Deconversion

[Jim Parker]

f you beleive that a believer can walk away from the faith I would like to ask why you think that can happen

Jesus said it could and gave reasons in His parable of the sower.
Luk 8:11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
Luk 8:12 “Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luk 8:13 “But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

and if there is anything that can be done to prevent it?

There's a few:
Attend Church weekly.
Take communion weekly.
Confession.
Reading the word.
Fellowship with mature Christians.
Fasting and prayer.
Getting involved in ministries of mercy. (Feed the hungry, etc.)
Have a spiritual father who will encourage and assist you in the pursuit of hoiliness.

 

[JLB]

Hebrews 3:17 (LEB) And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? ​

Yep. Including Moses.

You can take take the people out of Egypt but you can't take the Egypt out of the people.

Taking scripture out of context and attempting to smear the faithful man of Moses to try and prop up false doctrine is extremely disrespectful to God and Moses.

Here is the complete testimony of Moses's being faithful, as well as those who are and are not His house; Dwelling Place.

The testimony of the Holy Spirit about Moses: Moses was faithful in all his house.


Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all thingsis God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:2-6


Read it: whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.


More Context of Hebrews 3:

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:7-14


Moises did not harden his heart and rebel against God.


JLB

 

[chessman]

Taking scripture out of context and attempting to smear the faithful man of Moses to try and prop up false doctrine is extremely disrespectful to God and Moses.

What leads you to the conclusion/assertion that I am "taking Scripture out of context and attempting to smear the faithful man of Moses"?

Let's recap:
You posted Heb 3:12-14 and then asked "how it is we can depart from the living God in unbelief, yet somehow still be a believer?:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Please explain how it is we can depart from the living God, in unbelief, yet somehow still be a "believer".

I answered your question by pointing out the additional Scripture(s) that IS IN context with Heb 3:12-14 and gave the example of Moses as an explanation to your question. God was angry with Moses' unbelief/sin and as a result Moses fell in the wilderness.

Hebrews 3:17 (LEB) And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness?
Yep. Including Moses.

If you think the example of Moses is "out of context" with Heb 3, then take it up with the author of Hebrews 3, not me.
If you think God wasn't angry with Moses' unbelief and sin and thusly didn't get to enter into the land/rest, then take it up with God, not me.

Numbers 20:12 (NASB)
12 But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”​

Moises did not harden his heart and rebel against God.

Evidently he did. Heb 3:10-11 (LEB)

‘They always go astray in their heart,
and they do not know my ways.’
11 As I swore in my anger,
‘They will never enter into my rest
​

"harden your heart", "go astray in their heart ", are simply different ways to make the same point.

"They [including Moses, Num 20:12] will never enter into my rest"

 

[for_his_glory]

Great verse FHG.
I find that when trouble and deceptions and delusions come - and they will - a person responds depending on the strength of their relationship with the Lord; it either becomes stronger, or it becomes weaker. And sometimes it disappears altogether.

I also like Romans 5:2-6

• 2 through whom also we haveobtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God .3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance,proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

W

That's another great verse. I believe and I know many agree that every church needs a special class for new converts to teach them what salvation, grace and faith is all about. All a new convert gets is a "Welcome to the family" now read your Bible go to church and figure it all out for yourself. I know back in the day when I first accepted Christ, which was 44 years ago, I would have liked to have attended such classes to start out with as I had very little knowledge and soon fell away, but praise the Lord I now know He was always with me even though I felled Him so many times as I turned away from His grace.

 

[for_his_glory]

Churches need to shorten the length of all sermons if they want to prevent people from falling from the faith.

Acts 20:9 (LEB) And a certain young man named Eutychus who was sitting in the window was sinking into a deep sleep while Paul was conversing at length. Being overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead.​

I have to disagree with shortening the sermons, but that the sermons need to be teaching us, not boring us. Some like a feel good sermon that tickles their ears, but has nothing to do with Spiritual growth and leaves one empty inside. The church needs to be a place where we come to learn, to grow, to lift up and edify one another so no one who attends will fall from their faith, but to learn how to build upon their faith.

