Covenant Theology vs. Dispensational Theology

[JLB]

So, before denying the law, we might understand that we are actually UNDER all of it, every jot and tittle, when it is read in the Spiritual Light of the BLUE. Did Jesus teach Paul this? Undoubtedly. Matt. 22, Mark 12, Luke 10 are Jesus' FACT on this identical matter. James 2:8 teaches the same thing. So does John the Apostle in many citings.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

Grace is God's power to us, unmerited, that enables us to what we can not do, in and of ourselves... ie; have dominion over sin.

Grace is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Grace.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

To me, Adam and Abraham had the same command.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1

"Partake of Me and My Life, and you will not die".

They both were called into relationship with the Lord, and to receive His Life.

It's in keeping the one command to partake of His Life and Spirit, that enables us to keep the rest of His laws and commandments.

The Principle; Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

Jesus said it this way: this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3


The Lord is the only source of Life, as we spend time in His presence and hear His Voice, wil will receive His empowering life that equips us to overcome the desires of the flesh.


Walk in My presence, walk with Me, walk in My Spirit and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.


Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16



JLB

Adam and Abraham had the same command. The same command we all h ave. To obey. i do see a difference because, as you say, God approached or spoke to Abraham and told him to walk ahead. At some point in Abraham's life, while he was still living in Ur, according to stephen in Acts, God spoke to him and told him to leave his home. And he got to know God.

Adam is different. Adam was still "dead" when God breathed life into him. Genesis 2:7. God was with Adam from the beginning - Adam was never called. There was no sin at this point. Commandments were not necessary. What purpose would they have served?

However, there was a command. Do not eat. he ate. Sin entered.

In every case we're lost and then we become saved.
With Adam, he was saved and then he became lost.

I agree with everything you say but I do see a big difference between Adam and then every other human. We are born into sin - he wasn't.

Also you say that we're in the same covenant Abraham had made with God. Is this what you mean? I can accept that maybe the NC is a refreshed version of the Abrahamic C, but it's not right to say that it's the same. If it were the same, the New one would not have been necessary.

How do you think they're the same? Maybe in the promises?
The promise of descendants
The promise of becoming a great nation (of land)
The promise of blessing and redemption

Do you see differences?

Wondering

 

[JLB]

God approached or spoke to Abraham and told him to walk ahead.

"To walk before Me", is another way of saying "walk with Me", or "walk in My presence".

This is a call to relationship. This is a call to eternal life.

However, there was a command. Do not eat. he ate. Sin entered.

Amen. No doubt.

If the Lord says...walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh [sin], and you don't, then you will fulfill the lust's of the flesh [sin].

The end result is the same.

• Disobey - Sin, death
• Relationship with God - Eternal Life
• No relationship with God - No eternal life, death

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

"To walk before Me", is another way of saying "walk with Me", or "walk in My presence".

This is a call to relationship. This is a call to eternal life.

Amen. No doubt.

If the Lord says...walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh [sin], and you don't, then you will fulfill the lust's of the flesh [sin].

The end result is the same.

• Disobey - Sin, death
• Relationship with God - Eternal Life
• No relationship with God - No eternal life, death

JLB

I understand it to be "walk in my presence". Walk ahead of me so I can see you and watch over you. Maybe in the sense that God could see everything we do. Maybe even as caring for us?

Abraham had already been walking before God - but he was told to continue to do so.
As are we.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers, generally, rightfully conclude they are not under the "literal law." That is TRUE.

But that is not how Paul saw the law. Paul again "allegorized" the entirety of the law, claiming this rightful claim:

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Yes, we "should" know that the law is spiritual. This automatically takes it OUT of the literal senses and applications, just as Paul did in 1 Cor. 9 above.

And Paul goes on to PLACE US as believers UNDER the Law of the Spirit, in the Spiritual Application of the LAW and not only makes the noted laws therein, but EVERY COMMAND in the entire Bible revolves around this command, right here in Romans 13:

8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Anyone who does not "do this" will never see the BLUE BIBLE. They have not submitted themselves to the reality of the LAW OF THE SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit guarantees they will NOT SEE.

So, before denying the law, we might understand that we are actually UNDER all of it, every jot and tittle, when it is read in the Spiritual Light of the BLUE. Did Jesus teach Paul this? Undoubtedly. Matt. 22, Mark 12, Luke 10 are Jesus' FACT on this identical matter. James 2:8 teaches the same thing. So does John the Apostle in many citings.

But a carnal person can not see this, nor can they submit to the Spirit of the Law, nor can they understand it. And they never will.

Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So, be careful how you measure.

Hi Smaller,

What is the "blue bible?"

Wondering

 

[smaller]

Hi Smaller,

What is the "blue bible?"

Wondering

Only my emphasis to crucial points in the observations. Thought I referenced that in an earlier post in the thread.

I use a fairly simple dissection method with scriptures and often use bold blue/red for the
contrast method employed.

