Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[Mungo]

If you choose to twist God’s word and mock His teachings in favor of your particular denomination’s tradition then of course is your choice.


Nevertheless, Jesus paid the price for your and I to receive power to be His witnesses, by being baptized with the Holy Spirit.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8


This gift is also called the promise of the Father.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Just like being baptized with water, being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a very real part of the Christian faith.


I hope you receive this gift from the Lord and are endued with His power to be His witness for your family and community.





JLB

I'm not mocking or twisting God's words.
I'm pointing out to you the errors of your claims - to which I note you have no answer.

Here it is again

I'm following your logic.

Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.
Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.

Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes).

Where is your answer JLB?

 

[Randy]

I'm not mocking or twisting God's words.
I'm pointing out to you the errors of your claims - to which I note you have no answer.

Here it is again

I'm following your logic.

Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.
Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.

Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes).

Where is your answer JLB?

This also took place for them at that time. "Pentecost" So its more than just clothed with power.
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
As I have pointed out "Jesus" tied the Fathers promise to baptized with the Holy Spirit.
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

I doubt you deny JtB's baptizing with water was a baptism. Likewise I don't deny God's baptizing with the washing and sanctification and justification by the Spirit is a baptism as one received by faith and even such faith not of ourselves but by grace from the Father.

 

[Mungo]

This also took place for them at that time. "Pentecost" So its more than just clothed with power.
But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

That's baptism with water - in Jesus name.

As I have pointed out "Jesus" tied the Fathers promise to baptized with the Holy Spirit.
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

As I keep pointing out that is a metaphor, just as being clothed with power is a metaphor.

I doubt you deny JtB's baptizing with water was a baptism. Likewise I don't deny God's baptizing with the washing and sanctification and justification by the Spirit is a baptism as one received by faith and even such faith not of ourselves but by grace from the Father.

God's baptizing with the washing and sanctification and justification by the Spirit is a baptism - with water in Jesus name.

BTW it is polite to give the reference when quoting from scripture.

 

[JLB]

I'm pointing out to you the errors of your claims - to which I note you have no answer.

Brother the truth has answered you many times.

You simply have closed your eyes to the truth.

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit inot a biblical term.

It is a figure of speech - a metaphor
metaphor
n noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable.

The scriptures have proven that your claim that being baptized with the Spirit is a metaphor is blatantly false.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8


This gift is also called the promise of the Father.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Just like being baptized with water, being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a very real part of the Christian faith.


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8




JLB

 

[Mungo]

Brother the truth has answered you many times.

You simply have closed your eyes to the truth.


The scriptures have proven that your claim that being baptized with the Spirit is a metaphor is blatantly false.


But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” Acts 1:8


This gift is also called the promise of the Father.


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.

Just like being baptized with water, being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a very real part of the Christian faith.


I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8




JLB

You have been given the truth many times but just close your eyes to it.

You consistently fail to answer the points I make.

I believe that being "baptised with the Holy Spirit" was not intended to be taken by literally JtB or Jesus.

It is a figure of speech - a metaphor
metaphor
n noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable.

It was used by JtB and Jesus to indicate some new experience, which those addressed had not had before, relating it to something they had experienced (being baptised in water).

You cannot call it being literally baptised and cannot translate it into a noun form.

In Luke 's gospel Jesus used another metaphor to indicate the same (Pentecost) experience to the apostles.
And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high. (Lk 24:49)

They were not literally going to be clothed. And translating that into a noun form - power clothes - make even less sense.

But following your logic.

Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.
Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.
Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes)
Since the clothes clothe us with power they must be power clothes.

Can't you see the falsity of your claims and the nonsense your interpretation leads to?

 

[Randy]

That's baptism with water - in Jesus name.

As I keep pointing out that is a metaphor, just as being clothed with power is a metaphor.



God's baptizing with the washing and sanctification and justification by the Spirit is a baptism - with water in Jesus name.

BTW it is polite to give the reference when quoting from scripture.

JtB's baptism in water wasn't in Jesus's name yet its was a baptism of repentance. And Pentecost wasn't a baptism with water at all. Are you suggesting those at Pentecost were NOT also washed and sanctified and justified by the inward presence of Christ? As has been pointed out in this thread Cornelius and his family received the HS then after were baptized in water. So how is that a water baptism in Christ name in regard to the Spirit? There also was no mention of tongues of flame hovering over each person as in clothed from above. Yet Peter remembered Christs words you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in that out pouring. So he viewed it so. Isn't He your first Pope?

You objection seems to be in defining the pouring out of the Spirit in these last days as a baptism not in what is taking place for in that regard we are stating the same thing. To me stating so is lawful for Christ Himself stated you will be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit and fire. That was a baptism with the Holy Spirit just as JtB's baptized with was a baptism of repentance.

 

[Mungo]

JtB's baptism in water wasn't in Jesus's name yet its was a baptism of repentance.

