Covenant Theology vs. Dispensational Theology

[JLB]

We've done the drill many times by now and you know what I'll cite. It's pointless to repeat what you already know.

Simply said, I will not justify my flesh or anyone else's on the basis of it being contrary to the Spirit, because this is a simple FACT of scripture. Gal. 5:17.

Believers who want to smear the entirety of themselves with justifications simply are not paying attention.

We all have sin. Do I really need me to cite the scriptures for this? There are many. Take the quickest reality pill from 1 John 1:8. No one becomes 'sinless' by faith.

Sin indwells the flesh. Romans 7:17-20. Evil is present with us. Romans 7:21.

No one is disputing that evil is present with me, or that sin doesn't dwell in our flesh.

The remedy for evil and sin in our flesh is for us to put to death,the desires of the flesh, by the Spirit, so that we will not walk after the flesh.

For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13


We have been given the remedy for this condition, it's called the Holy Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Yes, the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, that's why we are told not to present ourselves as slaves to sin.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Believers who want to dance their evil present with them their sin, in their flesh, into the Spirit are wasting their time.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1
We have been given the Spirit of God to empower us, and to enable us to overcome sin, and the carnal desires of the sin in our flesh.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6


You have to choose to set your mind on the things of the Spirit.

To be carnally minded is death.



JLB

 

[Cyberseeker]

You are ignoring about 1/2 the Christians in the world who hold to neither of those views.

Covenant theology is the dominant view from out of the reformation. Dispensational theology is the dominant view in modern day futurism. So I dont know who the 50% of world Christians are that you are talking about. Are you referring to Catholic?

 

[Cyberseeker]

double post

 

[smaller]

No one is disputing that evil is present with me, or that sin doesn't dwell in our flesh.

The remedy for evil and sin in our flesh is for us to put to death,the desires of the flesh, by the Spirit, so that we will not walk after the flesh.

Pardon me for observing that there is no cure for the flesh. As such there is no remedy.

We have been given the remedy for this condition, it's called the Holy Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Yes, the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, that's why we are told not to present ourselves as slaves to sin.

I don't do well with circular logic i.e. understandings that don't make sense.

There is nothing of Covenant or Dispensation theology that will make the flesh NOT contrary to the Spirit in any case. Nor is there a "remedy" for the flesh other than eventual death or change if believers are here at the end of the program.

 

[Sinthesis]

That's entirely untrue. Abraham was a prophet. As such the Spirit of Christ was IN HIM to speak.

See Gen. 20:7, where God identifies Abraham as a prophet.

We know from many scriptures, primarily from 1 Peter 1:10-11 that the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets. Abraham was no exception to this rule. That's why we "listen" to the prophets as well, because it's not them speaking, but they spoke in many cases, the Word of God by the Spirit of Christ speaking in them.

So yes, Abraham very much knew Christ and had a relationship with Christ, by His Spirit.

Balaam was also prophet.

Abraham was a sinner just like the rest of us. He needed Jesus' finished work on the cross just like the rest of us. The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets to prophesy the servile nature of Christ's work, which ran contrary to the image of a conquering Messiah, and likely personally puzzled the prophets. Abraham knew God and in faith gladly anticipated His overcoming the world, yet that does not mean Abraham knew how Jesus would overcome the world. Clearly this knowledge was held even from the disciples until after the Resusrection. Thus any relationship with God could not be a saving relationship until God had payed our debt on the cross.

Jas 2:23 - And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

 

[JLB]

Pardon me for observing that there is no cure for the flesh. As such there is no remedy.

The remedy for the desires of the Flesh is the Christian himself, putting to death these desires by the Spirit.

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The remedy, solution, the antidote, the recipe, or whatever else you want to call it, is the Holy Spirit.

as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 2 Peter 1:3

I don't do well with circular logic i.e. understandings that don't make sense.

That seems to be an ongoing issue with you; the scriptures don't seem to make sense to your "logic".

We all need to ask God for wisdom how to walk in the Spirit and be led by the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

Yes, the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, that's why we are told not to present ourselves as slaves to sin.

Not presenting ourselves as a slave to sin, could be something as simple as; not selecting a porn site while on your computer.

When we look at ungodly things, we "set our minds" on these carnal things, which is presenting ourselves, or putting ourselves in position to sin.

Going to ungodly places, where ungodly music or sights are displayed is the work of "presenting ourselves as a slave to sin".

Christians who become enslaved again to sin, after they have been set free by Christ, don't just "stumble accidentally" into this lifestyle, but rather, they have worked at it until they have been overtaken again. 2 Peter 2:20-22

I guarantee you, they "violated" their conscience somewhere along the way, and ignored the Holy Spirit warnings...Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”? James 4:5


Presenting ourselves as a slave to sin, is like a dog that returns to his own vomit, or a pig to her mud-hole.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Balaam was also prophet.

Indeed. And spoke the truth while in the Spirit. Probably one of the better examples of the dual aspect of the covenant, that being God is for good and against evil, in it's simplicity.