 

[smaller]

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14

The flesh of every person remains contrary to the Spirit, and therefore also to any aspect of same. Gal. 5:17. There is no remedy for the flesh in it's contrary to the Spirit status. We are essentially "bound" to that which is contrary to the Spirit in this present life.

If we don't understand this simple principle, it quickly turns to lies and hypocrisy because of this basic form of dishonesty i.e. claiming we're not sinners and numerous other false claims. This drags the person even further into various forms of hypocrisy. It's a common phenomena.

Grace is God's power to us, unmerited, that enables us to what we can not do, in and of ourselves... ie; have dominion over sin.

Jesus Is The Lord of the Covenant. Therefore Covenant theology is the prevailing sight. Jesus in the flesh was a literal walking Living Word of God Covenant.

Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

That Covenant bears TWO simple aspects to us.

One side or "edge" of the sWord is for us. The other, against us in the contrariness of our flesh.

The flesh will not understand this, will resist this and will fight to save itself. Which ain't gonna happen.

 

[JLB]

There is no remedy for the flesh in it's contrary to the Spirit status.

There is certainly a remedy.

The remedy is the Holy Spirit.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Romans 8:13

Paul lived the crucified life.

For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
2 Corinthians 4:11

...that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.


JLB

 

[smaller]

There is certainly a remedy.

The remedy is the Holy Spirit.

There isn't a remedy. They are contrary and will remain contrary to each others and against each others, in anyone. Gal. 5:17

 

[JLB]

There isn't a remedy. They are contrary and will remain contrary to each others and against each others, in anyone. Gal. 5:17

The Spirit of God is the remedy.

Please read what the bible says.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The remedy is putting to death the deeds of the body.

If there was no remedy and all was hopeless in this matter, then God would hold us accountable for walking in the flesh.

But completely and totally contrary to what you say, we are held accountable for yielding to, and practicing the works of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

The Remedy is walking in the Spirit.

Furthermore, those who do not obey, and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Furthermore, it is the responsibility of the believer to do what is necessary, not to present themselves as a slave to the flesh to gratify it's sinful desires.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13 :amen


It's up to you Smaller, to choose to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

If you walk in the flesh, then there will be condemnation, if you walk in the Spirit, there will be life eternal and peace.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

If you or I practice the works of the flesh, you or I will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

 

[smaller]

JLB, any of us can claim that there are no conflicts between the flesh and Spirit, but there are. No one avoids this contrary conclusion by any applications as long as they live. That's really all there is to the subject.

Paul had to go through the process of "dying daily" because of this contrariness and the conflicts that he himself bore in his own flesh. No one in the flesh is sinless. Not by faith and not by law. And all are in the flesh whether they like it or not.

This matter is at the heart of Covenant understandings. There will be no flesh justified under any working of the Spirit. They are and remain against each others. And beneath this there is a mountain of scripture that reveals the real sources of why this is so. It's seldom studied because the flesh simply doesn't care to hear of it.

 

[Sinthesis]

Abraham had a relationship with the same Lord who became flesh.

Abraham was the first member of the covenant with the Lord, the same covenant we are in today.

The New Covenant is not a "different covenant" than the Abrahamic Covenant, but a "Refreshed" Abrahamic Covenant.

Abraham knew the Lord, which is the definition of eternal life.

this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 17:3



JLB

Judas had a relationship with Jesus, but I doubt it was a saving relationship. Abraham did not have a relationship with Jesus because he predated Jesus' work, but he trusted that God would send His Messiah who would save him retroactively. This is why Abraham went to Hades after his death. Abraham's faith that God would rescue him from death made Hades paradise compared to those who had no hope. The fact that Abraham was in Hades after his death is proof that he did not have eternal life as Christians do, but instead had faith in God's promise of resurrection.

Heb 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.​

Jesus established a new covenant.

 

[JLB]

JLB, any of us can claim that there are no conflicts between the flesh and Spirit,

Brother, stop making up things and trying to put them in my mouth.

We are discussing the remedy for the sinful desires of the flesh.

Of course they are contrary, if the weren't contrary then we wouldn't be discussing the need for a remedy.

The remedy is the Holy Spirit, and being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Holy Spirit.

That's the only remedy to overcome the desires of the flesh.


Again, read the scriptures.

Post scripture, not your opinion.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The remedy is putting to death the deeds of the body.

If there was no remedy and all was hopeless in this matter, then God would hold us accountable for walking in the flesh.

But completely and totally contrary to what you say, we are held accountable for yielding to, and practicing the works of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

The Remedy is walking in the Spirit.

Furthermore, those who do not obey, and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Furthermore, it is the responsibility of the believer to do what is necessary, not to present themselves as a slave to the flesh to gratify it's sinful desires.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13:amen


It's up to you Smaller, to choose to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

If you walk in the flesh, then there will be condemnation, if you walk in the Spirit, there will be life eternal and peace.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

If you or I practice the works of the flesh, you or I will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[JLB]

Abraham did not have a relationship with Jesus

Abraham was the founding member of the Church, the ecclesia, the called out ones.

