:6) in the Days of Christ.

Our LORD said there is treasure in some of the doctrines of the Pharisees:

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

The confirmation bias suppressing this glorious truth must be discarded.

The proof God's mercy extends to those in hell is clearly revealed throughout Holy Scripture:

Scripture where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

1 <To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.> I waited patiently for the LORD; And He inclined to me, And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit, Out of the miry clay, And set my feet upon a rock, And established my steps.
And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

This opens the possibility Billions of people can be saved, not just a few.

This is no open door to the wicked. Our Holy God cannot abide with sin. Scripture is clear and forthright; the unrighteous will not inherit God's Kingdom. Those who choose evil over holiness (Heb. 12:14), rebellion over repentance and confessing Jesus Christ as LORD, will be lost:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor. 6:9-10 KJV)

That is the purpose of Hell, to liberate those who are slaves to sin, restoring their free will so they can choose life in Christ rather than eternal death. Having been "judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Pet. 4:6), compare the similar wording in 1 Peter 3:18 θανατωθεὶς μὲν σαρκί, ζῳοποιηθεὶς δὲ πνεύματι "put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit". This implies the "trial/judgment/torment" in hades ends when sinners repent and "live according to God in the Spirit" (ζῶσιν δὲ κατὰ θεὸν πνεύματι). Their "spirit" quickened and enveloped by Holy Spirit (Compare "in which also" ἐν ᾧ καὶ 1 Pet. 3:19). Their "judgment" finished they eagerly wait for the return of Christ (Heb. 9:27-28) when their "spirit will be saved in the Day of the lord Jesus (cp. 1 Cor. 5:5) rising with all the dead on Judgment Day

 

[Runner]

Some weird stuff here. I recently finished Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by preeminent Christian philosophers J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig, so I've mentioned it several times. Their thesis is basically that God created the world that, of all possible worlds, would result in the "maximal good." Yes, there is hideous evil and many will be lost, but millions and millions in this same world have confronted the same horrors and turned to God in the exercise of their free will. With those, God has genuine communion and a genuine relationship that will last for eternity.

Surely Omniscient God would not create if most of those who come into existence, are lost forever. If a man built a factory that lost over 90% of its product, he would be labeled a fool.

We will never fully understand God's transcendent eternal perspective. To say what God "surely" would or would not have done is human pride. God wasn't building a factory and humans aren't products. We are beings with free will in what seems to be an environment that was intended by God to be morally challenging. The thesis I've set forth above is plausible - awful as this world often seems to us from our finite human perspective, God may know from his transcendent eternal perspective that it's the world that will achieve the maximal good. We will never explain mysteries like this in a logical, connect-the-dots sort of way, and it's futile to try.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Some weird stuff here. I recently finished Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview by preeminent Christian philosophers J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig, so I've mentioned it several times. Their thesis is basically that God created the world that, of all possible worlds, would result in the "maximal good." Yes, there is hideous evil and many will be lost, but millions and millions in this same world have confronted the same horrors and turned to God in the exercise of their free will. With those, God has genuine communion and a genuine relationship that will last for eternity.


We will never fully understand God's transcendent eternal perspective. To say what God "surely" would or would not have done is human pride. God wasn't building a factory and humans aren't products. We are beings with free will in what seems to be an environment that was intended by God to be morally challenging. The thesis I've set forth above is plausible - awful as this world often seems to us from our finite human perspective, God may know from his transcendent eternal perspective that it's the world that will achieve the maximal good. We will never explain mysteries like this in a logical, connect-the-dots sort of way, and it's futile to try.

You evaded the point. God created an infinite universe to save just a few? Is THAT what you believe?

Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." (Gen. 15:5 NKJ)

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
(Rom. 11:29-35 NKJ)


When our LORD was asked if few would be saved, He replied few of that generation who rejected Him would be, but the SAVED would pour in from all four corners of the earth:

23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 "When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying,`Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you,`I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 "then you will begin to say,`We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 "But He will say,`I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
28 "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out.
29 "They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 13:23-29 NKJ)

 

[hawkman]

That is the purpose of Hell, to liberate those who are slaves to sin,

So , Jesus dying on the cross was not good enough for you when you were alive , but now that you are dead Hell will save you ?

 

[eddif]

No kidding .

I am going to torture you till you love Me ? ! ? Edward , eddif , have you ever heard anything like this ?

This is rat bait theology.
Rat bait:
Food to attract
Poison to kill
Dumb rat

The rich man and Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom:
Shows intellect in the grave
Shows a good place of comfort
Shows a bad place of torment

1 Peter 3:19 kjv
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

IMHO:
Rich man chose flesh
Lazarus chose God, but did not know Jesus.

Abraham tells of life choices.

Torment exists:
Fair indicator of the end the rich man faces.

If everyone was sitting around a table on equal ground we might give everyone an equal chance at eternal life.

Does it tell of all I said? No. Did I give the ability for individuals to consider the matter? I believe I did.

eddif

 

[Hopeful]

I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

I can't agree with that, as it is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Heb 9:27)
Were your POV correct, it would read..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the second chance, but after this the judgment:"
If there was a second chance, why not a third and fourth?

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

This verse refutes any second chance.
Death, resurrection, judgement.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

The "dead" of this verse are those of 1 Peter 1:9-12; the prophets of the OT and those who heard them.
"Prison" is the word used for "grave".

3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)

"spirit" (small 's') is the word Paul used to describe the "church"

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

There is no purgatory.

 

[Hopeful]

Heb 9 says nothing about preaching to people after they are dead. There is no 1 Pet 6

If you are right then why didn’t Abraham preach to the man and help him out? This man new his fate was sealed and he did not want the same for his family.

...and it was just a parable...to illustrate that very point.