Deconversion

[GodsGrace]

There is a lot of "fine print" that comes with every christian sect. Some I can accept, and some I can not in "good faith" adhere to. Without getting into specifics. Generally speaking this could include various postures on legalism, or promotions that say Grace has to be externally administered by officials in order to have it, etc etc. These would be things I can not accept in "good faith" and I would be a hypocrite if I sat under such precepts, agreeing to them when I don't. This would be detrimental to my faith, being a hypocrite.

Reality sez every church is different in their fine print. None of them are really identical. There is a huge difference, let's say, between the Missouri Synod Lutherans and what used to be the American Lutheran Church, the association I was raised in, which has now, I believe, morphed into the ELC, which may be a little far on the liberal side for me.

Having came through a lot of stages in faith i.e. from Lutheran to RCC to Pentacostal, I've just seen and experienced a lot. Some good and some bad in all of them.

I am on easy street now, trying to "get along" with every believer in some way. I find no benefit in trying to divide myself from any believer NOR can I practice "condemning" any believer, even those who have departed the faith. I try to RESTORE. This is beneficial for "me" and my heart. And often I've seen this WORK.

But this does not have to entail agreeing with everyone on everything as that is, for me and probably for most, impossible.

I see what you mean about the fine print. There is no fine print with God!
One church believes that grace is received through Mary only. How did God disperse grace before this?!
I agree with you. And as to condemning believers. How is that possible when each and every one of us sins every day? Then we are all to be condemned.


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[Mike S]

We also need an outlet for those who have been beleivers for a while to be able to talk about any doubts/fears and challenges to their faith.

This is key. Even the strongest Christian is going to have a crisis of faith at least once. In fact, I don't think a man can even be a strong Christian until he's had his faith challenged.

 

[smaller]

I see what you mean about the fine print. There is no fine print with God!

Well, there is actually quite a bit of fine print. That's why it's problematic to agree on everything with everyone. But fortunately we have our Intercessor! Our Mediator. I might like to see Jesus as our Divine Attorney, able to "get us through" the fine print and plead our cases. Which I happen to think He Is and Will be quite successful at. And so, as I believe He is and Will be for me, I extend that sight to all other believers, understanding that we all do have quite factual difficulties.

One church believes that grace is received through Mary only. How did God disperse grace before this?!

Yeah, well, I'm not particularly into Mariolatry myself. But that's another subject. If someone wants to, in their own heart, condemn me for my lack of similar sights, so be it. They have only taken condemnation "into" themselves over the matters. Matters which I don't happen to either see in the fine print, or agree with.

I agree with you.

Amazing.

But alas, as you may know, I don't even agree with myself, so in my sight agreement is and will remain problematic. It's just something I've learned about myself and others over time. Gal. 5:17.

And as to condemning believers. How is that possible when each and every one of us sins every day? Then we are all to be condemned.

I learned long ago in business, and by extensions this has spilled over into my theological undertakings, that to solve problems they must be confronted. I found in both business and theology that conflict produces answers. If we stick our heads in the sand over our difficulties, it is very unlikely that we are "overcomers." Nevertheless I do not think that Jesus will fail any of us.

Love never fails. I'd like to be on the permanently winning team myself. But I also understand that not "all" of what I presently am, nor not all of what all believers presently are, will be moving on. And I'm OK with that. We'll see each others much differently at some point, and for that, I rejoice.

 

[Free]

If you beleive that a believer can walk away from the faith I would like to ask why you think that can happen and if there is anything that can be done to prevent it?

Why: a lack of discipleship; a lack of foundational teaching; a lack of biblical teaching; a lack of apologetics; worldly thinking that has entered the Church, including the loss of reason; failure to address sin, personally and corporately; hypocrisy in the Church; not providing a safe environment to talk about doubts and fears, which includes the phoniness of most Christians who make it seem like everything is and always has been okay.

What can be done: get back to the basics and fix those things listed above.

