[_ Old Earth _] Debunking Evolution:

[Adam]

Actually, you hit the proverbial brick wall at the starting line. Can you demonstrate Darwinian myth is supported by science or are your past few posts about all you have?

I don't know what "Darwinian myth is." Why would I defend it?

 

[zeke]

Don't know what "evolutionism" is.

Of course you do - I have shown you before but let me re-educate you. It is the evolutionism that Dawkins, et al preaches. The same evolutionism you try to fit into your version of theism. But it can't be done.

Evolutionism - the non-scientific notion that the universe is the result of accidental randomness and all life arose via blind chemical processes that did not have man in mind, and all life on this planet shares a universal common ancestor - from garbanzo bean to gorillas.​

Do you have evidence that garbanzo beans, gorillas and man share a common ancestor?

 

[zeke]

I don't know what "Darwinian myth is." Why would I defend it?

Darwinian myth - the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor. Can you defend that notion Adam or it that over your head? Barbarian is still scratching his head and looking for his missing in action evidence. Help him out.

 

[Ravenplucker]

Darwinian myth - the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor. Can you defend that notion Adam or it that over your head? Barbarian is still scratching his head and looking for his missing in action evidence. Help him out.

I think it would be more accurate to say you're blocking your ears and yelling "La la la la!".

 

[Barbarian]

In a letter to Joseph Dalton Hooker on February 1, 1871,[15] Charles Darwin addressed the question, suggesting that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, so that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes". He went on to explain that "at the present day such matter would be instantly devoured or absorbed, which would not have been the case before living creatures were formed." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of The Origin of Species

Surprise.

Life on Earth really did start on land in a "warm little pond" and not in the oceans - just as Charles Darwin said more than 140 years ago.

Darwin left that out of his theory, because he didn't have any evidence for it. He did speculate that it happened in a warm little pond and that God did it. But neither of those are part of the theory of evolution.

"classical Darwinism is atheism. No God allowed."

And yet Darwin wrote about the Creator breathing life into the first forms. And the role of theists is long for evolutionary science, including some of the greatest today.

You've been fooled again, it seems.

Substitute 'modern evolutionary theory' and you have this:

"modern evolutionary theory is atheism. No God allowed."

Francisco Ayala, Kevin Miller, Francis Collins and many other Christians who are important figures in evolutionary science would have a good laugh at that silliness.

Curious that you, a catholic, should be such a staunch supporter

The truth matters. It should matter to you, too.

despite the vast acres of evidence which show clearly that modern evolutionary theory is a non-starter.

I don't think unsupported denial is going to work for you. Why not learn a little bit about it, and see why so many Christians are significant contributors to evolutionary theory?

You have nothing to lose but the blinders.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Don't know what "evolutionism" is.

Of course you do - I have shown you before but let me re-educate you. It is the evolutionism that Dawkins, et al preaches. The same evolutionism you try to fit into your version of theism.

Sort of like the orange leprechuans hiding under your bed, then. I thought you knew that science can't be put into a religious belief. God uses natural processes for most things in this world, but how the world works is not part of any religious belief.

Evolutionism - the non-scientific notion that the universe is the result of accidental randomness and all life arose via blind chemical processes that did not have man in mind,

So it's a creationist strawman, then. Or maybe a really ignorant misunderstanding about what science says about evolution. Hard to say. No wonder I didn't recognize it. You guys have some really odd ideas about what science is.

and all life on this planet shares a universal common ancestor - from garbanzo bean to gorillas.

As Linnaeus first discovered, living things fit into a nested hierarchy, which is found only in cases of common descent. Since Linnaeaus, genetics, molecular biology, anatomy, and the numerous predicted transitionals all confirm the fact of common descent.

 

[Adam]

Darwinian myth - the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor. Can you defend that notion Adam or it that over your head? Barbarian is still scratching his head and looking for his missing in action evidence. Help him out.

I can't enter this all into one post. I've been limited to 15000 characters.

Here's the first installment. Enjoy!

