Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

Romans 11:32ff:
“For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay him?"[k]
36For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.â€Â

Follower...,
Romans 11 speaks to God sovereignly giving the ethnic Jew a “spirit of stupor†, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, that the Gentiles would be grafted in. Each of us Jew and Gentile alike are dead in our sins, until the Spirit of God illuminates us and causes us to see and hear the saving message of Christ (Eph. 2:1-7). The interesting aspect of the end of Romans chapter 11 is, all of us until regeneration are men “bound in disobedienceâ€Â, just like Adam was predestined to fall, and thus our fallen state as his children in every age since. Yet, in God’s timing we have “that He may have mercy on them onâ€Â. That is a loving Father speaking.
Bubba

Wonderful.
I see nothing here that changes the FACT that Romans 9 is speaking about the Nation of Israel and what has happened to her.

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises....

....Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel...

....Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Romans 9)

 

[Aurora]

God is a God of Love, he desired to be loved, from a free choice, so he created us with a free choice.
WE chose to listen to Satan, and disobeyed God, so now we suffer the consequences of that choice.

Yes, in his foreknowledge he knew we would, and had the plan already on the board, so to speak, but it was our choice, our responsibility.
In Gods love for us, he made a way of escape, like he always does.
He went to the cross, and bore the penalty of our sin, so we could go free.
All we have to do, is believe, and follow him. Putting our ear to the post in total love, and trust. :amen ?

For me, and my house it is an :amen !!!

 

[Orion]

Yes.

 

[Bubba]

Follower...,
Who are "the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy" in the beginning of Romans 11? Is God's sovereign chioce now towards the Gentiles for an age? After reading Romans 11, does Romans 9:24 take on a new meaning in regards to "not only the Jews, but also the gentiles", to you?
Bubba

Im not about to be led down some rabbit trail to your ill concieved predestination nonsense.
Romans 9, as I have shown already, is ABOUT what has transpired with Israel.
That it mentions the gentiles DOESNT negate that fact.

Nor does the fact that Romans 11 speaks to God sovereignly giving Israel a "spirit of stupor", thus with all mankind until regeneration they are "bound in disobedience" as was Adam in the "Fall"
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower...,
Who are "the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy" in the beginning of Romans 11? Is God's sovereign chioce now towards the Gentiles for an age? After reading Romans 11, does Romans 9:24 take on a new meaning in regards to "not only the Jews, but also the gentiles", to you?
Bubba

Im not about to be led down some rabbit trail to your ill concieved predestination nonsense.
Romans 9, as I have shown already, is ABOUT what has transpired with Israel.
That it mentions the gentiles DOESNT negate that fact.

Nor does the fact that Romans 11 speaks to God sovereignly giving Israel a "spirit of stupor", thus with all mankind until regeneration they are "bound in disobedience" as was Adam in the "Fall"
Bubba

Romans 9 ISNT about INDIVIDUAL predestination...regardless of how much you folks need it to be. Its about Israel. It has NOTHING to do with Adam supposedly being 'subjected' to corrupting by GOD prior to Adams DECISION to sin.

you folks havent supported a single absurd statement youve presented thus far....and this thread seems to have run its miserable course...so when y'all find something new and meaningful....ie RELEVANT....to present, give me a jingle.
Till then Im going to find other, more interesting discussions to get involved with....

 

[follower of Christ]

God is a God of Love, he desired to be loved, from a free choice, so he created us with a free choice.

it doesnt get any simpler that that.
God wanted a being who could CHOOSE to seek Him out and love him of its own free will.
Who wouldnt want that kind of love ?

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
Would you agree that God is all knowing (omniscient) or are you one of these individuals that believe God does not know the future (like Open Theist). If you are a person that believes God knows the future, did He not know that Adam and Eve would fail? Was not the creature Satan much more cunning, intelligent and powerful then these humans? Is this not due to God’s creative hand from the very beginning? Was not Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth (prior to the Fall).
What does it mean to you that God placed a “spirit of stupor†on Israel and what does it mean that God bound all of mankind in disobedience that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11). You like to make “blanket statements†of the sort that individuals like me are playing some type of spin game with Scripture, when in reality we are being honest with the text. Why are these translations of “damnationâ€Â, “eternalâ€Â, “forever†and etc, not examined and considered in respect to our modern translations when just about any literal Greek, Hebrew says something different?
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
Would you agree that God is all knowing (omniscient) or are you one of these individuals that believe God does not know the future (like Open Theist). If you are a person that believes God knows the future, did He not know that Adam and Eve would fail?

