What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

could Jerusalem be the harlot?

veteran said:
[It's kind of right under your nose brother, since you showed by your posts in the ten kings thread about the building in Israel funded by the Rothchilds. The phrase, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT..." is especially about the inner secret workings of men behind closed doors, like what deceived Israel was doing behind closed doors in Ezekiel 8. The original origin of the society of Masonry is Jewish, dating back to Solomon's Temple, and the workers king David and king Solomon hired, but from where? Ancient Babylon before that is where the mystical teachings of the ancient 'mysteries' originated. Those teachings are directly opposed to God's Truth.

Nothing wrong with hoping for only good things for Jerusalem on earth. But in that hope we are not to be deceived about what's coming to Jerusalem in the last days prior to Christ's return, as given by our Heavenly Father through His prophets and by our Lord Jesus and His Apostles. If you do a line upon line study of the OT prophets, you'll see what I'm talking about. But actually, what Paul showed in 2 Thess.2 about a false temple with a false one sitting in it, and many other related Scriptures that link to that, that should be enought to see what's meant for Jerusalem in the last days.
Click to expand...

Once again, I agree with you regarding Israel's fall into apostasy and Babylonian mysticism. This is all true. But I don't see how Israel has pulled the world into it. Freemasontry started with Nimrod, Semiramis and Taamuz (who the women were weeping for in Ezek 8) in Babylon itself. It all goes back to Babylon. And thats why the Harlot is named Babylon. The mystery religions are everywhere. Hinduism, which is a clear offshoot of Babylonian Mysteries has deceived billions of people! Why aren't Hindu nations then the Harlot? Same for America with its freemasonic capitol filled with occult imagery everywhere right down to the giant obelisk that by law has to be the tallest structure in the city. Or England, the world capital of witchcraft and home of the Rothschilds. All these are worthy candidates based on your standards.

But that's why the Bible provides more detail. And I just don't see Israel being drunk with the blood of the saints or ruling over the Kings of the earth. If you're trying to argue that Israel is steeped in Mystery Babylon, I'm with you. It's the other parts I just don't see.
 
Vic C. said:
Those who doubt what we say, please, if you are interested in more than the most popular beliefs and if you are interested in some Biblical truth, read this:

http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rev1718.htm

Hey, you wanted Biblical proof for our position, that site lists them all! :salute

See this as well:

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseact ... arlot-.htm
Click to expand...

This from the site that states your "position.":

Proof #2.

The Pharisees of Jerusalem killed Stephen who was the first of "the martyrs of Jesus". Any other interpretation of who the woman is, if it does not include the Jewish religious leaders in the time of Jesus, including the Jewish religious leaders who killed the Old Testament prophets (Rev 18:24), is therefore incorrect.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Stephen, the first Christian martyr, fingers the council at Jerusalem as the murderers of the prophets, and they were so angry they killed Stephen, too:

Act 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

Jesus speaks harsh words to the leaders of Jerusalem, saying they are worse than harlots, and also says that "Jeursalem kills the prophets":

Mat 21:31 "...Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.
Mat 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Luk 13:31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
Luk 13:33 Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
Luk 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Luk 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Click to expand...

They only name ONE martyr of Jesus that was killed by the Pharisees (who I guess we must equate with "Jerusalem", even though the ringleader who consented to Stephen's death was not even from Jerusalem, but was a Roman citizen from Tarsus by the name of Saul).

So again, on this one point, the Jerusalem idea fails.
 
NJBeliever said:
Once again, I agree with you regarding Israel's fall into apostasy and Babylonian mysticism. This is all true. But I don't see how Israel has pulled the world into it. Freemasontry started with Nimrod, Semiramis and Taamuz (who the women were weeping for in Ezek 8) in Babylon itself. It all goes back to Babylon. And thats why the Harlot is named Babylon. The mystery religions are everywhere. Hinduism, which is a clear offshoot of Babylonian Mysteries has deceived billions of people! Why aren't Hindu nations then the Harlot? Same for America with its freemasonic capitol filled with occult imagery everywhere right down to the giant obelisk that by law has to be the tallest structure in the city. Or England, the world capital of witchcraft and home of the Rothschilds. All these are worthy candidates based on your standards.

