Did God Cause the Fall?

[Benoni]

You tell me why I should believe your opionion based on bias and not God's word; you spin, and write long boring statements and quote not one verse to back up why you believe it.

You have never proved it was Adam who caused the fall using God's Word; but the two verse I quoted you spun then any way you could.

You have never given me any proof that Satan was a angel; seeing God's Word not your opinion declares God created Satan as a liar or a murderer.

That is just two areas that yous spin.

I try not to read your post they are always based on your opinon; I do not care to read your opinion.

Ah...there we go.
Ya see this folks ? He's arguing with himself because apparently he's not actually READING my arguments and the scriptures I post ;)

I ask to show me using God's word but your far better at rejecting God's Word then quoting it.

How would you know what Im posting since you JUST SAID you dont read my posts ? ;)

Here's the difference between you and I.
I BELIEVE what Im saying, so reading your posts is no threat to my views.
You, on the other hand, seem to be threatened by what Ive presented and thus have chosen to close your eyes and plug your ears.

I think you and I are done here. Please find a way to not respond to any more of my posts.

[quote:12abmrxb]The Root of the Righteous
CHAPTER 7
On Receiving Admonition

3. When reproved, pay no attention to the source. Do not ask whether it is a friend or an enemy that reproves you. An enemy is often of greater value to you than a friend because he is not influenced by sympathy.

.[/quote:12abmrxb]

 

[follower of Christ]

Huh...

I try not to read your post

I do read your post;

CAnt even make your mind up on this one either, eh ?

but I try to avoid the ones with your opinion if that is all you have to post; like I said you reject all scripture that does not fit your old warn out wine skin.

Then dont bother complaining about my view if you dont take the time to read and understand it.

This has happened over and over in our debate; God’s Word does not speak to you because your opinion is your god; if the verse I quote is contrary to your bias you reject it with no merit.

Sorry but Ive given scripture, and CLEAR scripture at that, over and again in this thread.

If Jesus quoted you a scripture that was contrary to your opinion you tell him he is wrong too.

Oh please.
Stick to the topic...

You are very closed minded when it comes to God’s Word;

Absolutely.
I'd say Im the most closed minded person Ive ever met.
And I spend about 1800+ hours a year in study of His word...so I know what it says and what it teaches overall so false ones such as yourself have little chance of duping me with various winds of doctrine.

Now, get back to the topic, please.



.

 

[follower of Christ]

You tell me why I should believe your opionion based on bias and not God's word; you spin, and write long boring statements and quote not one verse to back up why you believe it.

Firstly I HAVE posted scripture.
READERS...do ya see this lying claim again here with this gent ?
Is he on planet earth or what ?
Go back thru this thread and see if even in the last 10 posts if Ive quoted any scripture.

Benoni...youre making yourself look foolish here, brother. Im saying this in the mildest manner possible and out of concern. Your continually claiming that Ive not supported myself with scripture is making you look bad...or worse.
My intent here is to simply expose your error...it isnt to make you look like a fool. So take a hint and stop making statements that do as much.

You have never proved it was Adam who caused the fall using God's Word;

Adam Sinned. God punished Adam for sinning by tossing him out of the garden and direct fellowship and gave a sentence of death to Adam.
Huh...seems to be 'nuff said...but who knows with your absurd logic. Maybe 'Goddidit' ?
READERS SEE >>>Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"

but the two verse I quoted you spun then any way you could.

The verses you gave said NOTHING about man being subjected PRIOR to the fall....weve covered this ad nauseum.

You have never given me any proof that Satan was a angel;

What I did give you is what we have...that Jesus said satan was cast down from heaven as lightning.
And all you do is reject anything offered to you anyway, so whats the point in even trying to present anything ?

seeing God's Word not your opinion declares God created Satan as a liar or a murderer.

Wrong.
Scripture does not say that he was CREATED AS these things. That is your addition to the texts...as per usual.

 

[follower of Christ]

I'll leave you two to further work out the details via PM, yes?

you certainly do not expect that, even if I were to agree to anything, that benoni would even remotely consider restraining himself here ?

How about this.
Lets keep things just as they are minus the personal attacks.
Sounds perfect to me.

follower of Christ, I appreciate your logical postings very much. Thank you for exposing all of the convoluted messages some are trying to present here.

.

Sorry, I just saw this.
Youre very welcome, Relic.
I wish this discussion with with someone other than these two.

