Could Mecca Be Mystery Babylon?

[Edward]

Sorry man. Time is brief. Can you repost that Scripture, the definitive references? Thanks!

Then we have the Red Sea: “The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red Sea” (Jeremiah 49:21). Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the last-days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern-day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel 25 “Edom” stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia)” (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.


Isaiah 21: 1
21 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.

Revelation 18:17-19
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

From what I have read, a mushroom cloud from a nuclear explosion can easily be seen from 90 miles away. From Mecca to the near Red Sea coast the distance is <50 miles.

 

[Edward]

iran is Persia, Iranians aren't arabs but Persians. when one goes to iran, one speaks farsi or Persian . the same is the case with Afghanistan. they speak dari(farsi) and Pashto both are from Persian ancestry . of course that nation has more then just those two, but those two are the largest

Oh, the Medes! Yeah, here:

Jeremiah 51: 11-12
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.

12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the Lord hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.

 

[Sinthesis]

Then we have the Red Sea: “The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red Sea” (Jeremiah 49:21). Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the last-days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern-day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel 25 “Edom” stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia)” (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.


Isaiah 21: 1
21 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.

Revelation 18:17-19
17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

From what I have read, a mushroom cloud from a nuclear explosion can easily be seen from 90 miles away. From Mecca to the near Red Sea coast the distance is <50 miles.

Jeremiah 49 lists several nations that are to be judged, and we know that Babylon-as-Mecca-as-Edom is not one of them because Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon is listed as the instrument of judgment. Jeremiah 49 came true; it is prophecy already fulfilled. Insisting that it is really about our time is self centered.

 

[Edward]

Ok Sinthesis. I'm just tossing stuff around, pondering. Lighten up brother, you seem kind of tense.

 

[Sinthesis]

Oh, the Medes! Yeah, here:

Jeremiah 51: 11-12
11 Make bright the arrows; gather the shields: the Lord hath raised up the spirit of the kings of the Medes: for his device is against Babylon, to destroy it; because it is the vengeance of the Lord, the vengeance of his temple.

12 Set up the standard upon the walls of Babylon, make the watch strong, set up the watchmen, prepare the ambushes: for the Lord hath both devised and done that which he spake against the inhabitants of Babylon.

The Medes and Persians conquered Babylon just as Jeremiah 51 prophesied. This was past knowledge to Jesus' contemporaries, so similar language was used in the NT to prophesy the fall of Jerusalem, thus equating Jerusalem with Babylon.

 

[Barth Jones]

“The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red Sea” (Jeremiah 49:21). Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the last-days Babylon will be located.

Not to argue, I observe no indication in your citation that the Red Sea is a locator--of Babylon.

First, it begins, "the earth is moved," which indicates the reach or range of the cry. It suggests to me that the cry will be heard not only next door to Babylon, but as far as th Red Sea--a great distance in Jeremiah's day.

All indicators point to Southern-Mesopotamia in my view (not to argue).

 

[Edward]

Hmmm. Perhaps.

 

[Edward]

The Medes and Persians conquered Babylon just as Jeremiah 51 prophesied. This was past knowledge to Jesus' contemporaries, so similar language was used in the NT to prophesy the fall of Jerusalem, thus equating Jerusalem with Babylon.

They did, didn't they?! They did.
I have never heard that Jerusalem is Babylon though. What are you basing that on? Scriptures please. I'm willing to consider it and take a look see...

 

[Barth Jones]

They did, didn't they?! They did.
I have never heard that Jerusalem is Babylon though. What are you basing that on? Scriptures please. I'm willing to consider it and take a look see...

Nope, Jerusalem is Jerusalem. Babylon is Babylon.

 

[jasoncran]

Nope, Jerusalem is Jerusalem. Babylon is Babylon.

uhm show me that in revalation 17 and 18. Jerusalem also is called something by jesus that is recorded and john says word for word.

Jerusalem kills the saints and the prophets as jesus said they would. john says the same about Babylon and where its located. who can Babylon of today have the church there? its a village of a few thousand. and it doesn't have seven hills. nor is it where the lord was slain.

Jerusalem had a lot of pull with the romans. if you doubt then why were they able to kill some many Christians? only rome could execute. that is why the jews had to go to Pontius pilate and control him and bend him.

17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

18 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!

17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,

18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

the word ge can be said to the world land. also remember what jesus said to the Pharisees in matthew 23. its word for word.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

[Barth Jones]

Against argument, the "Jerusalem" that slays saints and prophets is that majority of Jews--in Jerusalem, that are not the remnant among them, whose roots are the City of David, in whom Christ has roots. That majority has roots in Babylon, having zero pull with Rome, they're Rome's puppets.

Rome itself defeated by Christ, foiled by his church, forged the false replica of the Christian church, The Church of Rome.

 

[jasoncran]

Against argument, the "Jerusalem" that slays saints and prophets is that majority of Jews--in Jerusalem, that are not the remnant among them, whose roots are the City of David, in whom Christ has roots. That majority has roots in Babylon, having zero pull with Rome, they're Rome's puppets.

