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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Deconversion
- Thread starter Wrg1405
- Start date
Because I see too many verses in Scripture warning about staying the course, fighting the good fight, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, obeying His commands, the consequences of sin, etc. What I fear with the OSAS argument is that, whether intended or not, it seems to give people the idea that once we believe we are saved we are free to live our lives as we desire and no longer have to concern ourselves with loving God. Sort of like, "Whew! Thank God I'm saved. Let's party." I realize I'm expressing this in the extreme but I'm just trying to get my point across. I don't think we should ever allow ourselves to rest but continue to always fight against our carnal nature and not give in, even if we are saved.
Just my
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Just my
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smaller
Member
We have only one dictate with regards to a fellow believer who has sinned. Sin also includes the "sin" of unbelief. Is unbelief a sin? Yes.
John 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
So, what are we to do when we see a former believer, taken, captured again in the sin of unbelief?
Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
smaller
Member
Because I see too many verses in Scripture warning about staying the course, fighting the good fight, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling, obeying His commands, the consequences of sin, etc. What I fear with the OSAS argument is that, whether intended or not, it seems to give people the idea that once we believe we are saved we are free to live our lives as we desire and no longer have to concern ourselves with loving God. Sort of like, "Whew! Thank God I'm saved. Let's party." I realize I'm expressing this in the extreme but I'm just trying to get my point across. I don't think we should ever allow ourselves to rest but continue to always fight against our carnal nature and not give in, even if we are saved.
Just my
We all should recognize well enough that we do have a fight on our hands, in our faith.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
There are different reasons why.
One could be because a person was depending on a church instead of on the Lord. Most probably unconsciously. Then they become disillusioned with the church and so fall away.
Another reason could be that not everything was considered when becoming a Christian. We spoke of this in a different thread. Something bad happens to the person and they begin to doubt their faith. Their doubt deepens and they begin to doubt if God even exists until they no longer believe.
I don't know of anything that could stop the downward spiral. The Apostles knew of this. 2 Peter 2:20-22
I agree with WIP. The second chapter of 2 Peter speaks to this.
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Wrg1405
Member
So one answer for this is to ensure a proper birth of new believers.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
If by "proper birth" you mean proper teaching, then yes.
Teaching is all important to me. Our faith is based on reason. It is reasonable to have faith in a God that is not visible. The world tells us it is not reasonable. So there should be teaching as to why it is. There should be teaching to show that the resurrection is real.
People today are very studied. They're bombarded by every side as to why Christianity seems silly. We need to fight that with education. The bible could be a very simple book for the simple and a very deep book for those that have studied a lot.
I believe there is not enough teaching in churches today.
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smaller
Member
I have departed from more than one church sect because of their preoccupations with condemning believers, which I can no longer practice or tolerate.
This does not mean I have fallen away from anything other than from the intentions of damnation to believers, not the church and not from faith in Christ.
So, for example, all of us here adhere to the basic dictates of the early church(es), in the Nicene creed, as a functional basic "right" or "orthodox" understanding for believers. But many of us here no longer adhere to many of the other dictates/dogma's and drama's that these now very different sects have brought to the table that we can not agree with or adhere to.
IN their eyes we (may) have fallen. I do not see that as the case. We just don't agree on "everything" as they demand.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Please explain what you underlined. What other dictates or dogmas? Very different sects?
I'm far and don't know everything that's going on.
Thanks.
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Wrg1405
Member
turnorburn
Member
smaller
Member
There is a lot of "fine print" that comes with every christian sect. Some I can accept, and some I can not in "good faith" adhere to. Without getting into specifics. Generally speaking this could include various postures on legalism, or promotions that say Grace has to be externally administered by officials in order to have it, etc etc. These would be things I can not accept in "good faith" and I would be a hypocrite if I sat under such precepts, agreeing to them when I don't. This would be detrimental to my faith, being a hypocrite.
Reality sez every church is different in their fine print. None of them are really identical. There is a huge difference, let's say, between the Missouri Synod Lutherans and what used to be the American Lutheran Church, the association I was raised in, which has now, I believe, morphed into the ELC, which may be a little far on the liberal side for me.
Having came through a lot of stages in faith i.e. from Lutheran to RCC to Pentacostal, I've just seen and experienced a lot. Some good and some bad in all of them.
I am on easy street now, trying to "get along" with every believer in some way. I find no benefit in trying to divide myself from any believer NOR can I practice "condemning" any believer, even those who have departed the faith. I try to RESTORE. This is beneficial for "me" and my heart. And often I've seen this WORK.
But this does not have to entail agreeing with everyone on everything as that is, for me and probably for most, impossible.
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smaller
Member
Well, you know full well what I mean and which sects I'm speaking of. But we also know it can't be discussed so I'll leave it at that.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm with WIP. There are too many warnings to not walk away from the faith for it to be impossible to do so. And besides, my tongue talking wife left the faith. She admits it. That isn't just my personal opinion. So a person is just talking to the wind when they tell me the true children of God can't abandon their faith in Christ.
Education.
I agree with Wondering that the church does very, very poorly at teaching Christians the truths of the faith. In the Protestant church the problem is the excessive focus on evangelism at the expense of discipleship. Many of these churches define discipleship as being evangelistic, which is hardly the definition and which only compounds the problem 100 fold. We need to be evangelistic, of course, but not to the point that we simply lose converts later because of lack of knowledge resulting in weak and failing faith.
And because cheap grace and hyper-grace teachings are infecting the church so badly, we aren't allowing people to count the costs of coming to Christ. As a result, we're bringing hoards of people into the church who got taught an incomplete and cheapened salvation and who either aren't really converted at all, or are so weak in the faith that they don't mature. And these immature 'believers' get picked off very easily by the enemy. But the main problem for the church being, because of bad teaching, they think they are still secure in salvation and so they continue to hang around the church.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No question about it.
Besides having a faith that doesn't really result in conversion, many are simply so weak in their faith due to lack of knowledge that they wither away when trial and persecution comes.
turnorburn
Member
smaller
Member
Similar sights can be had with other sects as well. I have problems with sectarianism in general. I'd probably make a good Quaker or one of their ilks. It's hard to take the Lutheran out of me tho because I have very deep generational roots there and have found them to be generally very good people and very good believers. I also have affinity to old school holiness and some aspects of pentacostalism. Again, by associations that are meaningful to me, with those believers whom I love and will continue to love. I love RCC'ers too. But as we all should know, it's problematic to agree with everyone on everything. I don't think that's the way it's meant to be. The greater challenges are to love all believers. And that's hard space to find.Put that way i understand i thought it was something else..
Ultimately I found out that I don't even agree with myself. Gal. 5:17. And this kind of paved the way on getting along with everyone else, to a point.
Wrg1405
Member
This is what I'm looking for in my post. There is a need for proper foundational building for new beleivers. One that builds on the finished work of Christ and his foundation.
That then needs to followed up with what Jesus truly taught as being a disciple. Not fluffy stuff but the reality of life as a believer that it does not negate hardship and troubles but that God is the constant in the unconstant (not sure if that's a word but I like it)
We also need an outlet for those who have been beleivers for a while to be able to talk about any doubts/fears and challenges to their faith.