Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Runner]

You evaded the point. God created an infinite universe to save just a few? Is THAT what you believe?

I've now watched your video three times. It's very well-produced and I admire the effort, but I believe the theology is somewhat incoherent.

You keep using the term "the elect" and "predestination," but it seems throughout most of the video that these terms aren't being used in a Calvinistic sense. You seem to be talking about "corporate predestination," whereby God predestined that all who turned to him through Christ would be saved. They join "the elect" only after they turn to Christ. At the end of the video there is some confusion about this, which I address below.

I don't disagree that if God wished to create humans with whom he could enjoy genuine communion in a loving relationship, he had to give them libertarian free will and risk the possibility that some would reject him. You say this created a "dilemma" for God - incur the risk or not create at all. By your theology, approximately 1/3 will be lost, an analogy to 1/3 of the angels supposedly having fallen.

The only thing your theology seems to add to existing theology, Calvinistic or non-Calvinistic, is that people who don't hear the Gospel at all or who reject it in this lifetime because they are deceived by evil will be given an opportunity to join the elect after they experience the torments of Hell. From my debates with Universalists, after-death salvation is a standard part of the theology of many of them. What you suggest is exactly what they posit: No one who experiences Hell will rationally reject God.

Your theology is much narrower. The torments of Hell will merely cause "the elect" who didn't join the body of Christ in this lifetime do so after death. Even the torments of Hell will not convince the 1/3 who are destined to be lost. This then begins to sound as though you are talking about "the elect" in some Calvinistic sense. If not, why don't the other 1/3 come to their senses as well? It's difficult to make sense of this unless there is something special about the elect.

One problem, of course, is that after-death repentance has never been part of orthodox Christianity. What's the point of this life if we get a second chance after death? The whole point of the mysterious way God operates in this world, giving only hints and clues to his existence, is (I believe) that he doesn't want to coerce belief. He really does want us to come to him of our own free will. The torments of Hell would be the ultimate coercion. Who in the torments of Hell is really going to be exercising his or her own free will?

To me, your theology would only make sense if it were Calvinistic: the elect are so fully predestined that God will make sure they are saved even if the blow it in this lifetime. To me, this would add nothing to Calvinism, which says the elect will hear and respond in this lifetime. Anyone who doesn't hear or respond simply wasn't elect.

I'm also puzzled has to how you think 1/3 being lost is some great improvement on what I suggested. I simply said that Moreland's and Craig's thesis is that the world we have is the one in which God decided maximal good would be accomplished. Some - many - will indeed be lost, but this is the price of producing X number of humans who do respond to God. You simply add that "only" 1/3 will be lost and that there will be an opportunity to join the elect from the torments of Hell.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So , Jesus dying on the cross was not good enough for you when you were alive , but now that you are dead Hell will save you ?

Mischaracterizing my argument is the best way to lose the argument. Hell doesn''t save anyone, nor can those who repent in hell leave until Judgment Day, when Death and Hell are emptied out:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Only those who refused to repent and believe in Jesus are not found written in the Book of life, judged worthy of the lake of fire.

Its Judgment Day, not "condemnation day". Those who heard Christ's voice and did good repenting and believing in Him, rise to a resurrection of life:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

But those who repent and believe in Hell have their spirit saved during the Resurrection, in the Day of Christ:

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ)

 

[eddif]

Mischaracterizing my argument is the best way to lose the argument. Hell doesn''t save anyone, nor can those who repent in hell leave until Judgment Day, when Death and Hell are emptied out:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ)

Only those who refused to repent and believe in Jesus are not found written in the Book of life, judged worthy of the lake of fire.

Abraham’s bosom (who heard the gospel) will be emptied and transported to the sheep side.

IMHO:
Torment will be emptied and ultimately end up in the lake of fire.

Rednecks are just KIS
Keep it simple

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

Nothing more than Cessationism

 

[for_his_glory]

Never said or implied that. Those who die unsaved must pay for their sins done in the flesh. But the gospel is preached to them so they can repent and live according to God in the Spirit in Hell until the resurrection of the dead.