 

[smaller]

Why: a lack of discipleship; a lack of foundational teaching; a lack of biblical teaching; a lack of apologetics; worldly thinking that has entered the Church, including the loss of reason; failure to address sin, personally and corporately; hypocrisy in the Church; not providing a safe environment to talk about doubts and fears, which includes the phoniness of most Christians who make it seem like everything is and always has been okay.

What can be done: get back to the basics and fix those things listed above.

Thank you Free. That was quite refreshingly honest.

 

[Wrg1405]

I see what you mean about the fine print. There is no fine print with God!
One church believes that grace is received through Mary only. How did God disperse grace before this?!
I agree with you. And as to condemning believers. How is that possible when each and every one of us sins every day? Then we are all to be condemned.

I don't think there is fine print with God. It's all laid out there for everyone to see. Even the atheists and agnostics see it yet reject it. Bold print as such "My father my father why have you forsaken me, it is finished" can't get bolder than that. Yet before all that Jesus made it very clear what his purpose was and if we believe it won't be rosy, we would suffer etc. No fine print there either.
Love your words "and as to condemning believers " how sad we do that. Jesus did not condemn the adulteress woman and we can do the same with non beleivers yet we shoot our wounded. How very very sad. Plank, eye comes to mind.

 

[Wrg1405]

Well said Free. Your post and response has lifted my spirit.

 

[Wrg1405]

Like Thomas of the doubting kind

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Before casting out "OSAS" there are a few scriptures that we should consider.

1.) 2 Corinthians 5:17 " Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature; old things have passed away; behold , all things are become new." Would the "old things" be resurrected? What happens to the new creature?

2.) Galatians 6:15 " For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature."

3.) Ephesians 4:24 " And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." There is a holiness that is man made.
a. Colossians 2:20-23 "wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrine of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

Ephesians 2:10 " For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"

Romans 8:35-39 " Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come; nor heights; nor depths; nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Believers have been made aware of where they were without Christ and that they have been translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. They may fall into sins but they don't continually live in them.

 

[Wrg1405]

Interesting read from Bradley Wright


Does Christians’ bad behavior cause people to leave the faith? When we started this research project deconversion, I assumed that the most frequently-referenced cause would be Christians’ misbehavior—something along the lines of “I left the Church because Christians don’t act like Christians.” After all, this “Christians don’t act like Christians” narrative is extremely popular among Christian writers.

A majority (42 out of 50) of the deconverts that we studied did mention frustration with the Christians they knew, but it usually wasn’t misbehavior, per se, rather it was something that I never would have guessed: Frustration with how their fellow Christians reacted to their doubts


The way that Christians react to the doubts of others can, inadvertently, amplify existing doubt. Many of the writers told of sharing their burgeoning doubts with a Christian friend or family member only to receive trite, unhelpful answers. These answers, in turn, moved them further away from Christianity.

For example, a former Southern Baptist, rather harshly, identified this tendency among the Christians that he had known: “Christians have their PAT phrases for every little whim. . . Christians always use the word “faith” as their last word when they are too stupid to answer a question.”

Standard pat answers included statements such as: “God will never put more on you than you can bear,” “God works in mysterious ways,” “it was God’s will,” “your faith wasn’t strong enough,” “God wanted him in heaven,” and “God is testing you – stand firm!”

Frequently, such statements are not Biblical quotations but are common interpretations and understandings among Christians. One writer recounted, “I asked questions that no one else dared to ask, like ‘What about all the starving people in the third world?’ The answer I got was, ‘They are just as culpable as we are.’”


Ex-Christians were not only critical of fellow parishioners, but also of clergy’s and church lay-leadership’s failure to address the doubter’s questions. One ex-Christian wrote: “And to top all of it off, I could get no satisfying answers to my questions (they call them sinful doubts) even from the pastors and elders. I was told not to read the bible to try to find problems, that was a sin.”

In sum, the absence of thoughtful answers and the lack of listening carefully to questions were interpreted as both anti-intellectualism and a lack of empathy, leading the writers to feel trivialized.