He was the founding member of the holy nation... which began with the Lord making Covenant with a man of faith called Abraham.

That's why Paradise was called Abraham's Bosom.



Who appeared to Abraham, and made Covenant with him?

God the Father ?

or

The Lord, The One who became flesh.

When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 “As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:1


and again

Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. Genesis 18:1

Heb 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Jesus established a new covenant.

Not New as in different, but New as in Refreshed.

That's why believers we are called children of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Galatians 3:7

We as Gentiles, are grafted into, the Natural Olive tree, and are supported by the Root.

The natural Olive tree is Israel, which had it's origen in the Abrahamic Covenant.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.
Romans 11:13-18



JLB

 

[smaller]

Brother, stop making up things and trying to put them in my mouth.

We are discussing the remedy for the sinful desires of the flesh.

There is no remedy for the flesh. The Spirit is "factually" against the flesh and contrary to the flesh.

This doesn't change for anyone. If anything the battles with the flesh accelerate and increase for those in faith because of our enemies, unseen.

When we are in faith, we are enemies of the devil and his messengers. We become their targets. They target the flesh.

and THAT'S why it's contrary.

 

[smaller]

Judas had a relationship with Jesus, but I doubt it was a saving relationship. Abraham did not have a relationship with Jesus

That's entirely untrue. Abraham was a prophet. As such the Spirit of Christ was IN HIM to speak.

See Gen. 20:7, where God identifies Abraham as a prophet.

We know from many scriptures, primarily from 1 Peter 1:10-11 that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets. Abraham was no exception to this rule. That's why we "listen" to the prophets as well, because it's not them speaking, but they spoke in many cases, the Word of God by the Spirit of Christ speaking in them.

So yes, Abraham very much knew Christ and had a relationship with Christ, by His Spirit.

 

[JLB]

There is no remedy for the flesh. The Spirit is "factually" against the flesh and contrary to the flesh.

This doesn't change for anyone. If anything the battles with the flesh accelerate and increase for those in faith because of our enemies, unseen.

When we are in faith, we are enemies of the devil and his messengers. We become their targets. They target the flesh.

and THAT'S why it's contrary.

You have no scripture, so I'm going to file this post in the non biblical category, along with the other non biblical teachings you put out, such as the "messenger of Satan in our flesh" and "sin is of the devil".

The remedy is the Holy Spirit, and being filled with the Holy Spirit and walking in the Holy Spirit.

That's the only remedy to overcome the desires of the flesh.


Again, read the scriptures.

Post scripture, not your opinion.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The remedy is putting to death the deeds of the body.

If there was no remedy and all was hopeless in this matter, then God would hold us accountable for walking in the flesh.

But completely and totally contrary to what you say, we are held accountable for yielding to, and practicing the works of the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Galatians 5:16

For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

The Remedy is walking in the Spirit.

Furthermore, those who do not obey, and practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21


Furthermore, it is the responsibility of the believer to do what is necessary, not to present themselves as a slave to the flesh to gratify it's sinful desires.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

and again

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13:amen


It's up to you Smaller, to choose to walk in the Spirit or walk in the flesh.

If you walk in the flesh, then there will be condemnation, if you walk in the Spirit, there will be life eternal and peace.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

If you or I practice the works of the flesh, you or I will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:19-21


JLB

 

[smaller]

You have no scripture,

We've done the drill many times by now and you know what I'll cite. It's pointless to repeat what you already know.

Simply said, I will not justify my flesh or anyone else's on the basis of it being contrary to the Spirit, because this is a simple FACT of scripture. Gal. 5:17.

Believers who want to smear the entirety of themselves with justifications simply are not paying attention.

We all have sin. Do I really need me to cite the scriptures for this? There are many. Take the quickest reality pill from 1 John 1:8. No one becomes 'sinless' by faith.

Sin indwells the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21.

This evil is IN our flesh, therefore, it's CONTRARY to the Spirit. I expect the Spirit to be AGAINST evil, AGAINST sin, and to even work adversely toward evil and sin. Don't YOU?

Believers who want to dance their evil present with them their sin, in their flesh, into the Spirit are wasting their time. They simply are not honest to the scriptural discourses and disclosures and are essentially trying to pull a fast one on God.

It's not going to work.

 

[smaller]

In Covenant theology the premise is quite simple.

God is FOR good and AGAINST evil.

This is as complex as any form of christian theology needs to be. And this is the meaning of the COVENANT.

 

[Jim Parker]

Below is a brief comparison showing the main differences between covenant theology and dispensational theology. These are the two prevailing (and contrary) views concerning Israel and the Church. There is a 3rd view called 'New Covenant' theology, and, if you are of that persuasion, feel free to explain it here.

Anyway, here are the main views.

You are ignoring about 1/2 the Christians in the world who hold to neither of those views.