Dead is dead and there is no more chance for those who died that were not Christ own.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus never went down to hell (lower parts of the earth/grave) to preach as scripture says He went to preach to the spirits in prison. When Jesus laid in the tomb for three days his body was dead, but His spirit was very much alive. In 1 Peter 3:19 it says Jesus being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit went and preached to the spirits in prison. The spirits in prison that Jesus went to preach to are those angels that are reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Scripture does not say what Jesus preached to them, but some speculate that He was proclaiming to these fallen angels that Satan had no victory over His death. These angels are separate from the third Satan gathered with him as these angels bound in chains kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day, Jude 1:5-7.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men means that those who were a slave to sin are now given the free gift of God's grace through Christ as being the fulfillment of the Temple sacrifices. The lower parts of the earth just means the grave being underground.

These angels that have been bound and chained in prison until the day of judgement, Jesus was making show of them openly, triumphing over them in it, Colossians 2:13-15. This means that those who come to Jesus their sin is blotted out having spoiled these angels (principalities and power) who caused men to sin and that they too will be judged and cast into the lake of fire reserved for Satan and his angels.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Dead is dead and there is no more chance for those who died that were not Christ own.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Then how did some "come forth unto the resurrection of life" in John 5:29?

Why is the book of life opened if some judged weren't written in it? If dead is dead as you say, it should have remained closed.

 

[for_his_glory]

Then how did some "come forth unto the resurrection of life" in John 5:29?

Why is the book of life opened if some judged weren't written in it? If dead is dead as you say, it should have remained closed.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Pretty much self explanatory. Those who did good being of God's own when they physically died will be raised to eternal life. Those who did evil that were not God's own will resurrect from the grave as they have damned themselves and will be cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, pretty much self explanatory as we see there are books opened, but only one of those books is the Book of Life where the names of all that are God's/Christ own are found written in the Book of Life. Whoever's names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.

This proves the false doctrine of those that have died will be given any second chances while laying in their graves.

 

[Runner]

Alfred Persson

Odd - after accusing me of "evading" your point, you seem to have pointedly "avoided" my pretty thorough response.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson

Odd - after accusing me of "evading" your point, you seem to have pointedly "avoided" my pretty thorough response.

I apologize. I'll check it out now.

 

[Runner]

I apologize. I'll check it out now.

No problem. I thought maybe I had left you speechless!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson

Odd - after accusing me of "evading" your point, you seem to have pointedly "avoided" my pretty thorough response.

Part I, Part II follows
>I've now watched your video three times. It's very well-produced
>and I admire the effort, but I believe the theology is somewhat
>incoherent.
It's a summary, leaving much detail out. Perhaps this blog will clarify:

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? | End Time News

What if the Bible Teaches Both Predestination and Free Will? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood...

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>
>You keep using the term "the elect" and "predestination," but it
>seems throughout most of the video that these terms aren't being
>used in a Calvinistic sense. You seem to be talking about
>"corporate predestination," whereby God predestined that all who
>turned to him through Christ would be saved. They join "the
>elect" only after they turn to Christ. At the end of the video
>there is some confusion about this, which I address below.

Although I agree with elements of Calvinism, I'm not a Calvinist. Nor do I speak of "corporate predestination". God knows perfectly each one He predestined onto salvation.

Not explained completely in the video is that God's Omniscience is total, before God created He knew two versions of everyone who would come into existence, the "unfallen version" (if the fall never happened) and the "fallen version" (that actually came into existence).

Before God created, In His Omniscient knowing, where every creature's will was absolutely free of any delusion or slavery to sin because of the Fall: some loved God back in response to His love, others did not.

Foreknowledge is a function of Omniscience. God doesn't "see the future to know it", He already knows all things. When God "foreknew" the elect, He experienced them "before" all the others. Like "highlighted text" they rose above everyone else, and God loved them even more.