Its a VERY narrow mind that believes that foreknowing = ordaining.
God can foreknow something will happen and be prepared for it without controlling it.

Was not the creature Satan much more cunning, intelligent and powerful then these humans? Is this not due to God’s creative hand from the very beginning? Was not Jesus the Lamb slain from the foundation of the earth (prior to the Fall).

God foreknew what would happen and laid out a plan for mans fall.
That DOESNT mean that GOD subjected man and creation TO 'corruption' BEFORE Adam chose to sin.
You folks have yet to prove any such concept from scripture.

What does it mean to you that God placed a “spirit of stupor†on Israel and what does it mean that God bound all of mankind in disobedience that He might have mercy on all (Romans 11).

Subjected AFTER mans fall, not before.

You like to make “blanket statements†of the sort that individuals like me are playing some type of spin game with Scripture,

You folks and that spin nonsense. Get a new line, please.
Im starting to think that bubba and benoni are one and the same person.

You all are the ones putting a spin on Romans 8:20...it says NOTHING about this subjection taking place BEFORE Adam fell.
And it is impossible that creation was GOOD and CORRUPT at the SAME TIME
Which is precisely where your error falls apart.


here it is again.
Maybe someone will READ it this time around

Cause and effect.
WHEN God CREATED He called creation GOOD....not 'corrupt'.
[quote:2oilg0dp]Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...

For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..

.[/quote:2oilg0dp]

 

[Bubba]

Follower wrote:
“Its a VERY narrow mind that believes that foreknowing = ordaining.
God can foreknow something will happen and be prepared for it without controlling it.â€Â

For you and those like you, God looks into the future and sees who will say yes to Him and who will not before they are born, except Scripture says that we are dead in our transgressions until He makes us alive. Ephesians 2:1-5, “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsâ€â€it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.â€Â
If according to your theology he looks into the future and sees all those who will not say yes to Him and creates them anyway so that He can placed them in a eternity of Hell. Yet, Scripture says in Colossians 1:20, “and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.â€Â

Follower writes:
“God foreknew what would happen and laid out a plan for mans fall.
That DOESNT mean that GOD subjected man and creation TO 'corruption' BEFORE Adam chose to sin.
You folks have yet to prove any such concept from scripture.â€Â

Yet Scripture says that God created Satan as a murderer, liar and tempter from the beginning. People like you, say this cannot possibly be true because stated in the creation story all was created good. All was good in the beginning in respect to God’s economy and plan, where even the evil tool of Satan, would be used to cause mankind to mature, appreciate and grow in knowledge of God. In Isaiah 45:7 we have Scripture say, “Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things†(Young’s literal translation), how was God preparing evil? This is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis with the verse 2:17 for evil (tree of good and evil) that God created. That was created by God in the beginning (evil), while you insist that Satan could not be created evil, because all was created good. The verse actually states, “And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.†(YLT) All God created was very good in respect to His purposes.




Follower writes:
“here it is again.

The WHOLE creation which WAS GOOD in the beginning now has been affected by Adams transgression...
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(Romans 8:20-22 KJV)

ALL creation has been subjected to futility and corruption, which WAS NOT said about it in the beginning when it WAS 'good'.

It was not 'corrupted' by God in the beginning as some false doctrines profess.
It happened when Adam chose to sin and thus caused himself and creation to be subjected TO this punishment.
Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.
The change happened when Adam sinned and God pronounced judgment on man..â€Â

First off Follower why do you use a translation like KJV, instead of going straight to the literal Greek translation? The literal Greek translation is;

“20for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, “. A bit different understanding of the verse now Follower, would you not say?
I am not Benoni, but we do have similar beliefs.
Bubba

.

 

[Drew]

Romans 9, as I have shown already, is ABOUT what has transpired with Israel.
That it mentions the gentiles DOESNT negate that fact.

I have only just scanned some of the posts here, so I am not sure who am I agreeing with and about what.