But that's why the Bible provides more detail. And I just don't see Israel being drunk with the blood of the saints or ruling over the Kings of the earth. If you're trying to argue that Israel is steeped in Mystery Babylon, I'm with you. It's the other parts I just don't see.
Click to expand...

And if another Jewish temple is built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, with a false messiah playing our Lord Jesus, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, and an idol image of the beast setup for all the world to worship? What then?

All that's not there yet in Jerusalem, but that's what is prophesied for her prior to Christ's return. In Isaiah 1 God called the rulers in Jerusalem when they had fallen into the paganism of other nations "ye rulers of Sodom", and the people "ye people of Gomorrah." That's the same kind of symbolic naming in Rev.11:8 about the city where God's two witnesses are to be killed. And indeed, the city where false messiah sets up his main headquarters over the whole earth will definitely fit the idea of the woman harlot city of Rev.17:18. If all that happenned in NY or Rome it would fit there, but God's Word reveals the false messiah and abomination of desolation is to be setup in a Jerusalem temple.
 
It all pionts to Jerusalem, the smoke of her burning can been seen, and like the lake of fire,
in the spiritual realm goes up for ever, rev 1-3 the harlot Jerusalem never to raise again.
Jesus restores Jerusalem to the faithfull city , after his retrun and reign, for one thousand years.
then we have a new heaven a new earth and a new Jerusalem, the city that God built.

I think there is an ironic twist to this story, im still trying to see the picture, if the king comes from the north, three and a half years , before the kings of the East arrive the battle of Armageddon,

when does the anti christ begin his reign from Jerusalem, as he will.?
the twist being many in Israel will be decieved, believing they got it right, and that Jesus was the imposter, and the anti christ is the one they have been waiting for.
for the whole world will go after the beast and worship his image.

Jerusalem becomes as Babylon, such is the ruler, anti christ, and the image, sound familier,
babylon , worship the image or end up in the furnace.
Gods judgement agaisnt the harlot Jerusalem, the anti christ.
johnny
 
johnny botwright said:
It all pionts to Jerusalem, the smoke of her burning can been seen, and like the lake of fire,
in the spiritual realm goes up for ever, rev 1-3 the harlot Jerusalem never to raise again.
Jesus restores Jerusalem to the faithfull city , after his retrun and reign, for one thousand years.
then we have a new heaven a new earth and a new Jerusalem, the city that God built.

I think there is an ironic twist to this story, im still trying to see the picture, if the king comes from the north, three and a half years , before the kings of the East arrive the battle of Armageddon,

when does the anti christ begin his reign from Jerusalem, as he will.?
the twist being many in Israel will be decieved, believing they got it right, and that Jesus was the imposter, and the anti christ is the one they have been waiting for.
for the whole world will go after the beast and worship his image.

Jerusalem becomes as Babylon, such is the ruler, anti christ, and the image, sound familier,
babylon , worship the image or end up in the furnace.
Gods judgement agaisnt the harlot Jerusalem, the anti christ.
johnny
Click to expand...
His palace will remain in the north.
The king of the north doesnt rule from Jerusalem.He just moves his embassy there.

Daniel 11;45

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;yet he shall come to his end,and none shall help him.

Hes already been talking about it and the Israeli goverment is all for this move.
 
veteran said:
And if another Jewish temple is built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, with a false messiah playing our Lord Jesus, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, and an idol image of the beast setup for all the world to worship? What then?

All that's not there yet in Jerusalem, but that's what is prophesied for her prior to Christ's return..
Click to expand...

Now this is something that makes sense to me. If you are now asserting that it's a future Jerusalem that is the harlot, that could be a possibility.

The reasons for why I'd disagree with it is just the timing of it with Revelation. By the time the antichrist is in power installing his one-world religion of worship of him in the city of Jerusalem (the abomination), the Jews will be on the run. The gig is up and the deception is up. They know he's not the Messiah and that they've been suckered.