Knowing that many of these would become lost in a fallen corrupt world, God predestines them to be conformed to His Son, otherwise God would mourn their loss for all eternity. Only with predestination preventing the certain loss of many if not most of those He foreknew could God create:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

Notice those who did not love God are not mentioned at all. God did not predestine them at all. They remain truly free to choose life with God, in this life or the next (provided they did not commit eternal sins like accepting the Mark of the Beast or Blaspheming the Holy Spirit etc.)
>
>I don't disagree that if God wished to create humans with whom he
>could enjoy genuine communion in a loving relationship, he had to
>give them libertarian free will and risk the possibility that
>some would reject him. You say this created a "dilemma" for God -
>incur the risk or not create at all. By your theology,
>approximately 1/3 will be lost, an analogy to 1/3 of the angels
>supposedly having fallen.
>
>The only thing your theology seems to add to existing theology,
>Calvinistic or non-Calvinistic, is that people who don't hear the
>Gospel at all or who reject it in this lifetime because they are
>deceived by evil will be given an opportunity to join the elect
>after they experience the torments of Hell. From my debates with
>Universalists, after-death salvation is a standard part of the
>theology of many of them. What you suggest is exactly what they
>posit: No one who experiences Hell will rationally reject God.

I don't agree. When the torments of hell refine, so all self delusion and slavery to sin permits the soul to make a free will choice, those who do not love God His righteousness His Light won't be able to fake it.

Also the premise the Lake of Fire = eternal torment is incorrect. It's the "second death" (Rev. 20:14) from which there is no resurrection/return. While Satan, demons, Beast, False prophet are eternally tormented in the fire, others will be only punished for a time, and others will immediately be annihilated.

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment? | End Time News

Does the Lake of Fire Symbolize Eternal Torment for all cast into it? When “Death and Hades” are cast into the lake of fire” they are destroyed (1 Cor. 15:26), but the Devil, Beast and False Prophet receive eternal torment (Rev. 20:10). These different fates require the symbolism of a consuming...

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Many fundamental premises of hell and predestination, were established by the Catholic Church. They did not have the benefit of Palestinian Jewish Christians to inform them of the TREASURE that existed in some of the traditions of the Pharisees:

51 Jesus said to them, "Have you understood all these things?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord."
52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:51-52 NKJ)

Many Pharisees (like the apostle Paul Acts 23:6) believed there are three classes of mankind: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling" or "To be determined". This view is explains why there are multiple books opened on Judgment Day (Rev. 20:12):
[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Therefore, election unto salvation does NOT mean those not selected are reprobated. Reprobation is NOT the corollary of Election and those not selected have every opportunity to repent and join the Elect of God.

For more:

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>
>Your theology is much narrower. The torments of Hell will merely
>cause "the elect" who didn't join the body of Christ in this
>lifetime do so after death. Even the torments of Hell will not
>convince the 1/3 who are destined to be lost.

Whether the analogy to angels holds up, time will tell. The children of the Devil are such because that is who they are, they won't repent. Only the "Middling people" or "undetermined" will go both ways. The Elect cannot lose their salvation, if they could God would not have created. He would not create a situation where He mourns the loss of His children for all eternity.

I think you should visit my site, check out these blogs on Hell etc., and perhaps then the summary of the video will be seen in the proper light:

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Jesus Preached to the Dead | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Jesus preached to the dead 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the

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>This then begins to
>sound as though you are talking about "the elect" in some
>Calvinistic sense. If not, why don't the other 1/3 come to their
>senses as well? It's difficult to make sense of this unless there
>is something special about the elect.
>

 

[Alfred Persson]

I apologize. I'll check it out now.

No problem. I thought maybe I had left you speechless!

