Deconversion

[GodsGrace]

Regarding your post no. 38 about being insensitive to the problems of others -
sometimes the best thing to do is just to listen and reassure them that God loves them and is close to them, instead of saying things that do not uplift or encourage but tear down.

W

 

[Wrg1405]

That's because I'm a special person!

 

[chessman]

Churches need to shorten the length of all sermons if they want to prevent people from falling from the faith.

Acts 20:9 (LEB) And a certain young man named Eutychus who was sitting in the window was sinking into a deep sleep while Paul was conversing at length. Being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead.​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I don't know about a dislike for the Kingdom of God. I believe it's more of an inability to see it. Jesus said you can only see it IF you are born from above. John 3:3.

Born again people leave the faith, too. Not just those who were never really saved to begin with.

People who reject the kingdom and salvation in the end simply love the ways of the world more than the ways of the kingdom. You don't need the Spirit to know about the things of the kingdom--faithfulness, not comitting adultery, not lying, not stealing, etc. The 'seeing' that Jesus was talking about in John 3 is not just a spiritual enlightening to be able to 'see' the hidden kingdom of God. He means literally seeing it and entering into it when this age passes away.

We should be sensitive to other person's problems and realize that we don't really know what they feel like or what they are going through.

But what if we do know what they feel like and what they are going through?

As to persons who say that God created a problem and then solved it, well - everyone who does not want to seek God will always find an excuse.

My point exactly.
Ultimately, those who reject the kingdom simply do not want the kingdom. It's not ignorance, it's not even a lack of faith. It's a rejection of faith and knowledge concerning the kingdom. Not an absence of faith and knowledge.

 

[Wrg1405]

Churches need to shorten the length of all sermons if they want to prevent people from falling from the faith.

Acts 20:9 (LEB) And a certain young man named Eutychus who was sitting in the window was sinking into a deep sleep while Paul was conversing at length. Being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead.​

Interesting point. I would further add keep it simple with no big theological words that are left as big theological words.

 

[JLB]

Before I post my question I'm not looking for a debate on OSAS, but

If you beleive that a believer can walk away from the faith I would like to ask why you think that can happen and if there is anything that can be done to prevent it?

• Yes a believer can stop believing.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• Solution: Continue to believe,and endure steadfast unto the end of your life, in which you will receive the salvation of your soul.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith,being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9



Yes a person who is saved by faith, can indeed divorce himself, and depart from the very faith by which he was saved.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.1 Timothy 4

Solution: Don't listen to a doctrine of demons, that teaches it's impossible to depart from the faith, when the bible teaches that a person can most certainly depart from the faith by which they stand in Christ.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Born again people leave the faith, too. Not just those who were never really saved to begin with.

People who reject the kingdom and salvation in the end simply love the ways of the world more than the ways of the kingdom. You don't need the Spirit to know about the things of the kingdom--faithfulness, not comitting adultery, not lying, not stealing, etc. The 'seeing' that Jesus was talking about in John 3 is not just a spiritual enlightening to be able to 'see' the hidden kingdom of God. He means literally seeing it and entering into it when this age passes away.

I agree. We were discussing someone who was never saved. But, yes, believers can become lost by abandoning Jesus and His saving grace.

The Kingdom of God is present here right now for those who see it, but it also refers to the Kingdom to come at the end of this age and entering it literally, as you said.

But what if we do know what they feel like and what they are going through?

I believe we can never really know what another person feels like even if we have the same experience.
This is because no two people have had exactly the same life, no two people think exactly the same about anything; we're affected differently by the same experience due to the differences in our mental process. If my dog dies, and your dog dies, we can to some degree understand what the other person is feeling, but not exactly. My reaction will differ from yours. It might encourage you if someone tells you that you can always get a new puppy, but it might just make me even sadder.

My point exactly.
Ultimately, those who reject the kingdom simply do not want the kingdom. It's not ignorance, it's not even a lack of faith. It's a rejection of faith and knowledge concerning the kingdom. Not an absence of faith and knowledge.

Agreed.


W

 

[Wrg1405]

Yes a believer can stop believing.

Humour me if you will (that's a saying over here so not being rude)

Quantify stop believing. Now that may sound a pretty dumb question and it probably is.

How can we judge someone who we feel has stopped believing.

Here is my experience. I led a very successful youth group in our church. When I started it was in single figures when I left it was in triple figures (please note I'm not boasting) during this period I got married and had my first child. Was studying my accountancy exams. The team I was given to be honest was awful, in the end after many grumbles I decided to take the whole lot on me.

So whilst being a new dad, working in a day job, studying and I'll throw into the mix servere generalised anxiety (which suddenly happened in church 14 years earlier for no apparent reason) then spending 3-4 nights a week preparing youth group Sunday I came to the end of my tether.

