Development of Doctrine

[GodsGrace]

I have been waiting for someone to ask this question! The "truths" that you refer to are mental and/or logical truths. but => they are not spiritual truths <=

In John 14:6, Jesus said "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life." What do you think that he meant by that? Hint: He did not mean doctrine.

This goes right to the heart of what I believe as a Christian, so it should make for an interesting (and friendly!) discussion.

Actually Jaybo, I've asked the same question many times on this very site.

The answer is not as easy as you think it is.
Take, for example, the teaching of eternal security, or some call it OSAS.

Whether or not this is a teaching found on the NT is very important.

Jesus taught that we must be right with God.
Revelation states the impure will not enter heaven.

Charles Stanley plainly states that one could commit any sin and still go to heaven.

This is wrong and may cause some their soul.

 

[jaybo]

Actually Jaybo, I've asked the same question many times on this very site.

The answer is not as easy as you think it is.
Take, for example, the teaching of eternal security, or some call it OSAS.

Whether or not this is a teaching found on the NT is very important.

Jesus taught that we must be right with God.
Revelation states the impure will not enter heaven.

Charles Stanley plainly states that one could commit any sin and still go to heaven.

This is wrong and may cause some their soul.

I agree that the answer is not easy; it is very complex. Take, for example, the teaching of eternal security, or some call it OSAS. That is doctrine, an intellectual point of view. It is not spiritual "knowledge". And that is just one example.

We are called to love one another, yet our faith often devolves into doctrinal arguments. I am as guilty of this as anyone, which is why I am making an effort to not get involved in any more heated arguments.

I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to the "truth" of any denomination, because it results in thinking that "I and the others of my denomination are right and everyone else is wrong". Paul clearly warned about this in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"

I have my own opinions, of course, but as you know, expressing them has gotten me into trouble. I am making a real effort to not debate who is "right" about doctrine and who is "wrong".

 

[Cooper]

If that is your personal opinion, and you have no evidence for it, then it just looks like another conspiracy theory.

The evidence is right there if you compare Catholism with the teaching of Jesus.
.

 

[Cooper]

And how does Jesus teach that truth to people now?

Through the uncorrupted Word of God rather than ordinary mortals.
.

 

[Cooper]

And how does Jesus teach that truth to people now?

By reading His word and rejecting all others.

We need to stay on the narrow path rather than the broad road that leads to destruction, and we can do that by rejecting the teaching of people like Airius.
.

 

[Cooper]

Could you explain the following to me?
They are contradictory statements:


John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

John 14:6
6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

John 6:44
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


Also, I don't know why you're quoting John 14:6 to me...

John 12:32 KJV And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus will draw people of all nations to Him.

John 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Not only does Jesus draw people of all nations to Him, but he gives them eternal life.

John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here Jesus stamped his authority over the Jews by saying in effect, He is the resurrection and the life.
.

 

[Mungo]

The evidence is right there if you compare Catholism with the teaching of Jesus.
.

Through the uncorrupted Word of God rather than ordinary mortals.

By reading His word and rejecting all others.

We need to stay on the narrow path rather than the broad road that leads to destruction, and we can do that by rejecting the teaching of people like Airius.

All these opinions need some evidence otherwise they remain just your personal opinions.

 

[Mungo]

I have been waiting for someone to ask this question! The "truths" that you refer to are mental and/or logical truths. but => they are not spiritual truths <=

In John 14:6, Jesus said "Jesus replied, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life." What do you think that he meant by that? Hint: He did not mean doctrine.

This goes right to the heart of what I believe as a Christian, so it should make for an interesting (and friendly!) discussion.

On the contrary I am referring to doctrinal truths not just mental truths (like 2+2=4).
It is a fact that Christians come to different "truths" on the same doctrinal points. I do not believe the Holy Spirit leads them to contradictory doctrinal truths.

“From the beginning, the fault lines of Protestantism appeared when Zwingli and Oecolampadius (two lesser Reformers) differed with Luther on the Real Presence, and the Anabaptists dissented on the Eucharist, infant Baptism, Ordination, and the function of civil authority…… By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Word, “This is My Body” was published at Ingolstadt, Germany.”
(A Biblical Defence of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong)

That cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 12:32 KJV And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Jesus will draw people of all nations to Him.