Those who know me realize that can never happen!
Part II

>One problem, of course, is that after-death repentance has never
>been part of orthodox Christianity. What's the point of this life
>if we get a second chance after death? The whole point of the
>mysterious way God operates in this world, giving only hints and
>clues to his existence, is (I believe) that he doesn't want to
>coerce belief. He really does want us to come to him of our own
>free will. The torments of Hell would be the ultimate coercion.
>Who in the torments of Hell is really going to be exercising his
>or her own free will?
>
I disagree. Orthodox Christianity of the apostolic era was not in total disagreement with the scribes and Pharisees who became Christians like the apostle Paul. The possibility of repentance in hell is clearly evident in the NT:

31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)

Hence it is written a "judgment" occurs after physical death, and some of those judged then eagerly wait in hell for Christ's return to be saved:

27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this cometh judgment (2920 krisis);
28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 ASV)

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ) [6]

deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 NKJ) [6a]

Those who repent in Hades when they "hear" (= obey John 5:24; Lk. 10:16) Christ's voice, are still in the grave and it therefore is possible for them to "do good" and rise to a resurrection of life, as this "telescoped prophecy" plainly says (John 5:28-29):

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

Therefore, Catholic-Protestant confirmation bias that refuses to accept scripture that repentance in Hell is possible must be rejected as unsound.

Scriptures where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit (0953 bowr). (Lam. 3:55 NKJ)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (0953 bowr), out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

>To me, your theology would only make sense if it were
>Calvinistic: the elect are so fully predestined that God will
>make sure they are saved even if the blow it in this lifetime. To
>me, this would add nothing to Calvinism, which says the elect
>will hear and respond in this lifetime. Anyone who doesn't hear
>or respond simply wasn't elect.

But Calvinism reprobates the non-elect, and that clearly is contradicted in many texts that declare its our choice.

AND the only way everyone can choose to accept or reject Christ, is if those who never heard about Him in this life, or heard incorrectly, hear the truth after they die.

>
>I'm also puzzled has to how you think 1/3 being lost is some
>great improvement on what I suggested. I simply said that
>Moreland's and Craig's thesis is that the world we have is the
>one in which God decided maximal good would be accomplished. Some
>- many - will indeed be lost, but this is the price of producing
>X number of humans who do respond to God. You simply add that
>"only" 1/3 will be lost and that there will be an opportunity to
>join the elect from the torments of Hell.

My thesis doesn't depend on the analogy to angels, its just an analogy. BUT just as the number of elect angles can't be counted, neither can the descendants of Abraham:

Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." (Gen. 15:5 NKJ)

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (Rev. 7:9 KJV)

And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (Lk. 13:29 KJV)

Jesus Preached to the Dead | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Jesus preached to the dead 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the

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Preaching to the Dead (Postmortem Evangelism) | End Time News

Postmortem Evangelism: Billions died without Christ. Has death separated them from the love of God? "No", says Paul the apostle: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life... shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom. 8:38-39 NKJ) The Gospel...

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[Alfred Persson]

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Pretty much self explanatory. Those who did good being of God's own when they physically died will be raised to eternal life. Those who did evil that were not God's own will resurrect from the grave as they have damned themselves and will be cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, pretty much self explanatory as we see there are books opened, but only one of those books is the Book of Life where the names of all that are God's/Christ own are found written in the Book of Life. Whoever's names are not found written in the Book of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.

This proves the false doctrine of those that have died will be given any second chances while laying in their graves.

>Alfred Persson said: Then how did some "come forth unto the
>resurrection of life" in John 5:29?
>Why is the book of life opened if some judged weren't written in
>it? If dead is dead as you say, it should have remained closed.

>John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto
>the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the
>resurrection of damnation.
>
>Pretty much self explanatory. Those who did good being of God's
>own when they physically died will be raised to eternal life.
>Those who did evil that were not God's own will resurrect from
>the grave as they have damned themselves and will be cast into
>the lake of fire.