Related were several remarks about rule enforcement. For example, a former member of an Assemblies of God church recounted an incident regarding his smoking. “I was struggling with smoking at this time, and was sincere about wanting to quit. At a prayer meeting one Thursday night, I told the group of 5 men about my struggle with tobacco. They proceeded to tell me that smoking was sin (the body being “the temple” of the Holy Spirit and all), and that “god doesn’t hear the prayer of a sinner.” What happened next stunned me. As the men took turns praying, it came to be my turn, and as I began to say my prayers, they all got up and walked away from me!!!”

Ultimately, Christians appear to contribute most directly to the deconversion process by reacting badly to those who are struggling with their faith, either in their belief or action.


We did find occasional mentions of Christian hypocrisy, but they tended to reference rather severe actions. For example, a former Pentecostal Christian, and now self-described Hellenic pagan, spoke of her “mistake” in dating a Fundamentalist Christian and how she felt abused by him. “I also found out that he was an addict, and had lied about it. . . After being with this person, I felt spiritually raped.”

Several writers commented on what they perceived as general, amoral behavior among Christians. One wrote that extra-marital sex was rampant in the church that he attended. “As long as you go church, you can have all the sex you want. I know this because I sat back in churches for 15 years watching people repent of Saturday’s escapade on Sunday morning.”

Just as commonly, however, the writers spoke fondly of their previous coreligionists and how they missed interacting with them more regularly. As I’ve written about at length, Christians do a lot of right things, and so maybe it shouldn’t be a surprise that hypocrisy wasn’t a main driving force away from the faith, at least in this small study.

What does this mean for us Christians? We need to come to terms with Christian doubt. For many people doubt is part of the Christian walk for many. Why even Mother Teresa felt deep doubts about her faith at times. It happens, and the real question is how do we respond to it in ourselves and others? How can we love the doubter in truth? I would be interested in your thoughts on this question, but it seems to me to require both of empathy and wisdom.


For pastors, it seems like a good idea for them to occasionally preach on doubt in the Christian faith. Hearing sermons about doubt would make us more accepting of our own times of doubt. It would also make us more sympathetic of other peoples’ doubt was well as equip us to respond to it wisely.

Thoughts?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Truthfully, in the end, all these things are really just excuses for people to not be Christians, not the cause. I mean, why would anyone let another person's hypocrisy and of lack of empathy rob them of the forgiveness of their sins and peace with God? That might make me stop going to church, or fellowshiping with Christians, but it certainly would not force me to abandon peace with God.

View attachment 9643I told my wife the reason I don't throw away my faith, despite any doubts I may have, is I want to keep the forgiveness of my sins. Her answer was that was not worth anything since God created us to sin anyway. You know, like he created a problem and then solves it....big deal!

The big thing I finally got out of all these years of trying to figure out my wife's relationship with Christianity was it really wasn't about doubt. I had kind of figured this out years ago about people who resist the faith altogether, or leave it later on: It really isn't about not having enough knowledge or faith (I mean, all it takes is a mustard seed). It's really a fundamental dislike for the kingdom of God. The reasons they give for not embracing the faith, or continuing to do so, end up really just being convenient criticisms to justify their dislike for the things of God.

Now I know that sounds unempathetic, and there are doubters who will insist it is, but it's really not. It's just a simple, non-emotional, generalized truth that I've observed. Unbelievers simply like the things and ways of the world more than the kingdom of God.

(Hey, I kind of like adding pictures to my posts.......kind of like a book.)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Before casting out "OSAS" there are a few scriptures that we should consider.

I think OSAS was only being cast aside in regard to the debate about whether it's true or not, not cast aside as to saying whether we are OSAS or not.

For the record, I'm non-OSAS.

 

[smaller]

Why even Mother Teresa felt deep doubts about her faith at times. It happens, and the real question is how do we respond to it in ourselves and others? How can we love the doubter in truth? I would be interested in your thoughts on this question, but it seems to me to require both of empathy and wisdom.