I also think that at the start of the 70th week that Israel spiritually will be turning back to God. They will be worshiping in the Hebraic tradition (sacrifice and oblation), but still not looking to Christ. So if anything,there will be LESS of the occultic/masonic stuff going on.

But again, I do think this theory make sense but it just runs into a few conflicts with other scripture.
 
it is my hearts desire, that we can draw on our understanding, with the Lords wisdom, and create the correct picture, we then know how to pray and what to pray for concerning Israel.
If the storm is coming, and its heading for Israel, we need to be faithful watchmen, and blow the trumpet in zion. sound the alarm, and warn the people, like wise those around us.
this same debate is taken place also at http://www.prophecytalk.com
again some intresting replys,
Jewish believers visit this sight.
the same debate also on http://www.talkjesus.com which has become a bit short sighted and one sided.
if we can put the pieces together correctly, given us all a clearer understanding and insight.
the problem being there are scriptures that we can use that back up each side of the debate,
the first few chapters of Jeremiah are very powerfull, as also with Ezekiel
are we taken scriptures out of context and applying them to future events, or are they relevent and in context, lets pray, seek and we shall find, you shall know the truth, and the truth will set us free.
and hopefully our conclusion will be a better understanding of end time events, particularly, where ISREAL IS CONCERNED .
is Jerusalem the Harlot, she could be, God in the past referred to Israel, Jerusalem as the harlot,
some teach the catholic church, ten heads the E.U europe, old roman empire, some feel the usa, new york.
will Israel see the anti christ as the one they have been waiting for, and be deceived?
Jesus in Mathew 24 ses let the reader understand, how many Jews are going to be reading or have a knowledge of the new testement. or will understand its time to flee to the mountains.
Will Israel Jerusalem be captured?
if so when and by who,
we have the northen king, Jeremiah speaks about the coming destruction from the north, chapter 4, but was this past tence,
then we have the kings of the east, who slay a third of men, thats a global conquest, conflict.
if there are 6 billion people on the planet, to wipe out two billion people.
we have the battle of Armagedon, speaks of a great earth quake.the great city being split three ways, and babylon the great was remembered by God , to give her the cup of wine his fierce wrath.
is Ezekiel 38/39 speaking of the final battle, after satan has been bound for a thousand years, then goes out to gather mog and gog, God putting a hook through their jaw, and bringing them down to Israel for slaughter.
many believe since Israel was restored, and the people gathered from the nations, Gods hand is on Israel, and will protect, and defeat all her enemys, she will be safe now from harm, this could be the false peace, also spoken of in Jeremiah chapter 4. also in the new testement. peace peace, then comes desruction.
Or is this infact Israels postion, she will only prosper, and turn back her enemys, and be under the Lords protection, and not under the Lords Judgement.
what is the abomination that causes desolation, surrounding Israel, in the holy of holys.
some say the mark of the beast. there is a new revelation on the mark of the beast, john may have written , mulitudes in the name of allah, islam could be the abomination that causes desolation, or is the abomination some thing eles. johnny
 
Shilohsfoal said:
jasoncran said:
hmm somesay that was in reference to the ptolemic dynasty and war it had with the selucid dynasty.
Click to expand...
Some would be wrong.The things in this chapter are about the time of the end.
Click to expand...
not all of prophecy is fulfilled at once its in tiers, ie the abonation of desolation. that happened in 168 ad and also will happen again.

theres also very specefic prophecy about greece in daniel that mentions alexander the great,is that the end times too? daniel is a book of both end times and the past events, future to daniel the writer at times.
 
jasoncran said:
Shilohsfoal said:
jasoncran said:
hmm somesay that was in reference to the ptolemic dynasty and war it had with the selucid dynasty.
Click to expand...
Some would be wrong.The things in this chapter are about the time of the end.
Click to expand...
not all of prophecy is fulfilled at once its in tiers, ie the abonation of desolation. that happened in 168 ad and also will happen again.

theres also very specefic prophecy about greece in daniel that mentions alexander the great,is that the end times too? daniel.
Click to expand...

The abomination that causes desolation hasnt happened yet.
Just because someone told you it had doesnt mean they told you the truth.