But Christ puts the time of their doing good or evil while they are in the grave, AFTER they hear His voice. Then on Judgment Day they come forth, those who did good while in the grave to a resurrection of life.
>
>Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;
>and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is
>the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things
>which were written in the books, according to their works. Rev
>20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death
>and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were
>judged every man according to their works. Rev 20:14 And death
>and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second
>death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book
>of life was cast into the lake of fire.
>
>Again, pretty much self explanatory as we see there are books
>opened, but only one of those books is the Book of Life where the
>names of all that are God's/Christ own are found written in the
>Book of Life. Whoever's names are not found written in the Book
>of Life will be cast into the lake of fire.
>
But there are other books you completely ignore. The reason for multiple books was known to John and Paul and most Jews of Jesus' day:

The Pharisees believed there were three classes of People on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling" or "To be determined" and this required the existence of multiple "books":

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, "Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
"The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] "The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] "Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] "If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] "If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death."
[G] Said R. Abin, "What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: 'Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.' 'Let them be blotted out of the book'-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. '[… of the] living'-this refers to the book of the righteous. 'Let them not be inscribed among the righteous'-this refers to the book of middling [people]."-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Before you reject this, recall Jesus said some of the tradition of the Pharisees was treasure:

Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

>This proves the false doctrine of those that have died will be
>given any second chances while laying in their graves.
The Scripture clearly teaches repentance in hell is possible:

Scriptures where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit (0953 bowr). (Lam. 3:55 NKJ)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (0953 bowr), out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

 

[Alfred Persson]

I can't agree with that, as it is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Heb 9:27)
Were your POV correct, it would read..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the second chance, but after this the judgment:"
If there was a second chance, why not a third and fourth?

This verse refutes any second chance.
Death, resurrection, judgement.

The "dead" of this verse are those of 1 Peter 1:9-12; the prophets of the OT and those who heard them.
"Prison" is the word used for "grave".

"spirit" (small 's') is the word Paul used to describe the "church"

There is no purgatory.

>Alfred Persson said:
>I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

>Hopeful said
>I can't agree with that, as it is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Heb 9:27)
>Were your POV correct, it would read..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the second chance, but after this the judgment:"
>If there was a second chance, why not a third and fourth?

That would be redundant as those who go through the trial after death then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming FOR salvation.


>Alfred Persson said:
>28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
>29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>This verse refutes any second chance.
>Death, resurrection, judgement.

On the contrary, Jesus said these hear His voice while still in the grave = hell. Those who obey what they heard, do good and rise to a resurrection of life.


>Alfred Persson said:
>For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


>Hopeful said
>The "dead" of this verse are those of 1 Peter 1:9-12; the prophets of the OT and those who heard them.
>"Prison" is the word used for "grave".

Not according to context. Its the same dead God judges:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)


>Alfred Persson said:
>3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
>4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
>5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
>(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>"spirit" (small 's') is the word Paul used to describe the "church"

That's eisegetical. "to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23 NKJ)

In context Paul says Satan will kill this sinner, destroy his flesh. Paul hope this leads to his salvation, "that his spirit may be saved". The day of the LORD Jesus is Judgment Day, when all appear before the throne of Christ:

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: (2 Tim. 4:1 NKJ)



>Alfred Persson said:
>27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
>28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>There is no purgatory.

Scripture speaks of the refining fire, purgatory is a Catholic term.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech. 13:9 KJV)

 

[eddif]

Tw

>Alfred Persson said:
>I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

>Hopeful said
>I can't agree with that, as it is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Heb 9:27)
>Were your POV correct, it would read..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the second chance, but after this the judgment:"
>If there was a second chance, why not a third and fourth?

That would be redundant as those who go through the trial after death then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming FOR salvation.


>Alfred Persson said:
>28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
>29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>This verse refutes any second chance.
>Death, resurrection, judgement.

On the contrary, Jesus said these hear His voice while still in the grave = hell. Those who obey what they heard, do good and rise to a resurrection of life.


>Alfred Persson said:
>For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


>Hopeful said
>The "dead" of this verse are those of 1 Peter 1:9-12; the prophets of the OT and those who heard them.
>"Prison" is the word used for "grave".