 

[Benoni]

You say I am lying... Where is your verse in scripture? Please expose my error with God's Word not your assuption/bias and religious unscriptural opinion.

More opinion, more assumption; you totally deny the scripture posted and replace it with your assumption.

Not one verse was posted here in reference to Adam making a choice to sin on his will which you believe but is not in God’s Word.

You finally agree God draws people but you spin it say man still has a choice; where do you get this non scriptural view; the word draw/drag has nothing to do with choice. Have you ever been drawn or dragged then you would know your being force to do something you choose not to do; I even posted examples in scriptures where Peter drew his net; this word has nothing to do with choice.

You believe on the doctrines of freewill and choice; based on what/what scripture? God’s Word is secondary to your opinion.

I posted to you Romans 8:20 and Ps 90; do you give me one verse that counters what these verse declare, no you assume, you spin and you reject. If you have a strong argument against these verses besides your assumption and rejecting then post the verse with the strong argument not your opinion

This might be ok in your little religious social group but it does not cut the mustard here; your rejecting, assumption and bias are but wood hay and stubble against the Word of God you so often reject because you do not like what the verse declares.

We agree... "Adam Sinned. God punished Adam for sinning by tossing him out of the garden and direct fellowship and gave a sentence of death to Adam" we agree.

What we no not agree on is Adam's choice of that willfo disobiedience. Romans 8:20 and Ps 90 declares "But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it" as well as . "You (God) turn man to destruction".

This is the issue not Adam being disobient which we both agree on. You blame Adam; God blames himself in these verse. So if you blaime Adam because you believe Adam had a freewill or choice show me in God's Word where Adam had a choice and stop rejecting God's Word because you do not believe what God's Word declares.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

You tell me why I should believe your opionion based on bias and not God's word; you spin, and write long boring statements and quote not one verse to back up why you believe it.

Firstly I HAVE posted scripture.
READERS...do ya see this lying claim again here with this gent ?
Is he on planet earth or what ?
Go back thru this thread and see if even in the last 10 posts if Ive quoted any scripture.

Benoni...youre making yourself look foolish here, brother. Im saying this in the mildest manner possible and out of concern. Your continually claiming that Ive not supported myself with scripture is making you look bad...or worse.
My intent here is to simply expose your error...it isnt to make you look like a fool. So take a hint and stop making statements that do as much.

You have never proved it was Adam who caused the fall using God's Word;

Adam Sinned. God punished Adam for sinning by tossing him out of the garden and direct fellowship and gave a sentence of death to Adam.
Huh...seems to be 'nuff said...but who knows with your absurd logic. Maybe 'Goddidit' ?
READERS SEE >>>Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"

[quote:gcitur0o]but the two verse I quoted you spun then any way you could.

The verses you gave said NOTHING about man being subjected PRIOR to the fall....weve covered this ad nauseum.

You have never given me any proof that Satan was a angel;

What I did give you is what we have...that Jesus said satan was cast down from heaven as lightning.
And all you do is reject anything offered to you anyway, so whats the point in even trying to present anything ?

seeing God's Word not your opinion declares God created Satan as a liar or a murderer.

Wrong.
Scripture does not say that he was CREATED AS these things. That is your addition to the texts...as per usual.[/quote:gcitur0o]

 

[Benoni]

Like I said the day you back your opinion with God's Word is the day I read your post.

Huh...

I try not to read your post

I do read your post;

CAnt even make your mind up on this one either, eh ?

but I try to avoid the ones with your opinion if that is all you have to post; like I said you reject all scripture that does not fit your old warn out wine skin.

Then dont bother complaining about my view if you dont take the time to read and understand it.
[quote:2qhd9mwk]
This has happened over and over in our debate; God’s Word does not speak to you because your opinion is your god; if the verse I quote is contrary to your bias you reject it with no merit.

Sorry but Ive given scripture, and CLEAR scripture at that, over and again in this thread.

If Jesus quoted you a scripture that was contrary to your opinion you tell him he is wrong too.

Oh please.
Stick to the topic...

You are very closed minded when it comes to God’s Word;

Absolutely.
I'd say Im the most closed minded person Ive ever met.
And I spend about 1800+ hours a year in study of His word...so I know what it says and what it teaches overall so false ones such as yourself have little chance of duping me with various winds of doctrine.