Of course it wasn't a baptism in Jesus name. Why do you suggest it was?

And Pentecost wasn't a baptism with water at all.

It wasn't a baptism at all.

Are you suggesting those at Pentecost were NOT also washed and sanctified and justified by the inward presence of Christ?

There is no evidence that they were. It was for a different purpose.

As has been pointed out in this thread Cornelius and his family received the HS then after were baptized in water. So how is that a water baptism in Christ name in regard to the Spirit?

There are two different actions of the Holy Spirit. I think I have explained all this before.

There also was no mention of tongues of flame hovering over each person as in clothed from above. Yet Peter remembered Christs words you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit in that out pouring.

So?
What is your point?

So he viewed it so. Isn't He your first Pope?

So?
What is your point?

You objection seems to be in defining the pouring out of the Spirit in these last days as a baptism not in what is taking place for in that regard we are stating the same thing.

Yes, what happened at Pentecost was not a literal baptism.

To me stating so is lawful for Christ Himself stated you will be "baptized" with the Holy Spirit and fire.

As I keep pointing out that was a metaphor.
FACT - sScripture never uses the term baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That was a baptism with the Holy Spirit just as JtB's baptized with was a baptism of repentance.

JtB's baptism is a side issue. It was not baptism in Jesus name.

 

[Randy]

Of course it wasn't a baptism in Jesus name. Why do you suggest it was?

I didn't. I stated it was a baptism as in John baptized with water. Just as God baptized with the Holy Spirit is a baptism.

Its clear to me you object to calling the out pouring of the Spirit in these last days as a baptism of the Spirit.
OK

 

[donadams]

So the prisoner on the cross is not on Paradise?

The thief don’t apply cos the new. Covenant which requires faith and baptism is not in effect.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 & 22 acts 2:38 acts 8:36 Titus 3:5 1pet 3:20-21

Thanks

 

[donadams]

You deny Christ words then. Were you baptized as a infant? If so you better examine yourself to see if Christ is in you for that gift is received by faith. And it was "repent" and be baptized.

The test to see if you are in the "Faith" is Christ in you. How can such a one who is one with Christ and the seed of Abraham not be heirs according to the promise? God is not bound to water baptism in order to give the gift of the Spirit which He does to those who believe and obey Him. "My point"

Is this the church?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

It doesn't matter what you think as this is Jesus's will in regard to those who the Father give to Him. Those who believe in Him.
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

I didn't receive the Spirit when I was baptized as a infant. But later in life when I asked for that gift in prayer as one who believes in Christ Jesus my Lord. I do confess with my mouth Jesus is Lord.

Faith and baptism

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!





Faith and baptism:

16:16 he that believes and is baptized shall be saved
Matt 28:19 faith and baptism
Acts 2:38-39 repent and be baptized (promise of ez 36:25)
Acts 8:36-38 faith and baptism
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism
1 pet 3:21 baptism saves us



Baptism is just a symbol or symbolic not the real Christian sacrament of justification and regeneration!

does a symbol wash away sins? Acts 22:16

Does a symbol make us risen with Christ? col 2:12

Does a symbol baptize us into the church? 1 cor 12:13

Do we put in Christ by a symbol? gal 3:27

Are we brought to life by a symbol? 2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 & 5

Are we symbolically a new creation? 2 cor 5:17

Does a symbol seal us by the Holy Spirit? eph 1:13

what is symbolic water and the spirit?

 

[Paul Timothy]

The thief don’t apply cos the new. Covenant which requires faith and baptism is not in effect.

Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Faith and baptism Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 & 22 acts 2:38 acts 8:36 Titus 3:5 1pet 3:20-21

Thanks

Well isn't that convenient.

 

[donadams]

Well isn't that convenient.

Very much so! Lol!

 

[JLB]

You have been given the truth many times but just close your eyes to it.

You consistently fail to answer the points I make.

I believe that being "baptised with the Holy Spirit" was not intended to be taken by literally JtB or Jesus.

It is a figure of speech - a metaphor
metaphor
n noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable.

It was used by JtB and Jesus to indicate some new experience, which those addressed had not had before, relating it to something they had experienced (being baptised in water).

You cannot call it being literally baptised and cannot translate it into a noun form.

In Luke 's gospel Jesus used another metaphor to indicate the same (Pentecost) experience to the apostles.
And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high. (Lk 24:49)

They were not literally going to be clothed. And translating that into a noun form - power clothes - make even less sense.

But following your logic.

Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.
Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.
Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes)
Since the clothes clothe us with power they must be power clothes.

Can't you see the falsity of your claims and the nonsense your interpretation leads to?

These manifestations of truth are not metaphors ---

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4

• they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,

Being baptized with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not a metaphor.

It's a fulfilled promise from God.


Your catholic tradition makes God's word of promise of no effect for you and many catholics.



JLB

 

[donadams]

Well isn't that convenient.

