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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Did God Cause the Fall?
- Thread starter Benoni
- Start date
F
follower of Christ
Guest
It means the same thing Romans does....Those whom God FOREKNEW He ALSO PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son.Bubba said:
Why is it that you folks love to rip verses out here and there without harmonizing ALL of the data ?
Follower,
I was referring to " ...works all things after the counsel of His will", would not "all things" include the "Fall"? Though, ultimately Adam is responsible for his sin, God nonetheless uses sin and evil for His purposes and plans for the human race.
Bubba
I was referring to " ...works all things after the counsel of His will", would not "all things" include the "Fall"? Though, ultimately Adam is responsible for his sin, God nonetheless uses sin and evil for His purposes and plans for the human race.
Bubba
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Which is ALL a RESULT of Adams sin.Bubba said:
*IF* Adam had NOT CHOSEN to willfully sin then we wouldnt be having this discussion, now would we?
God foreknew and because of mans CHOICE to sin, He set into motion a plan 'after the counsel of His will'...in order to save mankind and give method to reunite what would be separated.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Do you have anything to actually ADD to this discussion ?mondar said:
If not could you find a way to ignore my posts ?
Thanks for your cooperation...
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
Why do you do continue to do this? Do you really think that serious readers will dismiss my arguments simply because you resort to such rhetoric? And it is strange that you would attempt such a strategy, given how past discussions between us have panned out (e.g the discussion about the nature of the term "gospel" where it became clear that the exegetical weight lay behind the position for which I was advocating).mondar said:
I plan to address your argument in detail - let the reader determine the quality of the arguments without "rhetorical" promptings.
- Thread starter
- #169
Do you have anything to actually ADD to this discussion ?follower of Christ said:
If not could you find a way to ignore my posts ?
Thanks for your cooperation...[/quote:33ktwhax]
I find it easy to ignore your post; if anyone is treating God's Word like a Muslin hollowing "Allah Akubar" it is you. God’s Word means nothing to you and you hear only what you have already been taught and no more. The words of scripture cannot change your thinking because you are too busy changing their meaning without cause except you do not agree with the verses presented. That it why it is a waist of time to discuss anything pertaining to God’s Word to you; I have seen worse cases; at least you have a heart for religion, BUT you do not have a heart for truth as God’s Word is revealed.
- Thread starter
- #170
How true is the word, "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23).
The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!
The biggest lie that ever was told in human language is that all men are born free moral agents. They are not born free. Be honest! Ask, Is that child free who is born in the slums; the child of a harlot and a whoremonger; a child without a name, who grows up with the brand of shame upon his brow from the beginning; who grows up amidst vice, and never knows virtue until it is steeped in vice? Is such a child a FREE MORAL AGENT, free to act intelligently, as he chooses, upon all moral questions? Is that child free who grows up amidst falsehood, and never knows what truth is until it is steeped in lies; that never knows what honesty is until it is steeped in crime? Is that child born free? Is that child free who is born in a communist land and in a godless home; who is told by its government and taught by its teachers that there is no God in heaven, and never knows even a verse of Scripture until it is steeped in unbelief and infidelity? Is that child born free? Is he a free moral agent? It is a sham, a delusion, and a snare to say it. It is not true. All are not born into this world as free moral agents. The truth is much stronger than that, for the fact is, that NONE are free moral agents!
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Do you even pay attention, friend ?Bubba said:
Go back and READ my posts...Ive explained my view clearly enough.
It would seem that this absurd argument is all you have currently ?
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Please.Benoni said:
This pathetic 'god' you worship is so powerless that if He allows even one act of free will he loses control of creation.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Aww gee...Benoni said:
Now if that were the ENTIRE scope of relevant information...too bad it isnt.
Im very sure I can bring up a verse or two and start demanding things of you that you arent going to comply with even tho scripture instructs you to.
This one versin tripe is for the birds...learn some context.
They are AS FREE as GOD has created them to be...ie they CAN make the choice to sin, as ADAM and his wife CHOSE do commit.
Such an absurdly ridiculous comparison.
Id say Im amazed that you present it, but seeing your posts so far it fits right in with the rest of your joke of a doctrine.
Not being able to choose my parents or where I was born BEFORE the fact has NOTHING to do with my ability to make the decisions I CAN make because I AM aware of the options and have the ABILITY to make choose which one I will take.
I dont get to choose my skin color....I CAN choose what I want for breakfast.
I dont get to choose my height...I CAN choose if Im going to get a drink of water.
I dont get to choose my parents....I CAN choose to do right or wrong today.
You really need to stop doing this because its making you look bad...and desperate.
- Thread starter
- #174
follower of Christ said:Please.Benoni said:
This pathetic 'god' you worship is so powerless that if He allows even one act of free will he loses control of creation.
As usual you try to bring the debate down to your personal attacks; I am speaking to you about how you totally ignore the fact that Romans 8:20 which declares it was not Adam's Choice; but God who caused the fall. That the word freewill or choice has nothing to do verse in James; no matter how much to try to make it spin that way.
You claim that when God made man in the first place, He endowed him with freedom of will, the ability to accept God's love or reject it, to keep God's laws or break them, and that the decision here and now is a final choice. But our Lord says, "No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him" (Jn. 6:44).
How free man is, how far his freedom reaches. A little observation and study will show that man's freedom has very narrow limits. One is able to wish or desire or purpose as he pleases, but when he comes to carry out his wish or desire or purpose, he finds that he faces a problem. One is not free in the physical realm. Just let him try to jump off the Earth and land on Mars, for example. One is not free in the social realm. Not every man can marry the woman he wishes. One is not free in the economic realm. Not every person who dreams of being a millionaire can become one, no matter how hard he tries.