John 14:6 KJV Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Not only does Jesus draw people of all nations to Him, but he gives them eternal life.

John 6:44 KJV No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Here Jesus stamped his authority over the Jews by saying in effect, He is the resurrection and the life.
.

Cooper:
I know what the verses mean.
They're written in English.

I asked you the following:
1. Could you exegete them since they are contradictory and the NT does not contradict itself.

2. Why did you post John to me anyway?
You posted a verse with no explanation as to why. (John 14:6)

 

[GodsGrace]

By reading His word and rejecting all others.

We need to stay on the narrow path rather than the broad road that leads to destruction, and we can do that by rejecting the teaching of people like Airius.
.

What about those that do not read God's Word?
Can they be saved?

How do you know Arius was wrong?

 

[Cooper]

Cooper:
I know what the verses mean.
They're written in English.

I asked you the following:
1. Could you exegete them since they are contradictory and the NT does not contradict itself.

2. Why did you post John to me anyway?
You posted a verse with no explanation as to why.

The verses you posted, along with many more, tell of Christ's significant role in the salvation of mankind.

The verse I posted, which you also posted, was by way of introduction.
.

 

[Cooper]

What about those that do not read God's Word?
Can they be saved?

How do you know Arius was wrong?

On judgement day, Jesus will say to those who never helped their neighbour, depart from me, for I never knew you. Those who did help their neighbour will enter in. (Not to be confused with salvation by works for those who can read the Bible.)

Yes, salvation is for all, and those who cannot read stand a better chance than those who can read and are swayed by the writings of false teachers.

Arius, opposed the Saviour of the world.
.

 

[jaybo]

On the contrary I am referring to doctrinal truths not just mental truths (like 2+2=4).
It is a fact that Christians come to different "truths" on the same doctrinal points. I do not believe the Holy Spirit leads them to contradictory doctrinal truths.

“From the beginning, the fault lines of Protestantism appeared when Zwingli and Oecolampadius (two lesser Reformers) differed with Luther on the Real Presence, and the Anabaptists dissented on the Eucharist, infant Baptism, Ordination, and the function of civil authority…… By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Word, “This is My Body” was published at Ingolstadt, Germany.”
(A Biblical Defence of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong)

That cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 1:12-13, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,”[b] or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"

Everyone likes to say "I am right" or "my denomination is right" and "every other denomination is wrong". Each denomination believes that what they put forth is the truth and that what others teach is false.

There is one truth, and that is Jesus Christ. There is no other spiritual truth.

 

[Mungo]

1 Corinthians 1:12-13, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,”[b] or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"

Everyone likes to say "I am right" or "my denomination is right" and "every other denomination is wrong". Each denomination believes that what they put forth is the truth and that what others teach is false.

Can I remind you that you said:

I am a Protestant, am a part of Christ's body, and have received the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have the truth within me. I do not need "an authority" to declare the truth that I already have.

Does it not matter what we believe?
Does it not matter how we act?

Are you really claiming that all Churches teach some errors?
Jesus founded one Church (Mt 16:18). He founded it on the Apostles (Eph 2:20) and it is described as the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). Does that one Church that Jesus founded and was the pillar and foundation of truth no longer exist?

There is one truth, and that is Jesus Christ. There is no other spiritual truth.

Jesus spent 3 years teaching the apostle, the leaders of the Church he founded, the truths of belief and action.
He commanded them to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (Mt 28:19-20)

And did he break his promise to be with them always to the close of the age.?

 

[jaybo]

On the contrary I am referring to doctrinal truths not just mental truths (like 2+2=4).
It is a fact that Christians come to different "truths" on the same doctrinal points. I do not believe the Holy Spirit leads them to contradictory doctrinal truths.

“From the beginning, the fault lines of Protestantism appeared when Zwingli and Oecolampadius (two lesser Reformers) differed with Luther on the Real Presence, and the Anabaptists dissented on the Eucharist, infant Baptism, Ordination, and the function of civil authority…… By 1577, the book 200 Interpretations of the Word, “This is My Body” was published at Ingolstadt, Germany.”
(A Biblical Defence of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong)

That cannot be the work of the Holy Spirit.