 

[smaller]

Our Savior was successful in purchasing our salvation, for those who believe, not for those who believe for a while, the return to unbelieving.
JLB

Always a question of "believe what." Anyone who has spent any amount of serious time in/with churches, studies of their positions, exposed to various members understandings which vary considerably in many cases knows that there is an abundance of nonsense floated as to what to believe or what one must believe. Believing things in one sect means people are unbelieving in contrary sect sights and vice versa.

Trying for consensus on a lot of subjects is virtually impossible. And don't think believers don't question "the churches" for these practices and end up not believing a LOT of things.

There are very liberal views in the scriptures that are available to believe and to extend to others and there are very harsh views that are available to believe and extend to others.

I don't believe in political theology, where believers are divided into liberal and harsh, left and right. Nor do I believe God Himself means us to see identically, because it's never been a reality.

In the end believers, I believe, generally speaking, all think they are doing only the right things. Believers are led by their own good/evil conscience and therein things work differently with everyone. We can't really make anyone believe anything nor can we prove what someone may believe.

Two people can read the same identical scriptures and come to entirely different understandings.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

If believers read the above and "pick only one side" of the equation above and ignore the other side, they simply aren't listening. Half the crowd will be on one side and half on the other. And both sides will apply the other side that they don't take to themselves in all sorts of manners.

And this gives rise to divisions and factions.

Some de-convert from these various factions and end up not picking sides. Do we really have to blame them for doing so? And if people hear differently what can really be done? Why does anything have to be done?

Everyone is probably convinced in their own minds that only their side is "right."

I think it's scriptural to "let" everyone be convinced in their own minds, even if what they are convinced of is not 100% perfect, which 100% perfect understanding no one has in any case.

I have met a handful of very sincere believers, very sincere, who think Jesus sinned in His Mind, like we do. And they can not be swayed from hold, from that understanding through any forms of scriptural reasoning. This understanding would rightfully be rejected by most/any common understanding in the churches. So what do we do with this situation? Call them unbelievers? I know they are not. They are believers who believe wrongly. And there are plenty of likewise in every pew on just about every subject. As even these boards prove daily.

What hurdle do we demand that others jump to "get into heaven?" To prove themselves? Some believers are just very stingy about heaven when it comes to how they view other believers or other people in general. I personally have no need to see others that way myself. Not interested. I de-converted from these stingy heaven people.

Make The Door AS WIDE as you can possibly see. A LOT more people will appreciate your efforts, and I believe this pleases God in Christ as well. When believers don't do this, eventually they get whittled down the other direction where they are a sect of "one" member, themselves, where no one can get into these people's heaven. Maybe God will give them a heaven consisting of only them. Might be pretty lonely there in eternity.

 

[smaller]

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

JLB

Depends on what you think you are seeing in these types of events.

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

What is our job in the above? Which one would you like to condemn? Which one to ignore? Which one to restore, to save, to share with?

These are the real questions we should ask ourselves in any situations, such as you note. I am quite willing to say that it is God Himself who controls what anyone sees and how they see this distinction, and IF NOT, then they themselves have been at least partly blinded by God, because God is not dealing with "only an individual." IF any person does not see that it is not just them they can neither read nor hear. It is God Himself, HARDENING the other party ala Mark 4:15 and Romans 11:8 for examples.

I believe there is and will always remain Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ to be held forth for the people of 2 Cor. 4:4, and there is eternal damnation to be held forth, to the respective parties.

To treat them the same will never compute.

I do not see these two parties as the same. Nor do I believe what comes out of the mouth of the unbeliever is "just them" speaking. IF God is with us, He shows how to cut the mustard.

 

[Wrg1405]

That's another great verse. I believe and I know many agree that every church needs a special class for new converts to teach them what salvation, grace and faith is all about. All a new convert gets is a "Welcome to the family" now read your Bible go to church and figure it all out for yourself. I know back in the day when I first accepted Christ, which was 44 years ago, I would have liked to have attended such classes to start out with as I had very little knowledge and soon fell away, but praise the Lord I now know He was always with me even though I felled Him so many times as I turned away from His grace.

I never fell away as such but I sure never grew up. I stumbled a lot and sometimes severely. Not growing up causes many issues in ones life and makes the Christian walk a lot harder than it needs to be.