Now, get back to the topic, please.



.[/quote:2qhd9mwk]

 

[mondar]

A dead man cannot hear, see, touch, feel, etc. That is especially true of a spiritual dead man.

How can this be true. As I sit in this office eating my lunch, I am surrounded by unbelievers - people who are spiritually dead. And yet they clearly "hear, see, touch, and feel".



1. We agree that all men are born into slavery to sin...

Those are mere words, you have a much weaker concept of "slavery."

 

[follower of Christ]

You say I am lying... Where is your verse in scripture? Please expose my error with God's Word not your assuption/bias and religious unscriptural opinion.

Youre beginning to become a joke, friend.
READ my posts. Im not going to keep REposting it all for your amusement.

More opinion, more assumption; you totally deny the scripture posted and replace it with your assumption.

I deny YOUR perversion of scripture.

Not one verse was posted here in reference to Adam making a choice to sin on his will which you believe but is not in God’s Word.

Sorry but Genesis shows that ADAM ate the fruit his wife gave him. If some are too blind or illiterate to read and see that, it isnt my problem. Open a bible for a change.

You finally agree God draws people

Dude, its CLEAR you HAVENT read a single thing here.
I have ALWAYS known, since 1985 when I FIRST started serious bible study, that God DRAWING is required.
PLEASE dont make yourself look even more foolish by pretending that anything in this pathetic joke of a thread has just caused me to start believing that point.

but you spin it say man still has a choice;

Drawing does NOT mean that man doesnt have a choice.
I already gave CLEAR scriptures that show that man CAN reject God....and YOUR claim was that that was for believers...ie even a believer can reject Him of their own free will.

where do you get this non scriptural view;

From scripture that I just posted within the last two pages that apparently your selective vision overlooked.

the word draw/drag has nothing to do with choice.

Wrong. Youre simply playing games with the definition of this word while ignoring the REST of the evidence that proves that man CAN reject God that I just recently posted...

Have you ever been drawn or dragged then you would know your being force to do something you choose not to do; I even posted examples in scriptures where Peter drew his net; this word has nothing to do with choice.

Irrelevant. Drawing into a net and drawing men are not the same thing...and its pathetic that you believe it is.

You believe on the doctrines of freewill and choice; based on what/what scripture? God’s Word is secondary to your opinion.

Based on what Ive already presented that you DID see and responded to, but apparently your short term memory has already forgotten.

I posted to you Romans 8:20

Which DOESNT say what you claim in the greek, nor in any other translation I can find other than your distorted one.

and Ps 90;

Which says NOTHING about any state PRIOR to Adams choice to commit sin.

do you give me one verse that counters what these verse declare, no you assume, you spin and you reject. If you have a strong argument against these verses besides your assumption and rejecting then post the verse with the strong argument not your opinion

Ive given you scripture...you just cant seem to read or something.

This might be ok in your little religious social group but it does not cut the mustard here; your rejecting, assumption and bias are but wood hay and stubble against the Word of God you so often reject because you do not like what the verse declares.

Please...get off your high horse. Your fallacy has been destroyed here, friend...whether you admit it or not.
And keep your mouth off of any of my friends and brothers in Christ or I start reporting you,....is that unclear ?

We agree... "Adam Sinned. God punished Adam for sinning by tossing him out of the garden and direct fellowship and gave a sentence of death to Adam" we agree.

ie...ADAMS SIN CAUSED THE FALL !

What we no not agree on is Adam's choice of that willfo disobiedience.

Yes...we ALL know this now...please find some new line because this is getting redundant.

Romans 8:20 and Ps 90 declares "But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it" as well as . "You (God) turn man to destruction".

The SUBJECTION was not its choice...the RESULT of Adam CHOICE to commit sin. The ACT of sinning WAS Adams choice.
It really goes over your head that instruction PRESUMES the freedom TO obey or disobey, doesnt it ?

This is the issue not Adam being disobient which we both agree on. You blame Adam; God blames himself in these verse. So if you blaime Adam because you believe Adam had a freewill or choice show me in God's Word where Adam had a choice and stop rejecting God's Word because you do not believe what God's Word declares.

Wrong.
Those verses say NOTHING about God causing Adam to sin and thus fall...YOU insert the idea.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his children have

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Neither of which make a single claim about Adam PRIOR to the fall...