One is not free in the moral and spiritual realm. He may desire with all his being to rid the world of drunkenness and vice, of greed and hate and war, but who has yet accomplished that? Many are not able to free even themselves from a little weed called tobacco!
God is God of all things, you do not believe this fact for your post makes the sovereignty of God more like the Sovereignty of Satan or the sovereignty man’s freewill’ God has no power in your lack of vision.
- Thread starter
- #175
Such an absurdly ridiculous comparison.follower of Christ said:
Id say Im amazed that you present it, but seeing your posts so far it fits right in with the rest of your joke of a doctrine.
Not being able to choose my parents or where I was born BEFORE the fact has NOTHING to do with my ability to make the decisions I CAN make because I AM aware of the options and have the ABILITY to make choose which one I will take.
I dont get to choose my skin color....I CAN choose what I want for breakfast.
I dont get to choose my height...I CAN choose if Im going to get a drink of water.
I dont get to choose my parents....I CAN choose to do right or wrong today.
You really need to stop doing this because its making you look bad...and desperate.[/quote:w40pgcma]
The problem with you is the only relevant information you have is in your own mind; no matter what verse we have shown you that does not fit your worn out ine skin is never relevant information.
F
follower of Christ
Guest
What a joke. Read some of YOUR own posts...Benoni said:
Sorry but it DOESNT say that at all...that is YOUR twist on what it DOES say.
Sure it does.
James VERY clearly shows that GOD is NOT causing to sin...MAN is by his own FREEDOM to choose.
Exactly.
God MUST be drawing...man isnt even AWARE of Gods presence without God drawing the man.
I could not marry my wife UNLESS I was aware of her presence and she was in my presense.
By the same sort of token we cannot come to God BECAUSE we have been separated from HIm BECAUSE of Adams CHOICE to sin against Him...
F
follower of Christ
Guest
you have yet to show me anything that shows that man doesnt have the ChOICE to sin.Benoni said:
F
follower of Christ
Guest
Is as far as GOD has ALLOWED...which is freedom to CHOOSE to obey or not obey Him..the CHOICE Adam had freedom to make.
anther ridiculous comparison.
I CANT jump to the moon....I CAN choose to eat an egg for breakfast.
(personal attack)
Sorry gent but YOUR god has to micromanage or he loses all control.
MY God can FREE will and NOT be so threatened like your pathetic god is.
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
In reference to Ephesians 2 and the phrase "by nature":
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
Note how all the following translations render the Greek term – the very same one as used in the text at issue in Ephesians 2 – is rendered as “by birthâ€Â:
NET: We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
NIV: "We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
NLT: You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles
BBE: We Jews know that we have no advantage of birth over "non-Jewish sinners."
NRSV: We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
This is not the end of the story, of course. Other translations such as the KJV and NASB use the term “by natureâ€Â.
But there are other cases where the Greek root “fusei†– translated as “by nature†in the Ephesians 2 text - clearly denotes “by circumstances of birth†and is not being used to make any kind of commitment about what is true about the person’s “natureâ€Â. Consider this from Romans 2:
and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.
The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “by nature†as is rendered as “by nature†in the Ephesians 2 text.
Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in Romans 2:27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of bith for the Gentile.
It is therefore clear that one cannot simply assume that “by natureâ€Â, as used in Ephesians 2:3, is making any kind of statement about the inner nature of the human person. That could be the case, of course, but it is also possible that it is not.
Drew said:
I very much doubt it. Paul here in Galatians 2 is, I suggest, using the phrase “by nature†to denote “by birthâ€Â. You generally become a Jew by being born a Jew. It would be quite odd for Paul to be drawing a Jew-Gentile distinction that is not rooted in circumstances of birth. And what's more your assertion that Paul holds the Jew to be more “moral by long practice of morality†is undermined by Paul’s clear assertion from Romans 3 that the Jew and the Gentile are equally immoral.mondar said:
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
Note how all the following translations render the Greek term – the very same one as used in the text at issue in Ephesians 2 – is rendered as “by birthâ€Â:
NET: We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
NIV: "We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
NLT: You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles
BBE: We Jews know that we have no advantage of birth over "non-Jewish sinners."
NRSV: We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
This is not the end of the story, of course. Other translations such as the KJV and NASB use the term “by natureâ€Â.
But there are other cases where the Greek root “fusei†– translated as “by nature†in the Ephesians 2 text - clearly denotes “by circumstances of birth†and is not being used to make any kind of commitment about what is true about the person’s “natureâ€Â. Consider this from Romans 2:
and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, [art] a transgressor of law.
The same Greek root “fusei†is rendered here as “by nature†as is rendered as “by nature†in the Ephesians 2 text.
Clearly the term “fusei†should be understood as having a “by birth†meaning here in Romans 2:27 – being uncircumcised is a circumstance of bith for the Gentile.
It is therefore clear that one cannot simply assume that “by natureâ€Â, as used in Ephesians 2:3, is making any kind of statement about the inner nature of the human person. That could be the case, of course, but it is also possible that it is not.
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
My pleasure: Here are numerous translations of Galatians 2:15 - which has the relevant Greek word which is translated as "by nature" in a number of different places - where this very same Greek term is translated as by birth:mondar said:
NET: We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners,
NIV: "We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’
NLT: You and I are Jews by birth, not ‘sinners’ like the Gentiles
BBE: We Jews know that we have no advantage of birth over "non-Jewish sinners."
NRSV: We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
In light of the fore-going, I suggest you might want to re-consider this little bit of dismissive rhetoric:
I suppose that all the men who worked on these translations are as ignorant as me? Please.