Nothing in Daniel chapter 11 is about Alexander the great.Nothing.
This chapter began with the division of the middle east and the creation of the jewish state of Israel.
The chapter only goes through the duration of the beast(the fourth kingdom).
 
read about the maccebean revolution and why it's happened.

the prophecy the goat of choler. greece, and i had four horns. nothing could stop it.look at alexander the great, he died from poisoning and not in military defeat. his kindgom was split into 4. hmm

daniel 8:8
talks about this. not chapter 11.

that also could about the war between the selucids and antiochuis, but you are the Lord and even though the prophecy is very vague, it can mean only what you say it is.
 
jasoncran said:
read about the maccebean revolution and why it's happened.

the prophecy the goat of choler. greece, and i had four horns. nothing could stop it.look at alexander the great, he died from poisoning and not in military defeat. his kindgom was split into 4. hmm

daniel 8:8
talks about this. not chapter 11.

that also could about the war between the selucids and antiochuis, but you are the Lord and even though the prophecy is very vague, it can mean only what you say it is.
Click to expand...

Ive read about the goat and I know it was about Alezander.But chapter 11 is about the time of the end.Not 2000-3000 years ago.
Daniel 11;40 says the time of the end.
Daniel 12;9 says the time of the end.

I dont have to be the Lord to get the idea that it is about the time of the end.
 
ah but some prophecies are both end times and also future.meaning that they have been partially fulfilled.

ie the verses on the abonomation of desolation, happened in the past and will happen again.



that was i should have mentioned the first time.
 
be kind to one another , we are seeking to piece to gether a mystery, prophecy. all is not clear.
know ones input is dismissed, we can but see if it has a place or fits, to give us a clearer picture, understanding. bless you both, and others for their input, ive heard and learned things i never knew.

what do we see as the abomination that causes desolation, why is such a thing concentrated around Jerusalem, then in the holy of holys, it was spoken about by Daniel and Jesus.

the abomination that causes desolation standing where it should not, Mark 13-14
let the reader under stand,also in Mathew 24, let the reader under stand, how many in Israel will under stand, have the knowledge, read and understand the Gospels?
and know its time to flee to the mountains.
lets try and see what it could be represent, from the past, or from what we can now see, or understand through the scriptures. johnny
 
Shilohsfoal said:
jasoncran said:
read about the maccebean revolution and why it's happened.

the prophecy the goat of choler. greece, and i had four horns. nothing could stop it.look at alexander the great, he died from poisoning and not in military defeat. his kindgom was split into 4. hmm

daniel 8:8
talks about this. not chapter 11.

that also could about the war between the selucids and antiochuis, but you are the Lord and even though the prophecy is very vague, it can mean only what you say it is.
Click to expand...

Ive read about the goat and I know it was about Alezander.But chapter 11 is about the time of the end.Not 2000-3000 years ago.
Daniel 11;40 says the time of the end.
Daniel 12;9 says the time of the end.

I dont have to be the Lord to get the idea that it is about the time of the end.
Click to expand...
Ah...Yes! But the end of what? :chin
 
NJBeliever said:
veteran said:
And if another Jewish temple is built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, with a false messiah playing our Lord Jesus, working great signs and wonders to deceive the whole world, and an idol image of the beast setup for all the world to worship? What then?

All that's not there yet in Jerusalem, but that's what is prophesied for her prior to Christ's return..
Click to expand...

Now this is something that makes sense to me. If you are now asserting that it's a future Jerusalem that is the harlot, that could be a possibility.
Click to expand...

That's the time I've been pointing to all along, because those prophesied events haven't begun yet today, but I think we'll see them in our time. False prophets crept in have been trying to get folks off that point, and to instead make us believe it either already happenned somewhere else on earth, or that's it happenning somewhere else now (like with a pope). Both those ideas are wrong per what God prophesied about it in His Word, because God's Word shows great signs and miracles with a supernatural working that will cause many to be deceived.

