'Death', 'destroy' and 'destruction'

[Oscar3]

While I will admit I am way over my head discussing this with you guys, I will give it a try. fIRST answer these questions. I copied this from the locked thread that jg wrote. I would also like to appologize to all of you guys for offending you.

here is a part of the post
The deciding factor at this judgment is whether ones name is written in the Book of Life. Actually if a persons name had been inscribed there, he would have already been a part of the first resurrection. So this verse applies only to those who stand before the Great WhiteThrone.

It’s important to note, that once you are condemned to Hell for all eternity, this means for ever and ever. There is no such doctrine as annihilation. There is no verse in the entire bible that teaches annihilation.. There are plenty of verses that speak of an everlasting Hell.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Mat 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was hungry, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2Th 1:5-9 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--
since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[guibox]

First of all, oscar, let me thank you for allowing your alter ego to come through and create a reasonable, thought out, rational and 'non-screaming', accusatory post. I wish you had done so before.

Second, I am not going to answer your posts because we have done all this before and I started this thread to address a specific aspect of annihilation/eternal torment; that is, the language of destruction and the words used in the Bible.

Can you (and anybody else) address the original post and show where the words for 'destruction', 'destroy' and 'death' in their original language and context don't mean what they mean specifically in relation to the fate of the wicked?

IF YOU FOLKS COULD KEEP THIS FOCUSED ON THE ORIGINAL POST, I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT.

Thanks

 

[Oscar3]

First of all, oscar, let me thank you for allowing your alter ego to come through and create a reasonable, thought out, rational and 'non-screaming', accusatory post. I wish you had done so before.

Second, I am not going to answer your posts because we have done all this before and I started this thread to address a specific aspect of annihilation/eternal torment; that is, the language of destruction and the words used in the Bible.

Can you (and anybody else) address the original post and show where the words for 'destruction', 'destroy' and 'death' in their original language and context don't mean what they mean specifically in relation to the fate of the wicked?

IF YOU FOLKS COULD KEEP THIS FOCUSED ON THE ORIGINAL POST, I WOULD APPRECIATE THAT.

Thanks

tHE QUESTIONS that I posted for you are an answer to your quetsions? You have single words to try and prove your point. I have complete verses to to prove my point. Now if you don't want to answer my questions, I will take it as an answer that you are wrong and I am right.

 

[Spirit Driven]

Are you trying to spoil it for those who want to believe that those who disagree with them will endure eternal torment? :wink:

LOL, I like your sense of humour Brad....... for some reason I have been drawn back here.... I attribute that to God.

Jesus actualy said..... behold I make all things new.

When it comes to the crunch, you gotta define what that word ALL means to you.
God has locked all in varying degrees of disobedience, some to the point of only seeing what they want to see, and closing their ears off to what they hear...



Peace

 

[TanNinety]

Oscar, I am not going to address the main content of your post because it has already been answered in the locked thread "HELL". You might want to go through them instead of reiterating something that has already been dealt with.

Now, since you seem so sure of your answers(which are questions) let me point out a glaring mistake in your post.

They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

You want to disagree with what was said in revelation about where they are tormented Oscar? AWAY or IN the prescence of the lamb?

 

[Spirit Driven]

Oscar, I am not going to address the main content of your post because it has already been answered in the locked thread "HELL". You might want to go through them instead of reiterating something that has already been dealt with.

Now, since you seem so sure of your answers(which are questions) let me point out a glaring mistake in your post.


You want to disagree with what was said in revelation about where they are tormented Oscar? AWAY or IN the prescence of the lamb?

Do you remember when Jesus was invited to read from the Holy scriptures at the Synagoge ?

Sometimes I think how awesome it would have been to be sitting in the Synagoge that day listening to Jesus read from Isaha.....
Most of the listeners would have been familiar with the passages Jesus was reading from.... how God would send a sign that he had broken through to this world irravocably...... I wonder if there where any raised eye brows when Jesus deliberatly ommitted... punishment for the wicked... as he read from Isaha that day ?

Looking back I wonder if any of the audience in that Synagoge truly realised who he was.......


Peace

 

[guibox]

tHE QUESTIONS that I posted for you are an answer to your quetsions? You have single words to try and prove your point. I have complete verses to to prove my point. Now if you don't want to answer my questions, I will take it as an answer that you are wrong and I am right.

oscar, plese quit SHOUTING.
oscar, you quoted 'everlasting destruction'. How can you say that the individual words don't mean anything? The words are what determines the context of the verse!

When we find out that destruction means 'destruction' then 'everlasting' is talking about the results, not the duration. You cannot have a continual process of something that is final and temporary.