I certainly agree that Romans 9 is not, in any sense, a treatment of the matter of the election of individuals to an eternal fate. I agree with FoC that when Paul penned Romans 9, his main objective was to explain something about Israel.

And, equally clearly, the explanation that Paul gives does indeed weave the Gentiles into the picture. If I had to sum up Romans 9 in one sentence it would be this: "The fact that the nation of Israel is largely stuck in unbelief is part of God's plan - He hardened the nation of Israel with the very specific intent of extending the gift of covenant membership to the Gentile."

 

[follower of Christ]

For you and those like you, God looks into the future and sees who will say yes to Him and who will not before they are born, except Scripture says that we are dead in our transgressions until He makes us alive.

Sorry but that He makes us alive does NOT say that He dictates WHO will choose Him.
Romans says those whom He FOREKNEW He THEN PREDESTINED To be conformed to the image of His Son.
He foreknows our choice to love Him, and so BECAUSE of that choice He works things together for our good.
Read the WHOLE bible, friend, not just the parts you think agree with your error

 

[follower of Christ]

If according to your theology he looks into the future and sees all those who will not say yes to Him and creates them anyway so that He can placed them in a eternity of Hell.

Thats really pathetic logic there.
Just because He KNOWS that many will reject Him DOESNT mean that THAT is what HE would WANT.
Yes, He creates them anyway....HE is SOVEREIGN...who are you and I to question Him in the matter ?
His creating them knowing the choice they will make does NOT dictate that HE makes that choice for them.

Your version of truth in this matter is FAR worse than mine.
At least in MY view man DOES have a choice.
Much better than this absurdity that God subjected creation to corruption while calling it 'good' and before man had actually done any wrong.
My view allows choice.
Yours seems to make God into some monster who is purposefully and relentlessly punching out souls that have no options but to go to hell, no choice whatsoever.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yet Scripture says that God created Satan as a murderer, liar and tempter from the beginning.

Im sorry, where was that passage again that says this EXACTLY as you have stated it ?
God didnt create this being AS a murderer...that would make GOD the murderer, liar and tempter.
You only come to your fallacious conclusions because you reject passages that deal with Lucifers rebellion and being cast out of heaven.
Its easy to make GOD the murderer when you reject most of the truth and evidence from scripture, isnt it ;)

Creation could NOT be 'good' and 'corrupt' at the same time.

WHEN the creation week was finished everything was very good.

 

[follower of Christ]

First off Follower why do you use a translation like KJV, instead of going straight to the literal Greek translation? The literal Greek translation is;

Please.
I use two dozen versions, friend....dont even try this little game with me.

Secondly MOST versions Ive looked into AGREE with the KJV's rendering, thus it seems that the majority of OTHER men who ARE scholars of greek and Hebrew AGREE with the conclusions of the KJV translators.

The real question here is why YOU feel that the english speaking world was ROBBED by God of His truth for centuries until your bible came on the scene. Poor God...only able to give us a bible that makes us believe that man has choice for so long

“20for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject [it] -- in hope, “.
A bit different understanding of the verse now Follower, would you not say?
Bubba

Yeah...precisely why I use so many versions including those rendered directly from the Greek Majority Texts instead of the Textus Receptus.
ONE version can be rendered so badly that a person can use it to pervert the truth entirely.
I get this with the NASB and its horrible rendering of parts of Matthew 19 with certain folks in the MDR discussion.
Little hint. If you have to hide from the KJV and a ton of others, something is sorely wrong with your theology.

 

[follower of Christ]

Romans 9, as I have shown already, is ABOUT what has transpired with Israel.
That it mentions the gentiles DOESNT negate that fact.

I have only just scanned some of the posts here, so I am not sure who am I agreeing with and about what.

I certainly agree that Romans 9 is not, in any sense, a treatment of the matter of the election of individuals to an eternal fate. I agree with FoC that when Paul penned Romans 9, his main objective was to explain something about Israel.

And, equally clearly, the explanation that Paul gives does indeed weave the Gentiles into the picture. If I had to sum up Romans 9 in one sentence it would be this: "The fact that the nation of Israel is largely stuck in unbelief is part of God's plan - He hardened the nation of Israel with the very specific intent of extending the gift of covenant membership to the Gentile."