 

[for_his_glory]

I never fell away as such but I sure never grew up. I stumbled a lot and sometimes severely. Not growing up causes many issues in ones life and makes the Christian walk a lot harder than it needs to be.

I hear ya Wrg. I guess I never really fell away back in the day, but only put faith (Jesus) on a back burner giving it no thought until the trials and tribulations in my life became so great and knocked me down that all I could do was to look up and see where my saving grace was always waiting for me to return.

 

[JLB]

Depends on what you think you are seeing in these types of events.

There is no "these types of events".

There is only a simple question.

Can you answer the question?

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?


It's Yes or No.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Always a question of "believe what."

Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God; the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.


JLB

 

[smaller]

There is no "these types of events".

There is only a simple question.

Can you answer the question?

Answered sufficiently. Needless to say we see what is going on quite differently.

For the unsaved, for the fallen in doubt believer, we should be seeing this:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are two parties in the above equation. Not one.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

I might consider that such a believer has fallen in this present life, by that other working/worker that is NOT THEM. I do not think God in Christ EVER abandons the person, once believed, ever. There are other sights to be had than "just the person." No differently than Satan speaking from Peter's lips. I don't see "just Peter." NOR would I hear the voice of denial as that person, but the voice of the "god of this world" blinding their minds, even speaking through them as Satan spoke through Peter.

God in Christ still loved Peter, regardless, and resisted/rebuked/condemned Satan "in the flesh of Peter" speaking through Peter's lips, SIMULTANEOUSLY.

It's Yes or No.
JLB

It's not as simple as your proposition supposes: That there is only one party and one speaker involved, because that is not the scriptural case. No differently than it was with any of us prior to salvation. Here was our state and our status according to how The Spirit saw us:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again this shows TWO parties. Not just one.

When we are saved, we have been effectively "divided from" that other party. But this does not mean we can not fall victim, again, to it's workings of blindness in this present life, in the flesh. This also doesn't equate that God in Christ "left the believer." God in Christ happens to be working also, adversely, against the other party that is NOT the saved person. That would be the "prince of this world, the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience." That spirit is not the person who is blinded by it. It is the adverse spirit(s) of our adversaries, the devil and his messengers.

 

[JLB]

What leads you to the conclusion/assertion that I am "taking Scripture out of context and attempting to smear the faithful man of Moses"?

Because you attempted to lump Moses together with those who rebelled against God.

Here is you statement:

Hebrews 3:17 (LEB) And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness?

Yep. Including Moses.

You can take take the people out of Egypt but you can't take the Egypt out of the people.

God was certainly not angry with Moses for 40 years, as Moses was faithful in all of his house.

The scripture also says of Moses:

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Deuteronomy 34:10

and again

Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth. Numbers 12:3

and again

And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
Hebrews 4:5

Moses also wrote the Torah, the first five books of the bible.


Yet you have lumped Moses in with those who God was angry within that generation, so you can attempt to somehow try prove that OSAS is true, by insinuating that because Moses died, he was rebellious like the children of Israel.

Here the scripture points to Moses as being faithful, unlike those whom God was angry with in that generation.


4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”



JLB

I answered your question by pointing out the additional Scripture(s) that IS IN context with Heb 3:12-14 and gave the example of Moses as an explanation to your question. God was angry with Moses' unbelief/sin and as a result Moses fell in the wilderness.

You never been able to answer any such thing, but have avoided the truth of this scripture and it's context.

The request still remains unanswered... which is:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Please explain how it is we can depart from the living God, in unbelief, yet somehow still be a "believer".

 

[JLB]

Answered sufficiently. Needless to say we see what is going on quite differently.

For the unsaved, for the fallen in doubt believer, we should be seeing this:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are two parties in the above equation. Not one.



I might consider that such a believer has fallen in this present life, by that other working/worker that is NOT THEM. I do not think God in Christ EVER abandons the person, once believed, ever. There are other sights to be had than "just the person." No differently than Satan speaking from Peter's lips. I don't see "just Peter." NOR would I hear the voice of denial as that person, but the voice of the "god of this world" blinding their minds, even speaking through them as Satan spoke through Peter.

