Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[donadams]

Word play.
I read of Pentecost. There "baptism" was not with water.
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

What is the fire?

 

[Randy]

What is the fire?

When God came down to the mountain top in the days of Moses He was stated as a consuming fire. When God was described sitting on a throne His lower extremities were masked by what was described as fire. Hebrews states our God is a consuming fire.

God is Spirit.

 

[Randy]

That's what every one does here. But at least I don't invent scripture.

If you think the words were spoken as a metaphor then those words are found in the text.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father but is poured out through the Son. A washing and sanctification by the Spirit of God.
If Jesus states baptized by the Spirit then that's a baptism as HE defined. Not me.
Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

 

[Mungo]

If you think the words were spoken as a metaphor then those words are found in the text.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father but is poured out through the Son. A washing and sanctification by the Spirit of God.
If Jesus states baptized by the Spirit then that's a baptism as HE defined. Not me.
Acts 2
Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

Opinions

 

[Mungo]

Here are the words of Jesus.



for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:5


Nothing invented.

Here is the literal fulfilment of His words.

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4


Just scripture.



JLB

And Jesus never used the term baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That term was invented by the Pentecostal movement at the end of the 19th century.

 

[Randy]

Opinions

Anybody is "free" to read the testimony themselves.

 

[donadams]

When God came down to the mountain top in the days of Moses He was stated as a consuming fire. When God was described sitting on a throne His lower extremities were masked by what was described as fire. Hebrews states our God is a consuming fire.

God is Spirit.

Fire is love of God ez 36:25-27
We receive in baptism

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

At Pentecost what is symbolized by the tongues of fire but the light of truth and the love of God!

 

[donadams]

And Jesus never used the term baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That term was invented by the Pentecostal movement at the end of the 19th century.

In the burned over district with spooks and kooks like Joseph smith and Amy simpleminded McPherson

 

[JLB]

And Jesus never used the term baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That term was invented by the Pentecostal movement at the end of the 19th century.

You are in severe denial.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


Jesus desires for His people to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

• baptized with the Holy Spirit

JLB

 

[Mungo]

You are in severe denial.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5


Jesus desires for His people to be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

• baptized with the Holy Spirit

JLB

No, not in denial.
Just a believer in the truth.
I believe in what I see in scripture not your personal interpretations.

 

[JLB]

Just a believer in the truth.

Good.

Because it looked like you were rejecting the truth of Jesus Christ and clinging to your creeds, catechism and commentary from the Catholic church.

You will receive power to be a witness for Him.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5






JLB

 

[Mungo]

Good.

Because it looked like you were rejecting the truth of Jesus Christ and clinging to your creeds, catechism and commentary from the Catholic church.

You will receive power to be a witness for Him.

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth. Acts 1:8


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5






JLB

You still can't provide the term baptism with the Holy Spirit in scripture.

You are just in denial of that truth.

 

[Randy]

Fire is love of God ez 36:25-27
We receive in baptism

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

At Pentecost what is symbolized by the tongues of fire but the light of truth and the love of God!

There was no importance or anything explained or taught in the testimony in regard to just what the "fire" meant. I can associate the appearance of a Spiritual, not chemical, fire with Gods very Spirit but other than that I don't know with any certainty from God anything else. Maybe it was just a visible witness in itself as the Spirit can't be perceived by the senses of man but I don't know.

 

[Randy]

You still can't provide the term baptism with the Holy Spirit in scripture.

You are just in denial of that truth.

The church can not baptize with the Holy Spirit. They baptize with water. So why would such a decree be given in that regard?
Repentance, faith, obedience in regard to water baptism seem to be noted in receiving the gift of the Spirit from God as He gives through His Son. Jesus is that mediator not the church.

 

[Mungo]

The church can not baptize with the Holy Spirit. They baptize with water. So why would such a decree be given in that regard?
Repentance, faith, obedience in regard to water baptism seem to be noted in receiving the gift of the Spirit from God as He gives through His Son. Jesus is that mediator not the church.

As I keep pointing out - nobody literally baptises with the Holy Spirit. It's a metaphor.

But if you are referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and Acts 10 then what about Acts 8:17-18 and Acts 19:6. Was that not the church acting?

Regarding water baptism, yes we receive the Holy Spirit from God. What is your point?

 

[donadams]

There was no importance or anything explained or taught in the testimony in regard to just what the "fire" meant. I can associate the appearance of a Spiritual, not chemical, fire with Gods very Spirit but other than that I don't know with any certainty from God anything else. Maybe it was just a visible witness in itself as the Spirit can't be perceived by the senses of man but I don't know.

Then why a new heart if not to love with
I know love of God is forbidden in your religion
But not the Christian religion Deut 6:5
Jn 14:15
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord JesusChrist, let him be Anathema

 

[JLB]

You still can't provide the term baptism with the Holy Spirit in scripture.

You are just in denial of that truth.

I have provided many times.

Does your apostles baptize people with the Holy Spirit, like the apostles in the New Testament?

Here is what Peter did —

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?


And Paul —


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:1-6


The pattern is the day of Pentecost when the disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues. This is biblically called receiving the Holy Spirit… just as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.



JLB

 

[Randy]

Then why a new heart if not to love with
I know love of God is forbidden in your religion
But not the Christian religion Deut 6:5
Jn 14:15
1 Corinthians 16:22
If any man love not the Lord JesusChrist, let him be Anathema

Your post is offensive. I love God. Its the greatest commandment. Why would it not be part of my religion?
Again nothing was given in regard to the meaning of "fire" as in baptize with the Holy Spirit and Fire.

 

[Randy]

As I keep pointing out - nobody literally baptises with the Holy Spirit. It's a metaphor.

But if you are referring to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 and Acts 10 then what about Acts 8:17-18 and Acts 19:6. Was that not the church acting?

Regarding water baptism, yes we receive the Holy Spirit from God. What is your point?

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit not the church.

 

[Mungo]

I have provided many times.

Does your apostles baptize people with the Holy Spirit, like the apostles in the New Testament?

Here is what Peter did —

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17


While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?


And Paul —


And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:1-6


The pattern is the day of Pentecost when the disciples were baptized with the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues. This is biblically called receiving the Holy Spirit… just as the disciples did on the day of Pentecost.



JLB

There are three ways Catholics can receive the Holy Spirit in the sense the Holy Spirit fell on those in the exmples you give.
1. A sovereign act of God as at Pentecost and with Cornelius.
2. The laying on of hands by a bishop as happened in Acts 8:17 & Acts 19:6 in the sacrament of Confirmation.
3. The laying on of hands and prayer for the outpouring of the Holy SPirit also happens in Catholic Charismatic Renewal (CCR).