Abraham was a sinner just like the rest of us. He needed Jesus' finished work on the cross just like the rest of us. The Spirit of Christ was in the prophets to prophesy the servile nature of Christ's work,

Never said otherwise. Being a sinner doesn't disqualify for salvation. It's mandatory understanding for those who speak truthfully.

 

[smaller]

The remedy for the desires of the Flesh is the Christian himself, putting to death these desires by the Spirit.

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

The remedy, solution, the antidote, the recipe, or whatever else you want to call it, is the Holy Spirit.

I'll cite this one more time JLB. There is no remedy for the flesh because it's contrary to the Spirit. And that would be no matter how good of an ACT the flesh puts on. Gal. 5:17.

The flesh is a lying posing hypocrite. And there are adverse spiritually based, scripturally cited reasons why this is so, as you've heard ad infinitum.

 

[Jim Parker]

Covenant theology is the dominant view from out of the reformation. Dispensational theology is the dominant view in modern day futurism. So I dont know who the 50% of world Christians are that you are talking about. Are you referring to Catholic?

That's pretty typical of Protestants to just disregard Catholics and Orthodox Christians who number more than one billion. Reformed Theology is an invention of the 16th century which was used by the German princes as an excuse for 100 years of war and the death of around 3 million people "in the name of the Lord." Modern Dispensational theology is an invention of the 19th century. The "other" Christianity is practiced by the billion or so people you have chosen to ignore.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

I'll cite this one more time JLB. There is no remedy for the flesh because it's contrary to the Spirit. And that would be no matter how good of an ACT the flesh puts on. Gal. 5:17.

The flesh is a lying posing hypocrite. And there are adverse spiritually based, scripturally cited reasons why this is so, as you've heard ad infinitum.

Again, I agree that the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.

The remedy for the flesh is to crucify it, put to death it's sinful desires by the Spirit.

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:13

What does your bible say in Romans 8:13?

Does it say something different? Mine is the NKJV, which version do you read?

Maybe it would be helpful for you to post Romans 8:13 from the version you use, so we can see the way your bible reads.

The New King James version of Romans 8:13 says ...

...but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


There is no "act" of the flesh if it's put to death.

That's why we are to to "put to death" the deeds of the flesh, by the Spirit.

Putting to death, by the Spirit [His divine power], the sinful cravings the flesh desires to express, is the remedy.

for it is written:

3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:3-4


JLB

 

[smaller]

Again, I agree that the flesh is contrary to the Spirit.

The remedy for the flesh is to crucify it, put to death it's sinful desires by the Spirit.

The flesh remains contrary to the Spirit as long as we're in it and that is to the end of being alive in it. No living flesh is dead.

No one is going to kill themselves i.e. crucify their flesh in the external sense of the term and claim that's what that means as obviously IT DOESN'T.

 

[Jim Parker]

The flesh remains contrary to the Spirit as long as we're in it and that is to the end of being alive in it. No living flesh is dead.

Amen. It's a life-long struggle.

 

[JLB]

The flesh remains contrary to the Spirit as long as we're in it and that is to the end of being alive in it. No living flesh is dead.

No one is going to kill themselves i.e. crucify their flesh in the external sense of the term and claim that's what that means as obviously IT DOESN'T.

I'm glad you can see that it doesn't mean to "literally" kill ones self, but by the Spirit put to death the deeds, the expressions, the desires of the sin nature dwelling in our flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13

Our effort is to be filled with the Spirit, to invest ourselves to set our mind on things above and do the things that are in harmony with the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors... one who owes another, a debt.

...which is your reasonable service.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:1-2


We are to work in harmony with the Holy Spirit, who will lead us and guide in these things.


And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13




JLB

 

[smaller]

I'm glad you can see that it doesn't mean to "literally" kill ones self, but by the Spirit put to death the deeds, the expressions, the desires of the sin nature dwelling in our flesh.

Uh, yeah, because it is and remains "contrary" to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The implication IS that no matter what any believer does they can not justify or remedy the contrary flesh.

Our effort is to be filled with the Spirit, to invest ourselves to set our mind on things above and do the things that are in harmony with the Spirit.

There is no harmony between the contrary flesh and the Spirit. Why not look at it for what it really is instead of running away from reality?

 

[smaller]

Believers who see themselves "honestly" as scripture proposes, with contrary flesh, are not so apt to blanket or cover up this contrary state, as if we can fool God in Christ.

God does see us as we "really" are, and that is with contrary flesh. With "evil present" with us.

God is and will remain factually against the contrary flesh and against evil present in any form, in anyone. Whether it's openly apparent or the believer vainly attempts to "hide" it.

The covenant will do the contrary flesh and evil present no good whatsoever. God in Christ IS in fact the enemy and resistor of same contrary flesh/evil present.

God in these equations is not entirely our ally. The opposite is the actual case. And as a resistor of evil, those who do not stand truthfully will be blinded to this reality, by God no less. This is the first step into hypocrisy, and the penalty of God in Christ for being dishonest.