I spoke to the elders and asked to be released from the youth group to which eventually they said yes. When they did so I explained that I was spiritually tired, emotionally tired could I have some input from them. They said no as I wasn't giving out any more and to add icing to the poison cake the youth group went back to single figures and that was my fault.

I was devastated, felt so guilty and worthless and that I had let God down also that he let me down.

I just stopped going to church. So when my second child was born, we wanted to dedicate her to God in a service at church. I was told by one of the elders I could not do that because I wasn't coming to church and how could I stand up and give my child to God. Truth is I did that when she was born straight away when she popped out.

I took contention with that and he relented. Reason being I told him that I had not lost my faith in Jesus but the church, if he expected me to act like nothing was wrong in my life to fill a pew then he had no idea what was going on. In fact during the period of not going to church some felt I was not one of them and I had fallen away, become a non beleiver.

I thank God for those sensitive to the Holy Spirit who prayed for years for me. Truth is though no one sought me out.

I never lost my faith in Jesus even though I left fellowship. I sought God every day when I was away yet those who did not know what I going through took time to judge me as an apostate. No one sought me out. Never a phone call or a hello how you doing.

Please people don't judge others who fall of the radar, put them on your radar. Be like Jesus seek those who have gone astray. Until they tell you to go away seek them out.

I was labeled an unbeliever but never lost my faith or rejected it but during this time I sought God so much.

Sorry for the long post

 

[WIP]

How can we judge someone who we feel has stopped believing.

I don't think we can. Only God knows one's heart.

 

[sparrow]

Before I post my question I'm not looking for a debate on OSAS, but

If you beleive that a believer can walk away from the faith I would like to ask why you think that can happen and if there is anything that can be done to prevent it?

yes it can happen.
I have known several who did just that.

Prevention... how about solid discipleship for new believers?
Also remember that with God's help they can find a way back.

 

[GodsGrace]

Humour me if you will (that's a saying over here so not being rude)

Quantify stop believing. Now that may sound a pretty dumb question and it probably is.

How can we judge someone who we feel has stopped believing.

Here is my experience. I led a very successful youth group in our church. When I started it was in single figures when I left it was in triple figures (please note I'm not boasting) during this period I got married and had my first child. Was studying my accountancy exams. The team I was given to be honest was awful, in the end after many grumbles I decided to take the whole lot on me.

So whilst being a new dad, working in a day job, studying and I'll throw into the mix servere generalised anxiety (which suddenly happened in church 14 years earlier for no apparent reason) then spending 3-4 nights a week preparing youth group Sunday I came to the end of my tether.

I spoke to the elders and asked to be released from the youth group to which eventually they said yes. When they did so I explained that I was spiritually tired, emotionally tired could I have some input from them. They said no as I wasn't giving out any more and to add icing to the poison cake the youth group went back to single figures and that was my fault.

I was devastated, felt so guilty and worthless and that I had let God down also that he let me down.

I just stopped going to church. So when my second child was born, we wanted to dedicate her to God in a service at church. I was told by one of the elders I could not do that because I wasn't coming to church and how could I stand up and give my child to God. Truth is I did that when she was born straight away when she popped out.

I took contention with that and he relented. Reason being I told him that I had not lost my faith in Jesus but the church, if he expected me to act like nothing was wrong in my life to fill a pew then he had no idea what was going on. In fact during the period of not going to church some felt I was not one of them and I had fallen away, become a non beleiver.

I thank God for those sensitive to the Holy Spirit who prayed for years for me. Truth is though no one sought me out.

I never lost my faith in Jesus even though I left fellowship. I sought God every day when I was away yet those who did not know what I going through took time to judge me as an apostate. No one sought me out. Never a phone call or a hello how you doing.

Please people don't judge others who fall of the radar, put them on your radar. Be like Jesus seek those who have gone astray. Until they tell you to go away seek them out.

I was labeled an unbeliever but never lost my faith or rejected it but during this time I sought God so much.

Sorry for the long post

This is horrifying. No wonder you talk about shooting our own.
Where is the love?
We are not to judge anyone as to whether or not they've stopped believing. WIP is right - only the person and God can know their heart. It's not for anyone else to know. One can be going to church regularly and not even be a disciple of Christ and one could be at home and be a believer.

Let me say that if I were attending this church, I would have left it. I do not see the spirit of God there.
Just as God is always willing to take us back, even if we fall away and abandon Him, so the church should be willing also and should accommodate a person in any way possible.

You did your best for your church and gave them your all. It should have been appreciated. And yes, when someone is missing from church, others should call and keep in touch. I hope you've found a better church where the love of God is present and felt.

God knows what you've done and that's all that matters: However, some human appreciation would also be nice to have. God bless you Wrg.


W

 

[Wrg1405]

yes it can happen.
I have known several who did just that.

Prevention... how about solid discipleship for new believers?
Also remember that with God's help they can find a way back.

Yes they can. Let's not stop praying for the way back.