 

[follower of Christ]

READERS.
here AGAIN I will post the scriptures again that benoni seems to be purposefully overlooking.

DOES man have the CHOICE to REJECT God ?
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this article
Simply to show that scripture does support the idea that man does have free will to reject God both before and after having come under this covenant.

Supporting Evidence

See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, having refused Him who warned them, how much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who warns from heaven; whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."
(Heb 12:25-26)

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by those who heard Him;
(Heb 2:3 MKJV)

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2 Peter 2:21

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Heb 10:26-39 KJV)

The statement "we are not of them who draw back unto perdition" is entirely absurd *IF* 'them' had not actually 'draw back' to perdition.
And the writers EXHORTATION TO these believing Hebrews is VOID of ANY and ALL meaning in REFERRING to these who had 'DRAWN BACK' in his warning to these believers *IF* they could not do the very same thing.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame . For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
(Heb 6:4-9 KJV)

Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
(Heb 3:1-19 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

And some more...

Mans choice to sin

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them.
Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it? Or are you ignorant that all who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, so also we should walk in newness of life.

For if we have been joined together in the likeness of His death, so also shall we be in the resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be nullified,so that we no longer serve sin. For the one that died has been justified from sin.

But if we died with Christ, we believe that also we shall live with Him, knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dies no more; death no longer lords it over Him. For in that He died, He died to sin once for all; but in that He lives, He lives to God. So also you count yourselves to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then do not let sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its lusts.
Neither present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as one living from the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God. For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under Law, but under grace? Let it not be!

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves to whom you obey, whether of sin to death, or obedience to righteousness?

But thanks be to God that you were slaves of sin, but you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
And having been set free from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.
I speak as a man on account of the weakness of your flesh. For as you presented your members as slaves to uncleanness and to lawless act unto lawless act, so now yield your members as slaves to righteousness unto sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free as to righteousness.

Therefore what fruit did you have then in the things over which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now having been set free from sin, and having been enslaved to God, you have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Rom 6:1-23 LITV)

 

[follower of Christ]

And more...


Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.

 

[follower of Christ]

Like I said the day you back your opinion with God's Word is the day I read your post.

And We're all waiting to see what your definition of 'back' is, friend, because Ive posted scriptural support DOZENS of times at this point ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

Now when benoni again claims Ive not supported myself with scripture, these are links to the more recent posts where i give the scriptural support yet again...

READERS SEE >>> Scriptural support provided by FoC:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=476086#p476086
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475969
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475970

 

[Benoni]

I do not care about your religious scholars of scripture and of Greek; what a perfect example of the Catholic Pope (no disresect to the Catholics) who is also a religious scholars of scripture. All this means is your religious scholars of scripture are bias and cannot look at a verse to mean what it means because like you their god is this creeds and dogma.

How many times to you dismis a verse why; because you follow religious scholars of scripture not God's Word.

No where in the Bible dose it say we are suppose to follow, carnal religious scholars of scripture. There is only one source of truth in God's Spiritual Word and that is God's Spirit of truth; that religious scholars of scripture also reject because they have their human, logical brain and religion just like the Jews and just like the Pope.

This is why there are so many religions, religious men follow bias religious scholars of scripture. What was the first religious act in the garden of Eden; the fig leaf. That is when man/Adam covered himself with something other then God's glory.

God's Word is divine and either you follow the way God's Word shows you, or you follow man and His religions.


John 16: 12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Notice the only true source to lead and guide you into all truth. Nothing mention about religion here…

And more...


Romans 8:20 - A judgment on sinful man
Wm Tipton

Assertions/Conclusions of this Article
To show that this subjection of futility is an EFFECT, not a CAUSE, of mans condition and choice to sin.

Supporting Evidence

Romans 8:20 is one of those passages that there is a lot of disagreement upon by those who ARE scholars of scripture and of Greek.
It is absolutely not a good idea to found a whole doctrine upon in order to put the blame of OUR choice to sin on God.

I spent some time looking at it again and the disagreement of scholars is amazing...if men who DO know Greek and spend their whole lives studying Gods word cannot agree on what this tiny verse means exactly (there seems to be some disagreement on how the greek is to even be rendered into english exactly), then its is VERY dangerous to ignore verses like this one;

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

..that CLEARLY says that GOD is not responsible for OUR sin.