I agree.

And its VERY clear that Paul DOES use the fact that Esau was hated before he was born..and that He took the reigns with Pharoah for a spell.
And this shows that His sovereign will WILL be done in an absolute sense...even in cases where He has to do this sort of thing, but it doesnt actually teach that ALL of us are predestined.
These folks dont seem to understand the different aspects of Gods will.
Some things come about because of His sovereign will.
And some things He ALLOWS to happen...His 'permissive' will.
One is not threatened by the other because God FOREKNOWS every detail.

For people to take Romans 9 and turn it into the individual predestination for ALL of us is more than likely one of these things Paul said that Peter tells us some distort to their own destruction.

Many who believe like benoni and bubba here also believe that GOD is the source of mans sin. That we are mere drones whose every action is ultimately controlled by God. If we torture and murder children and women, then it is GOD who makes us to do so, supposedly.
It is a very convenient religion that takes OUR choice to sin off of us and puts it in Gods lap....and how could a man who believed such nonsense be TRULY repentant for the sin he commits when he doesnt really believe that HE is the one who chooses to commit it ?

These heresies, these lies of satan, are more meant to make God the culprit, just as Satan tried to do with Eve in the Garden;

And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die, for God knows that in the day you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil.
(Genesis 3:4-5 MKJV)

No man can be TRULY sorrow for HIS sin while he believes that GOD is the ultimate source of his choice to sin.
I personally believe that these doctrines are spun by Satan himself against God to keep men from BEING repentant for their sins.


.

 

[Bubba]

Were you going to discuss “evil†in the beginning being considered good in the right context ,like the “Tree of the knowledge of good and evilâ€Â, where “evil†is the same word is used in Isaiah 45:7?

Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Were you going to discuss “evil†in the beginning being considered good in the right context ,like the “Tree of the knowledge of good and evilâ€Â, where “evil†is the same word is used in Isaiah 45:7?

Bubba

What 'evil' was there in the beginning ?
You are ASSUMING that the angels and Lucifer/Satan were created PRIOR to the earth and the heavens being created.
If so, where is your evidence of that assertion ?

Understanding good and bad doesnt presume to say that evil actually existed prior to the earth and heavens (creation) being created.

 

[Ret]

In Isaiah 45:7 we have Scripture say, “Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things†(Young’s literal translation), how was God preparing evil? This is the same Hebrew word used in Genesis with the verse 2:17 for evil (tree of good and evil) that God created. That was created by God in the beginning (evil), while you insist that Satan could not be created evil, because all was created good. The verse actually states, “And God seeth all that He hath done, and lo, very good; and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day the sixth.†(YLT) All God created was very good in respect to His purposes.

So what was it that GOD SAW....? three days GOD SAW...GOOD,
but on the 6th day GOD SAW everything he had made...it was VERY GOOD!

1 Samuel 16:7
for the LORD seeth not as man seeth;
for man looketh on the outward appearance,
but the LORD looketh on the heart. KJV


Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him (Jesus);
he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,
he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the
LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many;
for he shall bear their iniquities. KJV

2 Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. KJV

In Eden, God was looking - SEEING - eternal things, not temporal things...and
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied

 

[Benoni]

Were you going to discuss “evil†in the beginning being considered good in the right context ,like the “Tree of the knowledge of good and evilâ€Â, where “evil†is the same word is used in Isaiah 45:7?

Bubba

What 'evil' was there in the beginning ?
You are ASSUMING that the angels and Lucifer/Satan were created PRIOR to the earth and the heavens being created.
If so, where is your evidence of that assertion ?

Understanding good and bad doesnt presume to say that evil actually existed prior to the earth and heavens (creation) being created.

Where is your evidence that Lucifer is Satan?

 

[follower of Christ]

Where is your evidence that Lucifer is Satan?

We BOTH know you arent going to accept anything offered, friend....therefore I wouldnt waste my time amusing you with the details...

If THIS is all you have, then I submit that we are finished here.

What 'evil' was there in the beginning ?
You are ASSUMING that the angels and Lucifer/Satan were created PRIOR to the earth and the heavens being created.
If so, where is your evidence of that assertion ?

Understanding good and bad doesnt presume to say that evil actually existed prior to the earth and heavens (creation) being created.