Please apply logic and reason and quit spouting off texts with no reference or explanation to its content and context and then call it 'truth'.

I ask you again to not turn this into a 'I'm right, you imps of the devil, because the Bibile says so!' like the last thread when we are using the bible to interpret itself instead of preconceived notions read into the text.

 

[Oscar3]

well,
Being that you lost that debate on the topic of Hell, it does not surprise me that you don't want to discuss it. I also see Spirit driven AKA UR AKA False teacher is back. It figures since your all from the same sect.

False teachers of annihilation: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong/plain truth magazine.

Annihilationists argue that if you burn some paper, it is eternally destroyed and that is how we should view hell. Lets check it out in the Bible!



Annihilation is a member of "Domino Theology" family of doctrines
(Refute one element & refute the whole system!)



See also: Debate: Truth vs. an annihilationist!

This outline is dedicated to:

1. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. Dan 3:19
2. Moses, who saw the burning bush (pictured right) that was not consumed by fire. Ex 3:2
3. And to God, who can do all things!

Annihilationists like to refute this false concept of hell invented by an antagonist named "Dante". When Annihilationists refute this concept of hell, Bible believers wonder what the point is? Their false doctrine of annihilation is not proved right, just because they prove Dante’s equally false concept of hell wrong! Yet you will notice that almost all annihilationists dishonestly try to represent Dante’s false view of hell as that which orthodox Christians believe!


http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

 

[Oscar3]

Looking back I wonder if any of the audience in that Synagoge truly realised who he was.......
Peace

You still Don't know who he is.

Matt 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? 23 And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

 

[SputnikBoy]

well,
Being that you lost that debate on the topic of Hell, it does not surprise me that you don't want to discuss it. I also see Spirit driven AKA UR AKA False teacher is back. It figures since your all from the same sect.

False teachers of annihilation: Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, Herbert W. Armstrong/plain truth magazine.

Annihilationists argue that if you burn some paper, it is eternally destroyed and that is how we should view hell. Lets check it out in the Bible!



Annihilation is a member of "Domino Theology" family of doctrines
(Refute one element & refute the whole system!)



See also: Debate: Truth vs. an annihilationist!

This outline is dedicated to:

1. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, who were thrown into a furnace of fire, yet were not consumed. Dan 3:19
2. Moses, who saw the burning bush (pictured right) that was not consumed by fire. Ex 3:2
3. And to God, who can do all things!

Annihilationists like to refute this false concept of hell invented by an antagonist named "Dante". When Annihilationists refute this concept of hell, Bible believers wonder what the point is? Their false doctrine of annihilation is not proved right, just because they prove Dante’s equally false concept of hell wrong! Yet you will notice that almost all annihilationists dishonestly try to represent Dante’s false view of hell as that which orthodox Christians believe!


http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm

Oscar, buddy, pal ...for the first time EVER on this forum I put you on 'ignore' for a while ...something I hate to do. You're now not on my ignore list (I don't have an ignore list) but you soon will be again if you don't lose your aggressive tone. You apologized for this very thing a few posts back and now you're returning to the very attitude you apologized for.

I would suggest that if you can't discuss this issue with intelligence and scriptural savvy that, in your own and EVERYONE's best interest, you disqualify yourself from this thread. Either that or everyone - please - ignore anything that is glaringly none other than aggression. We might tolerate this kind of behavior but we don't need to feed it.

 

[Oscar3]

Sputman
I have provided scriptures and resources and you choose to ignore them. I preach not for you, because I believe you are lost in your EDIT and EDIT, but for thoose who would read and see through your EDIT. I have spoken no lies. I speak only with what is according to rules of the boeard. The very TOS you guys viloate all the time with your false teachings


All Edits made by Atonement 10/22/06 2:08AM PT

 

[SputnikBoy]

Oscar, against my better judgment I'm going to give a brief response to your above post. You've been most rude to at least three people on this thread so far AND IT MUST STOP ...savvy?

 

[Atonement]

Oscar.. Cool it down some, would you please? Also please don't use large font to prove a point on every response. I think you can do this little bit for the sake of argument right?

Thanks
Atone

 

[mutzrein]

Oscar there is more than one way of conveying a message. One is shouting (and your use of large text is deemed to be shouting in this context). Another, is the way that the Lord speaks to me. It is the 'still small voice'.

And this is what I have learned in this respect. Those to whom God speaks, are receptive to what the Spirit says. And Jesus said that those who are his will be known by their fruit. And the Spirit doesn’t require anything less than what is within the bounds of the fruit of the Spirit in order to convey the message.