1. ^ 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution; Protein functional redundancy, Douglas Theobald, Ph.D.
2. ^ Belshaw, R ; Pereira V; Katzourakis A; Talbot G; Paces J; Burt A; Tristem M. (2004). "Long-term reinfection of the human genome by endogenous retroviruses". Proc Natl Acad Sci USA 101 (14): 4894–99. DOI:10.1073/pnas.0307800101. PMC 387345. PMID 15044706. //www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=387345.
3. ^ Bonner TI et al. (1982). "Cloned endogenous retroviral sequences from human DNA". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 79 (15): 4709–13. DOI:10.1073/pnas.79.15.4709. PMC 346746. PMID 6181510. //www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pmcentrez&artid=346746.
4. ^ Pallen, Mark (2009). Rough Guide to Evolution. Rough Guides. pp. 200–206. ISBN 978-1-85828-946-5.
5. ^ a b TalkOrigins Archive. "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 2". http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms. Retrieved 2006-11-08.
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7. ^ a b c JPG image
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12. ^ Held, Lewis I. (2010). "The Evo-Devo Puzzle of Human Hair Patterning". Evolutionary Biology 37 (2–3): 113. DOI:10.1007/s11692-010-9085-4.
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14. ^ a b 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: Part 1. Talkorigins.org. Retrieved on 2011-12-06.
15. ^ Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution is True. Viking. pp. 8–11. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9.
16. ^ Charles Darwin (1859). On the Origin of Species. John Murray. p. 420.
17. ^ Natan Slifkin (2006). The Challenge of Creation.... Zoo Torah. pp. 258–9. ISBN 1-933143-15-0.
18. ^ Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution Is True. Viking. pp. 69–70. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9.
19. ^ Mary Jane West-Eberhard (2003). Developmental plasticity and evolution. Oxford University Press. p. 232. ISBN 0-19-512234-8.
20. ^ "Example 1: Living whales and dolphins found with hindlimbs". Douglas Theobald. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1. Retrieved 2011-03-20.

 

[Adam]

1. Charles Darwin (1859). On the Origin of Species. John Murray. p. 420.
2. ^ Natan Slifkin (2006). The Challenge of Creation.... Zoo Torah. pp. 258–9. ISBN 1-933143-15-0.
3. ^ Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution Is True. Viking. pp. 69–70. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9.
4. ^ Mary Jane West-Eberhard (2003). Developmental plasticity and evolution. Oxford University Press. p. 232. ISBN 0-19-512234-8.
5. ^ "Example 1: Living whales and dolphins found with hindlimbs". Douglas Theobald. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.html#atavisms_ex1. Retrieved 2011-03-20.
6. ^ Mark Ridley (2004). Evolution (3rd ed.). Blackwell Publishing. p. 282. ISBN 1-4051-0345-0. http://books.google.com/?id=b-HGB9PqXCUC&lpg=RA1-PA281.
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8. ^ Williams, G.C. (1992). Natural selection: domains, levels, and challenges. Oxford Press. ISBN 0-19-506932-3.
9. ^ Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution is True. Viking. pp. 26–28. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9.
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15. ^ "Obviously vertebrates must have had ancestors living in the Cambrian, but they were assumed to be invertebrate forerunners of the true vertebrates — protochordates. Pikaia has been heavily promoted as the oldest fossil protochordate." Richard Dawkins 2004 The Ancestor's Tale Page 289, ISBN 0-618-00583-8
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18. ^ a b Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution is True. Viking. pp. 91–99. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9.
19. ^ Menkhorst, Peter; Knight, Frank (2001). A Field Guide to the Mammals of Australia. Oxford Uniersity Press. p. 14. ISBN 0-19-550870-X.
20. ^ Michael Augee, Brett Gooden, and Anne Musser (2006). Echidna: Extraordinary egg-laying mammal. CSIRO Publishing.

 

[Adam]

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[Adam]

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[Adam]

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[zeke]

I thought you knew that science can't be put into a religious belief.