You still don't understand. Doctrinal truths are made by fallible men, and the reason that the body of Christ -- the church -- has become so fragmented. One denomination believes one thing and claims it is the truth. A different denomination believes a different thing and claims it is the truth.

Again, "Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life." John 14:6a He didn't say that my doctrine is the truth. He said "I am the truth".

Another verse, John 4:23, says "But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him."

And John 18:37 says, "Pilate asked him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into this world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

These verses clearly do not refer to doctrinal truth or mental truth (whatever that is). So what do you think the truth mean in these verses?

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree that the answer is not easy; it is very complex. Take, for example, the teaching of eternal security, or some call it OSAS. That is doctrine, an intellectual point of view. It is not spiritual "knowledge". And that is just one example.

We are called to love one another, yet our faith often devolves into doctrinal arguments. I am as guilty of this as anyone, which is why I am making an effort to not get involved in any more heated arguments.

I am non-denominational. I do not subscribe to the "truth" of any denomination, because it results in thinking that "I and the others of my denomination are right and everyone else is wrong". Paul clearly warned about this in 1 Corinthians 1:12-13, "Now I mean this, that each of you is saying, “I am with Paul,” or “I am with Apollos,” or “I am with Cephas,” or “I am with Christ.” Is Christ divided? Paul wasn’t crucified for you, was he? Or were you in fact baptized in the name of Paul?"

I have my own opinions, of course, but as you know, expressing them has gotten me into trouble. I am making a real effort to not debate who is "right" about doctrine and who is "wrong".

OK.
Here's the problem though...
If 2 persons are having a debate, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Of course a person debating should not SAY You're wrong,,,but prove it instead.

And, at the end of the day, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Here's my question:
Regarding OSAS,
How do we know who is right if both persons have scripture to support their view?

Think about this.

 

[Cooper]

OK.
Here's the problem though...
If 2 persons are having a debate, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Of course a person debating should not SAY You're wrong,,,but prove it instead.

And, at the end of the day, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Here's my question:
Regarding OSAS,
How do we know who is right if both persons have scripture to support their view?

Think about this.

We are secure in the arms of Jesus, provided we remain faithful.
It is all about context. People need to stop cherry-picking.

By the way, are you person I know as Aunty Jane?

 

[Mungo]

You still don't understand. Doctrinal truths are made by fallible men, and the reason that the body of Christ -- the church -- has become so fragmented. One denomination believes one thing and claims it is the truth. A different denomination believes a different thing and claims it is the truth.

Again, "Jesus said to him, “I am the way and the truth and the life." John 14:6a He didn't say that my doctrine is the truth. He said "I am the truth".

Another verse, John 4:23, says "But the hour is coming and is now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him."

And John 18:37 says, "Pilate asked him, “So you are a king?” Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. For this I was born, and for this I came into this world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice.”

These verses clearly do not refer to doctrinal truth or mental truth (whatever that is). So what do you think the truth mean in these verses?

I await your response to post #274 which relates to this.

 

[Mungo]

jaybo
Whilst I await your response to post #274 I have a couple of other points.

Point 1
You quote John as quoting Jesus saying “I am the way, and the truth, and the life."
You claim, or at least imply, that this is a spiritual; truth not a doctrinal one.
But Jesus didn't say "I and the way, and the spiritual truth, and the life".

Claiming Jesus meant spiritual truth is a doctrine and you say doctrinal truths are made by fallible men. So your doctrine could be wrong by your own admission.

Point 2
You quote John wring that Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life.".
How do you know that Jesus actually said that?
How do you know that John actually wrote that?
How do you know who this John was that allegedly wrote this?

 

[jaybo]

OK.
Here's the problem though...
If 2 persons are having a debate, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Of course a person debating should not SAY You're wrong,,,but prove it instead.

And, at the end of the day, one will be right and one will be wrong.

Here's my question:
Regarding OSAS,
How do we know who is right if both persons have scripture to support their view?

Think about this.

I disagree with the statement that If 2 persons are having a debate, one will be right and one will be wrong. It depends on the subject and if there is a clear answer. If my wife and I are having soup and she says that it's too hot and I say it isn't, which one of us is right? There is not always a clear, yes/no answer to many things.

Again, there are many things in Scripture that don't always have a clear yes/no answer. For example, regarding OSAS, what does "saved" mean in this case?