 

[JLB]

Uh, yeah, because it is and remains "contrary" to the Spirit.

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The implication IS that no matter what any believer does they can not justify or remedy the contrary flesh.

This has nothing to do with what I posted.

The flesh is indeed contrary to the Spirit.

No need to continue stating this, since I'm in agreement with the scripture that says so.

What I stated, and you have not acknowledged or addressed, is what we are to do as believers, about this condition of our flesh being contrary to the Spirit.

We have been commanded to put to death, the deeds of the flesh, that is contrary to the Spirit.

We are debtors to do this, so that we will walk according to the Spirit.

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors...

Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh...

Our effort is to be filled with the Spirit, to invest ourselves to set our mind on things above and do the things that are in harmony with the Spirit.

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6


... but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13


And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

There is no harmony between the contrary flesh and the Spirit. Why not look at it for what it really is instead of running away from reality?

There is no harmony between the flesh and the Spirit.

The reality is, it's up to us, to deal with the flesh by being filled with the Spirit, by putting to death the deeds of the flesh.

We are called to be led by the Spirit and be in harmony with the Spirit, to obey the Holy Spirit.

Here are the scriptures, that teach us ways to co-operate with the Holy Spirit:

• but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
• do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13
  
• do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

These are commands for us to do.


5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Romans 8:5-6



JLB

 

[smaller]

We can toss any number of scriptures at the contrary flesh/evil present.

It will do none of that any good. That's the point. The facts are not eliminated by the citings you're deploying.

IF we get the picture on this matter, that which is contrary to the Spirit/evil present actually has an opposite reaction to the scriptures i.e. RESISTANCE to them.

 

[Cyberseeker]

That's pretty typical of Protestants to just disregard Catholics and Orthodox Christians who number more than one billion. Reformed Theology is an invention of the 16th century which was used by the German princes as an excuse for 100 years of war and the death of around 3 million people "in the name of the Lord." Modern Dispensational theology is an invention of the 19th century. The "other" Christianity is practiced by the billion or so people you have chosen to ignore.

Lets keep to topic. Could you go back to the opening post, then show me the difference between Covenant Theology and Catholic understanding of the same subject. Please don't digress on to who the middle ages nasties were. Im only interested in seeing a Catholic comparison with the 7 points I made in my opening post.

 

[Jim Parker]

Lets keep to topic. Could you go back to the opening post, then show me the difference between Covenant Theology and Catholic understanding of the same subject. Please don't digress on to who the middle ages nasties were. Im only interested in seeing a Catholic comparison with the 7 points I made in my opening post.

I can't speak for the Catholic church as I am not a Roman Catholic.
But, I can give you my opinion. (no extra charge)
Dispensational Theology

1. God has two distinct people – Israel and the Church.
2. The Church age was a parenthesis in God’s dealing with Israel.
3. God’s promises to Israel were postponed till after the rapture.
4. After a Jewish tribulation revival, their ‘dispensation’ will resume.
5. Worship in the millennium includes re-instituted temple sacrifice.
6. The promised temple is an example of what must yet be fulfilled.
7. Modern Israel proves not all promises are fulfilled in the Church.

Covenant Theology

1. God has always only had but one spiritual people.
2. The Church (incl. Jew & Gentile) actually is true Israel.
3. God’s promises to Israel are fulfilled in Christ’s Church.
4. There will be a revival of Jews but it will be into the Church.
5. Redemption is in the cross and sacrifice is finished forever.
6. Even if a temple gets rebuilt it is unnecessary and irrelevant.
7. The modern restoration of the nation of Israel is coincidental.

Jim's Orthocostal notions
1. God's desire is that all of mankind would be "His people" and has used various groups throughout history to be His representatives. One group is natural Israel, who are now experiencing "blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (Ro 11:25 NKJV). Meanwhile, the Church (all denominations and flavors) are acting as His ambassadors and royal priesthood.
2. The Church has been grafted in to Israel. (Ro 11:24) The division between Israel and the Church is only apparent.
3. God's promises to Israel have been partially fulfilled in that they have in Jesus the son of David who site eternally on the throne to rule all nations. It will be completed when He comes again.
Oh! Yes, the "rapture" teaching is nonsense, IMHO, Jesus is only coming one more time to judge the living and the dead and that's when we who are still alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air. (1 Thes 4:16-17)
4. All the Jews will be saved when the last Gentile to be saved is saved. (Ro 11:25-26)
5. This is the millennium. (Mat 28:18) "1000 years" is a metaphor for a long time. Devout Jews will probably build a temple and offer sacrifices. (They're already doing so in Samaria.) The cross fulfilled any and all sacrifice.
6. see 5
7. Modern Israel is a fulfillment of prophesy. (Isa 43:4-6)

And there you have it.
Enjoy!

iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

being a jew. Im not one to see isreal in prophecy as in the atheist founder ben gurion