Not according to context. Its the same dead God judges:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)


>Alfred Persson said:
>3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
>4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
>5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
>(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>"spirit" (small 's') is the word Paul used to describe the "church"

That's eisegetical. "to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23 NKJ)

In context Paul says Satan will kill this sinner, destroy his flesh. Paul hope this leads to his salvation, "that his spirit may be saved". The day of the LORD Jesus is Judgment Day, when all appear before the throne of Christ:

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: (2 Tim. 4:1 NKJ)



>Alfred Persson said:
>27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
>28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>There is no purgatory.

Scripture speaks of the refining fire, purgatory is a Catholic term.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech. 13:9 KJV)

Two births
One human
One spiritual

Two works
One flesh
One by / through Christ Jesus

Two forms of reasoning
One Carnal
One through mind of Christ

Two leadings
One through God
One through evil

eddif

 

[Hopeful]

This is rat bait theology.
Rat bait:
Food to attract
Poison to kill
Dumb rat

The rich man and Lazarus in Abraham’s bosom:
Shows intellect in the grave
Shows a good place of comfort
Shows a bad place of torment

1 Peter 3:19 kjv
19. By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

IMHO:
Rich man chose flesh
Lazarus chose God, but did not know Jesus.

Abraham tells of life choices.

Torment exists:
Fair indicator of the end the rich man faces.

If everyone was sitting around a table on equal ground we might give everyone an equal chance at eternal life.

Does it tell of all I said? No. Did I give the ability for individuals to consider the matter? I believe I did.

eddif

>Alfred Persson said:
>I agree. But we likely disagree about postmortem evangelization. That the torments of Hell do more than punish for sin, they refine by burning away all self delusion and bondage to sin, so the dead can repent and confess belief in Christ for salvation. Then on Judgment Day they rise to a resurrection of life:

>Hopeful said
>I can't agree with that, as it is written..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: " (Heb 9:27)
>Were your POV correct, it would read..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, then the second chance, but after this the judgment:"
>If there was a second chance, why not a third and fourth?

That would be redundant as those who go through the trial after death then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming FOR salvation.


>Alfred Persson said:
>28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
>29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>This verse refutes any second chance.
>Death, resurrection, judgement.

On the contrary, Jesus said these hear His voice while still in the grave = hell. Those who obey what they heard, do good and rise to a resurrection of life.


>Alfred Persson said:
>For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)


>Hopeful said
>The "dead" of this verse are those of 1 Peter 1:9-12; the prophets of the OT and those who heard them.
>"Prison" is the word used for "grave".

Not according to context. Its the same dead God judges:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)


>Alfred Persson said:
>3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
>4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
>5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
>(1 Cor. 5:3-5 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>"spirit" (small 's') is the word Paul used to describe the "church"

That's eisegetical. "to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12:23 NKJ)

In context Paul says Satan will kill this sinner, destroy his flesh. Paul hope this leads to his salvation, "that his spirit may be saved". The day of the LORD Jesus is Judgment Day, when all appear before the throne of Christ:

I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: (2 Tim. 4:1 NKJ)



>Alfred Persson said:
>27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
>28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-10:1 NKJ)

>Hopeful said
>There is no purgatory.

Scripture speaks of the refining fire, purgatory is a Catholic term.

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech. 13:9 KJV)

We just don't see eye to eye on this topic.
There are many more topics though, so TTYL.

 

[Cnkw3]

...and it was just a parable...to illustrate that very point.

I dont agree that it was a parable. It doesn’t follow the standard parable pattern. I believe Jesus was giving us a glimpse for our edification

 

[Runner]

Those who know me realize that can never happen!

Thanks for the lengthy response. I'll just offer some general comments and move on.

• Neither Revelation nor End Times speculation is a big part of my Christian life. As Bob Dylan said, "You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." I believe Jesus gave enough guidance In Matthew 24. For whatever Revelation may be worth - it's inclusion in the Bible was controversial - I believe it receives way too much attention and is mostly a distraction from what Christianity should be about.
  
  
• You've obviously put a great deal of effort and thought into constructing your theology. I respect the effort and am experienced enough to realize debating it would go nowhere. Perhaps selfishly, I concern myself with my own salvation and my own relationship with God and mostly let others worry about theirs.
  