 

[SputnikBoy]

It isn't just that, mutz (and atonement) ...Oscar is also insulting and slandering other people and I, for one, want this to stop! I don't want to give this man any credit or benefit of the doubt whatever until his attitude changes. He is totally disruptive and we can't continue this discussion in any orderly fashion until this behavior changes. Y'hear that, Oscar?!

 

[Atonement]

I hear you, and I hear all those posting here. Therefore I asked that Oscar cool it down. If he doesn't, proper action will be given.

-Atone

 

[guibox]

oscar,

I have yet to see you from your own words try and dispel the arguments straight from the bible that we've put forth.

Are you going to discuss this from the bible in context, taking into account the whole matter on this subject or are you going to continue shouting your 'cult' ramblings at us?

Prove the linguistics wrong of my original post and show where these terms in applying to the wicked don't mean what they say.

Until you and others can address that, we cannot go much further in understanding if the wicked are tormented for eternity and what Revelation 14 and 20 are meant to be read as.

 

[Atonement]

Oscar, your last post was deleted. Never put someone in a "sect" box again. This is your final warning on the issue.. If you can not obey what I have asked from you here on this thread. Proper action will be taken. I'm apart of no "sect" but I know how to be bold, and hardcore w/o using large fonts and/or violating a single rule. Set your own example...

-Atone

 

[lovely]

Hi Guibox,

I saw no problem with your list of possible definitions at all. I think the thing that we can count on, above all else, is that Scripture ultimately defines itself. I think to believe in annihilation is to ignore a lot of Scripture, and the Truthful teachings of Christ, and to not read things in the light of Truth.

First of all, I will steal from solo and say that Christ's careful parables to us are accurate pictures despite the debates about them being actual events or not. Christ would not paint a false picture of something. The Rich Man and Lazarus MUST be accurate in picture at the very least.

Secondly, I see how "traditionalists" are viewed as those who have not studied Scripture, but adhere to a doctrine as an Idol. I suppose the impression is that that can't possibly happen with a more modern, and "progressive" doctrine. We must not ignore Scriptures to assert one view...even if it seems nicer. We can not add, or take away, for the sake of the Lost.

Third, these "traditionalists" can't wait to see people burn in Hell, and that is why they have designed such a place, because the desire that people should burn in Hell for eternity instead of a more fair judgement. First of all, God is Holy, and I believe that His Holiness is such that Hell for eternity is probably the only just way to deal with His enemies. Does that mean that I desire people to be lost to this state of eternal wrath? NO, and that is exactly why I believe, and share, the Truth of it...So, that the Truth can be either accepted, or rejected, but not watered down, or mixed with lie, to make it more pleasing to the ears. Where's the sense in selling a batch of lies, only to have those who hear them remain lost? That's not love. So, it is because of LOVE that we share the whole truth.


Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

I have seen how everyone is claiming to have the best argument, but Scripture is the only thing that we need not arguments of men.

Matthew 25:34Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Anyway, the Lord bless all of you.

 

[guibox]

Hi Guibox,

First of all, I will steal from solo and say that Christ's careful parables to us are accurate pictures despite the debates about them being actual events or not. Christ would not paint a false picture of something. The Rich Man and Lazarus MUST be accurate in picture at the very least..

I disagree for three reasons:

1) Christ was not trying to show what the afterlife was about in this parable at all, hence, it doesn't matter on accuracy of the facts or not just like all his other parables. If you really look at the symbolism of it, we see that the Pharisees standing as 'Abraham's heirs' has made them neglect to accept the Gentiles and the hardness of their hearts. It was about proper stewardship, not about the afterlife.

2) Part of making two 'dead' people to converse is to use personification for the sake of the story (kind of like that lady who does the dialogue narration for Desperate Housewives. Do you think she is really a ghost looking on or merely a creative narration ploy on the part of the producers. Notice at the end of the parable that they are 'dead', not alive. 'Nay, even if one rose from the dead they wouldn't believe him'

3) Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees who had their own beliefs. Right or wrong, it was the best way to hit the point home. Notice that Jesus used 'Abraham' as a central figure. The whole point was about the great emphasis and pride the Pharisees placed on being part of 'Abraham's seed'

Third, these "traditionalists" can't wait to see people burn in Hell, and that is why they have designed such a place, because the desire that people should burn in Hell for eternity instead of a more fair judgement. First of all, God is Holy, and I believe that His Holiness is such that Hell for eternity is probably the only just way to deal with His enemies. Does that mean that I desire people to be lost to this state of eternal wrath? NO, and that is exactly why I believe, and share, the Truth of it...

So I will ask three questions...

1) What happened to the destiny of man when he sinned

2) For what purpose did Jesus come to die for man's sins

3) What happened to Jesus on the cross and why was his resurrection so important?