Well, you would think we all knew that but Darwinism has done the impossible - passed off religion as science and you theistic evolutionists (an oxymoron) have swallowed it - hook, line and sinker. Odd but true...

‘Evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science. Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality. I am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-Christian, but I must admit that in this one complaint—and Mr Gish is but one of many to make it—the literalists are absolutely right. Evolution is a religion. This was true of evolution in the beginning, and it is true of evolution still today.

‘… Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’

Michael Ruse - evolutionist and former professor of philosophy and zoology at the University of Guelph (Canada).​

 

[zeke]

Here's the first installment. Enjoy!

<yawn>

Can you defend the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor Adam or it that over your head? Rhetorical question. Of course you can't.

 

[Adam]

<yawn>

Can you defend the notion that man and chimp have a common ancestor Adam or it that over your head? Rhetorical question. Of course you can't.

I laid it out for you. All the information you need is right there. You didn't even have to try googling it yourself first. I'm not going to spoonfeed you this. You're an adult, aren't you?

I've done my homework. Now do yours.

 

[zeke]

I laid it out for you. All the information you need is right there. You didn't even have to try googling it yourself first. I'm not going to spoonfeed you this. You're an adult, aren't you?

I've done my homework. Now do yours.

LOL -then you admit you do not have a clue and simply cut and paste obscure references that you do not vaguely understand. I thought as much. When you can actually defend your position on this thread with your own thought process feel free to do so - in the meantime I will not hold my breath.

 

[Adam]

LOL -then you admit you do not have a clue and simply cut and paste obscure references that you do not vaguely understand. I thought as much. When you can actually defend your position on this thread with your own thought process feel free to do so - in the meantime I will not hold my breath.

If that's your opinion, fine.

It's inconsequential to me.

You've basically been trolling this whole time and no amount of evidence will satisfy you anyway.

Cheers.

 

[zeke]

...no amount of evidence will satisfy you anyway.

Cheers.

You have presented "no amount of evidence" on this thread that supports your notion that Darwinian myth is science. We are here to evaluate what you have to present. If you have nothing just say you have nothing.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian chuckles:
I thought you knew that science can't be put into a religious belief.

Well, you would think we all knew that but Darwinism has done the impossible

Actually, it's the IDers. As you know, IDers desperately want their new religion to be science. But the (inadvertantly leaked) Wedge Document shows what they admit when they think no one is listening:

Governing Goals
To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and hurnan beings are created by God.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/20872000/The-Discovery-Institute-s-Wedge-Document

Surprise. Your guys are conflating religion and science, and as usual are accusing the rest of us of doing it.

Evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology, an explicit substitute for Christianity.’

Ruse's accusation lacks one essential thing. Evidence. I suggested that you go out and check for yourself. Find a scientist and ask him why he accepts evolution. If he says "Because Darwin said so", it's religion. If he cites evidence, it's science.

We've established that "intelligent design" is a religion. And we've repeatedly demonstrated that evolutionary theory is a science. No point in you banging your head against a wall here. Admit the obvious, and go on.

 

[Barbarian]

Adam, if evidence meant anything to Zeke, he'd have become an "evolutionist" a long time ago. And providing him with massive cites of evidence isn't going to help.

I'm not talking to him in the hope that he'll abandon his new religion. His use to us here is a cautionary one. When he makes testable claims about his faith in creationism or testable accusations against science, then we can show in detail how he's wrong.

He's serving as a bad example. I've been talking to such people for over a decade, and the "conversions" of truly indoctrinated creationists are perhaps one or two a year. Some years, no one. Rather, it's to let the people on the fence look at both sides of the issue and decide for themselves. And for that, Zeke makes an excellent example of creationist.

 

[zeke]

Ruse's accusation lacks one essential thing. Evidence.

Ruse makes a valid point - remember, he is anti-creationism and a card-carrying evolutionist in good standing. He is simply being honest. The evidence is in the historical record - go educate yourself.