Rome itself defeated by Christ, foiled by his church, forged the false replica of the Christian church, The Church of Rome.

whom killed the the apostles? and we have the bible from that "church of rome" the early named church after the time of john is called catholic which is called universal. not that im a fan of the rcc. rome didn't kill the apostles because they alone didn't have the desire. whom cause paul to be arrested? the jews in Jerusalem? why? because they wanted to kill him. they had a part in that. god used it and planned it but they had big part. if paul didn't appeal to ceaser he would have walked.

 

[Barth Jones]

whom killed the the apostles? and we have the bible from that "church of rome" the early named church after the time of john is called catholic which is called universal. not that im a fan of the rcc. rome didn't kill the apostles because they alone didn't have the desire. whom cause paul to be arrested? the jews in Jerusalem? why? because they wanted to kill him. they had a part in that. god used it and planned it but they had big part. if paul didn't appeal to ceaser he would have walked.

Herod, the first murderer at heart, was so for the same reason Pilate washed his hands--loyalty to Rome, who flattered them with "dignity," or at least permitted puppet "dignitaries" to play out their roles as "Herod the Great," and the pontific, "Pontius Pilate."

Rome, much more subtle, but much like the Jewish "leadership," feared for their own preservation. Caesar knew very well the church flourished when the best of it's members were slain. Rome was already losing ground. Inner-Rome was grasping for means for self-preservation.

 

[Edward]

Wouldn't we now have to include Christians in the tally based on the fact that Christians have been grafted into the vine, and there is no difference between Jew and Christian in Gods eyes?

Islam is killing a lot of Christians from what I understand.

 

[jasoncran]

Herod, the first murderer at heart, was so for the same reason Pilate washed his hands--loyalty to Rome, who flattered them with "dignity," or at least permitted puppet "dignitaries" to play out their roles as "Herod the Great," and the pontific, "Pontius Pilate."

Rome, much more subtle, but much like the Jewish "leadership," feared for their own preservation. Caesar knew very well the church flourished when the best of it's members were slain. Rome was already losing ground. Inner-Rome was grasping for means for self-preservation.

still herod was over whom? he may have been idumean but he was over the jewish provences as allowed by rome.pilate was there to make sure the jews stayed in line.

what is Babylon to you? have you seen Babylon? its still visible and being dug up. we have restored the Ishtar gate and that part is the museum.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillah

a village near Babylon. is Babylon a literal city?

 

[Barth Jones]

Wouldn't we now have to include Christians in the tally based on the fact that Christians have been grafted into the vine, and there is no difference between Jew and Christian in Gods eyes?

Islam is killing a lot of Christians from what I understand.

There is a majority of Jews that are not the remnant. There is a majority of professing Christians who sample Scripture, or church, who are not the remnant. Christ made clear to make every effort to stay the narrow course to the narrow way to him.

 

[jasoncran]

what is Babylon. besides Jerusalem in the past was reffered to :

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_siverd_babylon_02.html

that said im not a hyper preterist.

 

[Barth Jones]

still herod was over whom? he may have been idumean but he was over the jewish provences as allowed by rome.pilate was there to make sure the jews stayed in line.

what is Babylon to you? have you seen Babylon? its still visible and being dug up. we have restored the Ishtar gate and that part is the museum.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillah

a village near Babylon. is Babylon a literal city?

Babylon was the capital city of ancient Babylonia, the land and people in the southern part of Mesopotamia, which was pretty much the region between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, the Northern part being Assyria, whose capitals we know to have been at times, Assur and Ninevah. Everything from Eden to the famine striking the land of Jacob's family was located there. And that land is precisely modern day Iraq, not too far west of Israel (indeed Abraham made the journey to Canaan from Mesopotamia).

Assyria brought down Israel's Northern kingdom. Babylon brought down the City of David, the beloved capital city of Southern Judah.

No serious archeologist, historian or Biblical scholar will contest this, whether Judeo-Christian, or students of so-called ancient myths, whatever. It's generally accepted fact.

Moreover, it's in the Biblical record.

 

[jasoncran]

Babylon was the capital city of ancient Babylonia, the land and people in the southern part of Mesopotamia, which was pretty much the region between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, the Northern part being Assyria, whose capitals we know to have been at times, Assur and Ninevah. Everything from Eden to the famine striking the land of Jacob's family was located there. And that land is precisely modern day Iraq, not too far west of Israel (indeed Abraham made the journey to Canaan from Mesopotamia).

Assyria brought down Israel's Northern kingdom. Babylon brought down the City of David, the beloved capital city of Southern Judah.

No serious archeologist, historian or Biblical scholar will contest this, whether Judeo-Christian, or students of so-called ancient myths, whatever. It's generally accepted fact.

Moreover, it's in the Biblical record.

ok then what the idea on the futurist view of the Babylon?

 

[Barth Jones]

ok then what the idea on the futurist view of the Babylon?

Good question, and very relevant. But we're not gods and I don't think I've ever had a conversation with the likes of Daniel or John the Revelator, and even they only knew what God revealed to them.

As a fledgling Christian, about twenty years ago, I was intrigued a few moments of this brief life on earth by a book by Hal Lindsay, I think the one following "Late Great Planet Earth."

I quickly learned a few relevant facts, but most importantly I learned only God really knows the detail.

Past histories are more within reach by mortals than future histories (sic). That doesn't discount the importance of studying them.