 

[Wrg1405]

This is horrifying. No wonder you talk about shooting our own.
Where is the love?
We are not to judge anyone as to whether or not they've stopped believing. WIP is right - only the person and God can know their heart. It's not for anyone else to know. One can be going to church regularly and not even be a disciple of Christ and one could be at home and be a believer.

Let me say that if I were attending this church, I would have left it. I do not see the spirit of God there.
Just as God is always willing to take us back, even if we fall away and abandon Him, so the church should be willing also and should accommodate a person in any way possible.

You did your best for your church and gave them your all. It should have been appreciated. And yes, when someone is missing from church, others should call and keep in touch. I hope you've found a better church where the love of God is present and felt.

God knows what you've done and that's all that matters: However, some human appreciation would also be nice to have. God bless you Wrg.


W

Now you see why I'm obsessed with shooting our own. And I feel I have a calling to tender to the wounded. I just love to love hurting people and want to see them restored.

Same church differnt leadership. New elders sought me out and led me back. With love and compassion.

That's Jesus and that's his church

 

[GodsGrace]

Now you see why I'm obsessed with shooting our own. And I feel I have a calling to tender to the wounded. I just love to love hurting people and want to see them restored.

Same church differnt leadership. New elders sought me out and led me back. With love and compassion.

That's Jesus and that's his church

I'm happy to hear it.
People of God.
Praise the Lord Jesus.

Thanks for letting me know - it IS uplifting...


W

 

[smaller]

Now you see why I'm obsessed with shooting our own. And I feel I have a calling to tender to the wounded. I just love to love hurting people and want to see them restored.

Same church differnt leadership. New elders sought me out and led me back. With love and compassion.

That's Jesus and that's his church

And I would venture that when there are church members who often times seem only intent on diminishing faith and vaunting believers to the potential fate of hell, it will never happen. I had to put that sight aside to see the greater picture. That of our Successful Savior. NOT our (maybe, maybe not) successful selves. I can't base salvation on man, but on God in Christ, where that base of understanding belongs.

The foundations of man are obviously sinking sand. I eventually got sick of every Tom, Dick and Harry with a Bible dangling me over the pits of hell for not believing exactly and precisely "like they do." I won't be manipulated by such notions.

 

[JLB]

Quantify stop believing.

I would have to quantify "stop believing" under the context of which it was given by the Lord Jesus Christ.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Stop believing in Jesus Christ as the Messiah the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, by turning away from Him and back to Judaism, because of the persecution by unbelieving Jews.

That's the context.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21


The writer of the book of Hebrews says it this way -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

The condition of being a partaker of Christ, is predicated by the "if"... if we hold the beginning of our confidence [trust, faith] steadfast to the end.


We don't get to abandon our faith in Jesus Christ, under the threat of persecution or death, and expect to still be saved, since we have departed from the very thing by which we were saved... Faith!

That would be the delusion of being saved by unbelief.

No where in the bible are unbelievers promised anything except the fires of hell.

Jesus said it this way on the Mount of Olives -

Remember what He said in the parable of the sower... yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Matthew 24:9-14

Do you what the "witness" to the nations is, in this passage?

...this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Dying as a martyr for Jesus, during the tribulation, which will be the biggest persecution of the Church that there will have ever been.


Those who endure to the end will be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And I would venture that when there are church members who often times seem only intent on diminishing faith and vaunting believers to the potential fate of hell, it will never happen. I had to put that sight aside to see the greater picture. That of our Successful Savior. NOT our (maybe, maybe not) successful selves. I can't base salvation on man, but on God in Christ, where that base of understanding belongs.

The foundations of man are obviously sinking sand. I eventually got sick of every Tom, Dick and Harry with a Bible dangling me over the pits of hell for not believing exactly and precisely "like they do." I won't be manipulated by such notions.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?



JLB

 

[JLB]

That of our Successful Savior.

Our Savior was successful in purchasing our salvation, for those who believe, not for those who believe for a while, the return to unbelieving.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

JLB

 

[JLB]

And I would venture that when there are church members who often times seem only intent on diminishing faith and vaunting believers to the potential fate of hell, it will never happen. I had to put that sight aside to see the greater picture. That of our Successful Savior. NOT our (maybe, maybe not) successful selves. I can't base salvation on man, but on God in Christ, where that base of understanding belongs.

The foundations of man are obviously sinking sand. I eventually got sick of every Tom, Dick and Harry with a Bible dangling me over the pits of hell for not believing exactly and precisely "like they do." I won't be manipulated by such notions.

Not one single scripture, to back up another one of your "theories".

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


Please explain how it is we can depart from the living God, in unbelief, yet somehow still be a "believer".





JLB

 

[chessman]

Hebrews 3:17 (LEB) And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? ​

Yep. Including Moses.

You can take take the people out of Egypt but you can't take the Egypt out of the people.