To run to a verse that may not even actually SAY what one wants it to say and then reject something that has NO other intent to but to purposefully convey ONE intent that GOD ISNT making us sin, is fairly dangerous, in my opinion.

As far as I have seen and understood it Romans 8:20 is a SENTENCE upon man...entirely against mans will he was subjected to this sentence that came about because of his DECISION to sin against God.

When man sinned against God did man, of his OWN WILL, WANT to be subjected to this 'futility' ?
That would make us insane as well as sinners.
There is NOTHING in Romans 8:20 that nullifies James 1:13-15, Im afraid. And it is a foolhardy venture to try to make that the case.

Romans 8:20 DOESNT say God makes men sin and is fairly uncertain as to its EXACT intent....James 1:13-15 CLEARLY presents that God does NOT do so.


Here are some words of men who know the greek language, since I dont (and I doubt others here do either).

[quote:3qm06k2p] Rom 8:20
Was subjected (hupetagē). Second aorist passive indicative of hupatassŠ(cf. Rom_8:7).
To vanity (tēi mataiotēti). Dative case. Rare and late word, common in lxx. From mataios, empty, vain. Eph_4:17; 2Pe_2:18.
Not of its own will (ouch hekousa). Common adjective, in N.T. only here and 1Co_9:27. It was due to the effect of man’s sin.
But by reason of him (alla dia ton). Because of God.
In hope that (Ephesians' helpidi hoti). Note the form helpidi rather than the usual elpidi and so Ephesians'. Hoti can be causal “because†instead of declarative “that.â€Â\
Vincent WORD studies

2.0
Cause and effect.

WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:3qm06k2p]

 

[follower of Christ]

I do not care about your religious scholars of scripture and of Greek;

And we certainly do not care about your views any more than you do theirs.

READERS take note of this point (yet again).
Benoni says he doesnt care about our religious scholars...but ask benoni who brought him the bible he uses into the language he can understand...English ?
Can we suppose that benoni has a bible that just fell from the sky one day ?


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[Benoni]

Who cares they were always shallow and bias full of spin. Post the verses again if your arguement has any real substance. You have never shown any substance. You should change your name to spin.

Now when benoni again claims Ive not supported myself with scripture, these are links to the more recent posts where i give the scriptural support yet again...

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475969
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475970

 

[Benoni]

More spin

I do not care about your religious scholars of scripture and of Greek;

And we certainly do not care about your views any more than you do theirs.

READERS take note of this point (yet again).
Benoni says he doesnt care about our religious scholars...but ask benoni who brought him the bible he uses into the language he can understand...English ?
Can we suppose that benoni has a bible that just fell from the sky one day ?


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[follower of Christ]

How many times to you dismis a verse why; because you follow religious scholars of scripture not God's Word.

Sorry friend, I dont dismiss the verses you present, I dismiss YOUR distortion of what they SAY.

No where in the Bible dose it say we are suppose to follow, carnal religious scholars of scripture.

Please
Dont embarass yourself.
You USE a bible provided to you BY our scholars of whatever sort.
Its pretty funny to hear you rail against them all while USING the product of their work

There is only one source of truth in God's Spiritual Word and that is God's Spirit of truth; that religious scholars of scripture also reject because they have their human, logical brain and religion just like the Jews and just like the Pope.

You mean like whomever translated that perverse version you are using that no other version I can find even remotely resembles in Romans 8:20 ?

-run on irrelevance snipped-

Please get back to the topic...


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[follower of Christ]

Who cares they were always shallow and bias full of spin. Post the verses again if your arguement has any real substance. You have never shown any substance. You should change your name to spin.

READERS SEE >>> Scriptural support provided by FoC:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=476086#p476086
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475969
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475970

Where is that big 'rollseyes' smiley when ya need it ?

Can ya get back on topic ?


.

 

[follower of Christ]

More spin

I do not care about your religious scholars of scripture and of Greek;

And we certainly do not care about your views any more than you do theirs.

READERS take note of this point (yet again).
Benoni says he doesnt care about our religious scholars...but ask benoni who brought him the bible he uses into the language he can understand...English ?
Can we suppose that benoni has a bible that just fell from the sky one day ?


.

Call it what you will, but rest assured that the thinking READER here is certainly going to have to wonder about your reasoning and ability because of these sorts of details....

READERS SEE >>> Scriptural support provided by FoC:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=476086#p476086
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475968
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475969
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39238&p=475968#p475970

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