The idol image of the beast of Rev.13 follows the pattern of historical Babylon, when Nebuchadnezzar's false prophets had him make a golden idol of himself and require all to bow in worship to it at the sound of the psalter. Up until that happenned, Daniel and his fellows were held in high regard by the king of Babylon. That's specifically the type of event that began a final trial.

NJBeliever said:
The reasons for why I'd disagree with it is just the timing of it with Revelation. By the time the antichrist is in power installing his one-world religion of worship of him in the city of Jerusalem (the abomination), the Jews will be on the run. The gig is up and the deception is up. They know he's not the Messiah and that they've been suckered.
Click to expand...

It's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem that are preparing to build another Jewish temple and start up Old Covenant style worship again. That's how most of them there will indeed be 'suckered' into the deception that's coming. Recall what our Lord Jesus said to the women in Jerusalem that cried for Him, and He told them to not cry for Him but for themselves, and for their children, for the day will come when they shall say "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare..." (Luke 23). That's about their future spiritual harlotry to another, worshipping the false one instead of Christ (the real meaning of the word 'antichrist').

NJBeliever said:
I also think that at the start of the 70th week that Israel spiritually will be turning back to God. They will be worshiping in the Hebraic tradition (sacrifice and oblation), but still not looking to Christ. So if anything,there will be LESS of the occultic/masonic stuff going on.

But again, I do think this theory make sense but it just runs into a few conflicts with other scripture.
Click to expand...

The coming of a false messiah to Jerusalem, to setup worship of himself, using a Jewish temple, and doing miracles to fool the majority into thinking he's Christ, is what the "strong delusion" is going to be about. Not just the deceived in Jerusalem will fall to that, but the majority of the whole world will also. That is how that false one will destroy using peace, as per the Dan.11 blueprint. And because the majority will believe the lie, it'll be a time of peace and prosperity for them, the "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned the deceived will say per 1 Thess.5. The deceived will literally be spiritually drunken with false messiah, spiritually asleep to the whole matter.

The only ones left standing against that working will be those who remain waiting for Christ's return after that, and those will be targeted like Daniel and his fellows were. That's what the idea of brother betraying brother to death, and the father the son, because even many of one's own family members will think that is Christ having come, and won't understand those who will refuse to bow (Mark 13). It's that kind of working which God's Word is revealing when all the prophecies for the end are put together in the mind. Apply what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem, but in final by a false one who actually will have supernatural power to do real miracles on earth in the manner of our Lord Jesus. It's that working which will stand above what any other could do in causing false worship. That's exactly what the idea of 2 Thess.2 is showing, that false one exalting himself above all... that is worshipped. Not just trying, but actually exalting himself with power and miracles to fool the majority. The idea Christ said in Matt.24 that the time would be shortened for the sake of His elect, lest there be no flesh saved, is about none left that remain true to Him, not about everyone being killed; like Luke 18:8...

Luke 18:8
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall He find faith on the earth?(KJV)
 
jasoncran said:
ah but some prophecies are both end times and also future.meaning that they have been partially fulfilled.

ie the verses on the abonomation of desolation, happened in the past and will happen again.



that was i should have mentioned the first time.
Click to expand...

Agreed, the Abomination of Desolation was engrained upon every Jew of the first century, the Maccabean Wars when Antiochus sacrificed pigs in the Jewish Temple. Hannakah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple after this happened, still celebrated today. This horrific period in Jewish history actually happened, and referencing it in an apocalyptic work is MEANT to bring up the terrible sufferings of faithful Jews during the 2nd century BC.

Regards
 
There is not more than one abomination of desolation and it hasnt happened yet.
I cant understand how christians let themselves be lead by non believers.My goodness people.Josephus was an unbeliever.Do you really believe the wicked people understand the book when the scripture says the wicked shall not understand?Your taking the word of someone who doesnt even recongnise the Messiah.Someone who hasnt been given eyes to see with.Someone who hasnt recieved the holy spirit.
Someone the Lord hasnt sent nor did the Lord choose him.Take it from someone who has recieved the Holy Ghost.It hasnt happened.When it does,only the wise will understand.That is those who God has chosen.Those who follow the Lamb.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top