God in Christ still loved Peter, regardless, and resisted/rebuked/condemned Satan "in the flesh of Peter" speaking through Peter's lips, SIMULTANEOUSLY.


It's not as simple as your proposition supposes: That there is only one party and one speaker involved, because that is not the scriptural case. No differently than it was with any of us prior to salvation. Here was our state and our status according to how The Spirit saw us:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Again this shows TWO parties. Not just one.

When we are saved, we have been effectively "divided from" that other party. But this does not mean we can not fall victim, again, to it's workings of blindness in this present life, in the flesh. This also doesn't equate that God in Christ "left the believer." God in Christ happens to be working also, adversely, against the other party that is NOT the saved person. That would be the "prince of this world, the god of this world, the spirit of disobedience." That spirit is not the person who is blinded by it. It is the adverse spirit(s) of our adversaries, the devil and his messengers.

There is no two "parties".

There is just the person who either chooses to believe in Christ Jesus to the end of their life, and there is the person who chooses to abandon the faith, in favor of another god.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

 

[smaller]

There is no two "parties".

There is just the person who either chooses to believe in Christ Jesus to the end of their life, and there is the person who chooses to abandon the faith, in favor of another god.

I don't see it that way, as duly and sufficiently noted.

 

[JLB]

For the unsaved, for the fallen in doubt believer, we should be seeing this:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

There are two parties in the above equation. Not one.

These person in this state is lost.

I'm not discussing a lost person.

Please try to focus on the question.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

 

[JLB]

There is just the person who either chooses to believe in Christ Jesus to the end of their life, and there is the person who chooses to abandon the faith, in favor of another god.

I don't see it that way, as duly and sufficiently noted.

So who else is it that makes the decision for the person to believe in Jesus Christ, or not?


JLB

 

[Wrg1405]

Because you attempted to lump Moses together with those who rebelled against God.

Here is you statement:




God was certainly not angry with Moses for 40 years, as Moses was faithful in all of his house.

The scripture also says of Moses:

But since then there has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.
Deuteronomy 34:10

and again

Now the man Moses was very humble, more than all men who were on the face of the earth. Numbers 12:3

and again

And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,
Hebrews 4:5

Moses also wrote the Torah, the first five books of the bible.


Yet you have lumped Moses in with those who God was angry within that generation, so you can attempt to somehow try prove that OSAS is true, by insinuating that because Moses died, he was rebellious like the children of Israel.

Here the scripture points to Moses as being faithful, unlike those whom God was angry with in that generation.


4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”



JLB







You never been able to answer any such thing, but have avoided the truth of this scripture and it's context.

The request still remains unanswered... which is:

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

Please explain how it is we can depart from the living God, in unbelief, yet somehow still be a "believer".

What's your thoughts about those who fell in the wilderness. Will they spend eternity with Christ?

 

[smaller]

These person in this state is lost.

Potentially eternally by your sight. Not so by mine.

I'd still seek to "re-establish" and "restore" any such, and would simultaneously "condemn" the working in their flesh that is not them. Just as I would in "any" form of witnessing of Christ. Witnessing requires two separate postures.

I'm not discussing a lost person.

You only want to see the person fallen. That is not how scripture, the Word, sees them. Scripture sees them again, as CAPTIVES of a CAPTOR.

Our desires should always be "like Christ's." To FREE such captives. To "divide" them from their enemy. That's what Jesus did. That's what "we" who believe are called to do as well.

2 Timothy 2:26
And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Please try to focus on the question.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

See previous. We simply do not see these matters the same. I don't see just the will of the person. I also see the will of our adversary operating in their flesh.

The call remains of Christ remains. We are to seek only one of the parties, the person, to restore them that they may recover themselves from the state of captivity of the will of the devil, and deny the other will, the will of the devil who captured them, and it's working in their flesh, blinding them.

And seek to instill AGAIN, the DIVISION that Christ demands of His servants.

 

[Wrg1405]

These person in this state is lost.

I'm not discussing a lost person.

Please try to focus on the question.

Do you believe that you can renounce Jesus Christ, and convert to Islam by confessing Allah as Lord, and still be saved?

Trying to keep track with you all. My answer to your question is 'No' If one renounces Jesus they renounce God.