From practical experience, and having dealt with more than a few believers who have departed, often just departing meaning no longer hanging about with sectarian christians, I simply remind them that God in Christ LOVES them and that they are Gods child. This is the simple basis of restoration. Affirming them in His Love.

But there is an unpleasant aspect that fallen people have a hard time dealing with, and that even believers have a hard time engaging. And that is that we ALL do have "evil present with us." This is an unpleasant aspect of scriptural reality, and the root cause of all departures from the faith.

None of us tend to speak all that honestly about this fact. It's not like we have to trot it out in detail, but it is quite a simple fact of the Word's presentations. And yes, believers themselves are very hypocritical and in general denial of this matter for themselves. i.e. not all that honest about it.

For pastors, it seems like a good idea for them to occasionally preach on doubt in the Christian faith. Hearing sermons about doubt would make us more accepting of our own times of doubt. It would also make us more sympathetic of other peoples’ doubt was well as equip us to respond to it wisely.

Thoughts?

Trying to make the evil present with us in the flesh "obey" "concede to truthful scriptural facts" "be legal" "be in faith" "be under Grace" "be under Gods Mercy in Christ" is not only problematic, but impossible.

This simple fact, of evil's presence within our own flesh, between our own two ears, is at the core of all christian sectarianism and divisions/disputers and also at the core of falling away from the faith. How long can we continue to blame and accuse "other people" and refuse to look at ourselves honestly and see what is really going on?

And "evil present with us" is not going to care about hearing any of it. We all, in our own flesh, bear oppositions to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And that's really all there is to it.

In witnessing Christ, in establishing believers, in restoration, it is always on the agenda of the Spirit to "divide" from that working of "evil present with us" in the flesh, and not be it's pawns. But to say that we ourselves do not have this issue is in fact just another hypocritical lie. Often what we engage in restoration is a believer thinking that their own status of the flesh is somehow different than the fallen away from the faith, that "we" are better than they, and "we" are "looking down" at the other person. It's not the case. Both parties have the "identical problems." When it comes to having sin, we are no better than any other and we all "deal" with this identical internal issue, of evil present with us and sin dwelling in our own flesh. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:17-21.

The call of faith in Christ is to DOMINATE over this matter. To have dominion in Him. Not to lie about it. Not to cover it up. Not to pretend it's not a fact. Not to say we are something other than what we really are. We understand our need for His Mercy, because of this internal fact that we can not make evil present with us anything other than what it really is. Evil. And to raise up others OVER this matter, of evil's presence with us, to overcome. Even though we can not "rid" our flesh of this problem.

The world is always awash in this mix, of evil present, in every vile working. We are either pawns of it in our blindness, or we expose the facts for what it is. Every 'honest' conscience will come to a factual conclusion on this matter. It is just a somewhat sad reality that we have been put into this state of being, in the flesh. But that's life. God has quite purposefully subjected us to this state in our own flesh. Romans 11:32. Eph. 2:2.

People who fall from the faith did not LEARN that evil's presence with them is a manipulative pawning abuser that can make THEM it's captive and that it is NOT THEM as believers. And yes, it surely does so.

In attempts of "restoration" a clean cut has to be made, or at least attempted, between the fallen, and that working. We reason with one and put down the other. And in witnessing, a "division" from that working should be instilled, to understand it as an alien force, not ourselves, to the working of the Spirit.

Ultimately though, scriptural reality proves that it is GODS CHOICE alone how these chips fall. We can "reason" with evil's presence all the day long and it can be like water off a ducks back, irrelevant.

Romans 9:
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Many "ex believers" are some of the hardest people I have ever encountered. And I attribute that to God Himself, HARDENING the evil present within them. They will hear none of it, of the fact of evil's presence within them. Because that evil present has overtaken and overturned them in the flesh.

Romans 9:
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[for_his_glory]

If one does not build upon their faith and trust in God then they can be swayed by the deceptions of the world as God will send them strong delusion as they never truly received the love of truth that they might be saved, 2Thessalonians 2:3-12.