Now answer mine

Grace requires works to be fruitful!
Jn 15:1-5 matt 21:43

Lk 8 parable of the sower:
All had faith; are all saved?
Do all bear fruit?

Do all win? 1 cor 9:24

Grace is sufficient for thee.
2 cor 12:9

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Not faith alone! James 2:24
Not works alone!
Not works of the law!

Faith and good works!
Faith working thru love!

Good works:

Prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, sacraments, practice of virture!

In union with Christ empowered by His divine grace!

 

[Paul Timothy]

Now answer mine

Grace requires works to be fruitful!
Jn 15:1-5 matt 21:43

Not a question.

Lk 8 parable of the sower:
All had faith; are all saved?
Do all bear fruit?

Faith is not mentioned in that parable as far as I can see.
Well seeing as the parable is about some being saved and fruitful and others not... Some bear fruit and some are saved.
I don't see the point of your question.

Do all win? 1 cor 9:24

Win is not in that verse. You are going beyond the passage in question.
The passage states that one wins the prize.
So nothing about winning.

Grace is sufficient for thee.
2 cor 12:9

Not a question.

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Not a question.

Not faith alone! James 2:24
Not works alone!
Not works of the law!

Faith and good works!
Faith working thru love!

Good works:

Prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, sacraments, practice of virture!

In union with Christ empowered by His divine grace!

Not a question.

Did you have a point?
I did not see many questions... and most questions were not relevant to the discussion.

 

[Mungo]

These manifestations of truth are not metaphors ---

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:1-4

• they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,

Being baptized with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not a metaphor.

It's a fulfilled promise from God.


Your catholic tradition makes God's word of promise of no effect for you and many catholics.



JLB

None of your quotes say that was baptism with the Holy Spirit. That's just your personal interpretation. You seem not to believe what scripture actually says but only what your personal interpretation of it says.

Yes, what happened at Pentecost was real, but Jesus prophecy of it was a metaphor.
metaphor
n noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable.

It was used by JtB and Jesus to indicate some new experience, which those addressed had not had before, relating it to something they had experienced (being baptised in water).

You cannot call it being literally baptised and cannot translate it into a noun form.
In Luke 's gospel Jesus used another metaphor to indicate the same (Pentecost) experience to the apostles.
And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high. (Lk 24:49)
They were not literally going to be clothed. And translating that into a noun form - power clothes - make even less sense.

But following your logic.
Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.
Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.

Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes)
Since the clothes clothe us with power they must be power clothes.

Can't you see the falsity of your claims and the nonsense your interpretation leads to?

 

[JLB]

None of your quotes say that was baptism with the Holy Spirit. That's just your personal interpretation. You seem not to believe what scripture actually says but only what your personal interpretation of it says.

Please stop making up lies about what I post.

I used the term baptized with the Holy Spirit.


These manifestations of truth are not metaphors ---


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

• they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,

Being baptized with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not a metaphor.

It's a fulfilled promise from God.


Your catholic tradition makes God's word of promise of no effect for you and many catholics.





JLB

 

[Mungo]

Please stop making up lies about what I post.

I used the term baptized with the Holy Spirit.

I didn't lie about what you posted.

I said "None of your quotes say that was baptism with the Holy Spirit." That is the truth.

These manifestations of truth are not metaphors ---


And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:4-5

• you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit

When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4

• they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues,

I didn't say that the manifestions were metaphors.
Stop lying about what I said.

The description/prophecy is a metaphor not the actual manifestation.
metaphor
n noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable.

It was used by JtB and Jesus to indicate some new experience, which those addressed had not had before, relating it to something they had experienced (being baptised in water).

You cannot call it being literally baptised and cannot translate it into a noun form.

In Luke 's gospel Jesus used another metaphor to indicate the same (Pentecost) experience to the apostles.
And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high. (Lk 24:49)
They were not literally going to be clothed. And translating that into a noun form - power clothes - make even less sense.


But following your logic.
Luke 24:49
"And behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you; but stay in the city, until you are clothed with power from on high.”
You claimed that the promise of the Father was literal in Act 1:4-5. Therefore you claimed that what followed (baptised with the Holy Spirit) was also literal.

Therefore by the same logic if the promise of the Father in Luke 24:49 is literal then what follows - clothed with power - is also literal.


Also you claimed that you can switch a verb (baptised) to a noun (baptism).
By the same logic the verb in Luke 24:49 (clothed) can be switched to a noun (clothes)
Since the clothes clothe us with power they must be power clothes.

Can't you see the falsity of your claims and the nonsense your interpretation leads to?

Being baptized with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is not a metaphor.

It's a fulfilled promise from God.


Your catholic tradition makes God's word of promise of no effect for you and many catholics.





JLB

As I said the actual manifestaion is not a metaphor.
The description/prophecy is a metaphor not the actual manifestation.