  
• Christianity is rife with huge mysteries that aren't easily explained away. The fate of those who never heard or will never hear the Gospel message is one of them. In addition, many technically "hear" the Gospel message but, due to circumstances of upbringing and culture, are unlikely to hear it in any meaningful way or to respond positively. I'm content to live with this mystery. If I had to guess, my guess would be that our understanding of Christian exclusivity, of what it means for Jesus to be the only way by which people come to the Father, is flawed.
  
  
• My Christianity is, to the maximum extent possible (which is certainly not 100%), rational and evidence-based. I'm rational enough to recognize that naturalistic atheism could be ontologically true, as could Buddhism or any other ism. The mainstream understanding of Christianity - my understanding, for that matter - might be only 70% or 40% ontologically true. I thus don't believe that trying to construct a connect-the-dots theology is productive. To paraphrase Thoreau, I prefer my Christianity with wide margins.
  
  
• Your theology does eliminate some of the problems, but I believe it does so at too great a price. If the opportunity to turn to God continues after death, it makes this lifetime almost pointless. If God were going to allow conversion after his existence and the reality of Hell were 100% evidential certainties, why would he not have made these things 100% certainties from the day of the Fall? I guarantee you, if these things had been made 100% certainties from the day of the Fall, the number of lost would be miniscule and God would have resolved his "dilemma" far more successfully than your theology posits. The reason God didn't and doesn't do this is obvious: It would be coercive, and the supposed "free will" decisions to turn to God would be coerced ones. The same would be true of a post-death, sitting-in-Hell "conversion."
  
  
• As with Once Saved Always Saved theology, Universalism and the progressive theology that posits a warm-and-fuzzy, endlessly tolerant Jesus, your theology is dangerously misleading if it isn't true. If people believe they have a post-death opportunity at conversion, it's a simple fact that they are likely to take the importance of a decision in this lifetime far less seriously. I'm wary of any theology with this potential, not to mention any theology that is far outside the mainstream of what Christianity has been for 2,000 years. Hence, my preference is just to live with the mystery.

BTW, my reference to "orthodox" theology was in the sense of "mainstream." I'm very familiar with Orthodox theology, which does have a universalistic strand as exemplified by nominally Orthodox theologians like David Bentley Hart - but this is a fringe strand, and your theology couldn't be described as conventionally Orthodox.

With that, I'll bow out and wish you well.

 

[for_his_glory]

>Alfred Persson said: Then how did some "come forth unto the
>resurrection of life" in John 5:29?
>Why is the book of life opened if some judged weren't written in
>it? If dead is dead as you say, it should have remained closed.

What you are speaking about that happened over 2000 years ago was that many, not all, were raised from the grave when the earth quaked and Jesus yielded up the Ghost. They were brought back to life and entered into the city, not heaven, so others would know Jesus as in "I am Lord" as only Jesus has power to raise anyone from the dead. This is what caused the centurion and many that were with him to believe this was the Son of God that hung on the cross.

These verses below only say many, not all were raised from the dead. You can not put an actual number to many.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. 51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

It's only God's own that have their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. All the other books contain the names of those who rejected God and walked in disobedience to His commands as the books are opened on the day of God's final judgement that is called the Great White Throne judgement.

But Christ puts the time of their doing good or evil while they are in the grave, AFTER they hear His voice. Then on Judgment Day they come forth, those who did good while in the grave to a resurrection of life.

All who are in the grave up to the time of Christ return either have their names written in the Lamb's book of life and they will receive eternal life with Him. All those whose names are not found in the book of life have already damned themselves and will be cast into the lake of fire. This all happens on the last day when Christ returns and everyone will stand before the Lord as Christ separates the sheep from the goats and final judgements are rendered.

The Pharisees believed there were three classes of People on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the "Middling" or "To be determined" and this required the existence of multiple "books":

Do you really think that it is worth believing the Pharisees, the ones who killed the Prophets and Jesus. There are only the righteous or the wicked. There is no middling.