 

[GodsGrace]

If one does not build upon their faith and trust in God then they can be swayed by the deceptions of the world as God will send them strong delusion as they never truly received the love of truth that they might be saved, 2Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Great verse FHG.
I find that when trouble and deceptions and delusions come - and they will - a person responds depending on the strength of their relationship with the Lord; it either becomes stronger, or it becomes weaker. And sometimes it disappears altogether.

I also like Romans 5:2-6

• 2 through whom also we haveobtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God .3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance,proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Truthfully, in the end, all these things are really just excuses for people to not be Christians, not the cause. I mean, why would anyone let another person's hypocrisy and of lack of empathy rob them of the forgiveness of their sins and peace with God? That might make me stop going to church, or fellowshiping with Christians, but it certainly would not force me to abandon peace with God.

View attachment 9643I told my wife the reason I don't throw away my faith, despite any doubts I may have, is I want to keep the forgiveness of my sins. Her answer was that was not worth anything since God created us to sin anyway. You know, like he created a problem and then solves it....big deal!

The big thing I finally got out of all these years of trying to figure out my wife's relationship with Christianity was it really wasn't about doubt. I had kind of figured this out years ago about people who resist the faith altogether, or leave it later on: It really isn't about not having enough knowledge or faith (I mean, all it takes is a mustard seed). It's really a fundamental dislike for the kingdom of God. The reasons they give for not embracing the faith, or continuing to do so, end up really just being convenient criticisms to justify their dislike for the things of God.

Now I know that sounds unempathetic, and there are doubters who will insist it is, but it's really not. It's just a simple, non-emotional, generalized truth that I've observed. Unbelievers simply like the things and ways of the world more than the kingdom of God.

(Hey, I kind of like adding pictures to my posts.......kind of like a book.)

A couple of thoughts:
First, I think that people who are swayed away from Christianity because of how others act are probably doing so because they don't really understand that their relationship with God is a truly personal relationship. Maybe they thought Christians would be a group of very nice people who got along really well - maybe that "commune" mentality. Maybe they were just looking for a really nice social club. But Christians are not perfect creatures, they're just doing their best, so when this is discovered the become disillusioned and leave. The JW are good as a social club. They even have a dress code and their club functions like a totalitarian governing body, so if that's what some are looking for, okay. But Jesus is not there.

As to persons who say that God created a problem and then solved it, well - everyone who does not want to seek God will always find an excuse. I do find that the biggest excuse is evil and why it exists, which is really what was being expressed by this idea of God creating the problem.

I don't know about a dislike for the Kingdom of God. I believe it's more of an inability to see it. Jesus said you can only see it IF you are born from above. John 3:3.

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Standard pat answers included statements such as: “God will never put more on you than you can bear,” “God works in mysterious ways,” “it was God’s will,” “your faith wasn’t strong enough,” “God wanted him in heaven,” and “God is testing you – stand firm!”

Frequently, such statements are not Biblical quotations but are common interpretations and understandings among Christians. One writer recounted, “I asked questions that no one else dared to ask, like ‘What about all the starving people in the third world?’ The answer I got was, ‘They are just as culpable as we are.’”

Thoughts?

My only comment is that I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I really dislike pat answers.
They do more harm than good. We should be sensitive to other person's problems and realize that we don't really know what they feel like or what they are going through.

W

 

[Wrg1405]

My only comment is that I'd like to take this opportunity to say that I really dislike pat answers.
They do more harm than good. We should be sensitive to other person's problems and realize that we don't really know what they feel like or what they are going through.

So do I. I was absolutely mortified at some of what I read and it broke my heart. As I said previously we have a habit of shooting out wounded rather than tending to them.

Philippians 2:4 (NKJV)
4 Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.

Galatians 6:2 (NKJV)
2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.

Look at how Jesus dealt with Peter and Thomas.

 

[Wrg1405]

Sorry Wondering I seem again to have posted my response as part of your comment. For some reason it only seems to happen with you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry Wondering I seem again to have posted my response as part of your comment. For some reason it only seems to happen with you.

That's because I'm a special person!