Did God Cause the Fall?

[follower of Christ]

Romans11:36, "For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
Scripture seems to support that God orchestrated the Fall, just like He orchestrated the crucificion of His Son, using evil men like clay in a Potter's hand, Romans 9 again, not just Jews but Gentiles too (verse 24).
Bubba

Again you just rip anything you want out of context to push your false doctrine.
Youre starting to sound like that young woman whom I debated last year who believed this tripe doctrine and said that GOD was responsible for men who rape babies...that HE 'ordained' and 'orchestrated' that crime...Is that what your claiming ?

Romans 11 is about Israel. It has nothing to do with God CAUSING Adam to sin against Himself and so fall.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

 

[mondar]

Another of your many misrepresentations of my position.

Drew, do you or do you not believe that justification has three tenses, past-present-and future.... and that future justification is based upon works?

Wow...getting that far in instead of just looking at the CONTEXT of the whole to see if God has behaved in such a way with man that would show that MAN is the cause of his own failure by his choice to run into sin rather than GOD being responsible for it ?

LOL--- Why not write something worth a response?

 

[mondar]

Drew, Go back and read your statement on what others believe the word phusis (nature) means. I challenged you to show someone, or anyone who used the definition you said was wrong. Did you? Or did you simply ignore the complain and then call my complaint "rhetoric?"
You could have wrecked my complaint by simply quoting the source of your definition. It did not actually exist though, did it? The definition that you said was wrong you simply made it up. Would it not be honest to admit that it was a straw man and that you made the definition up?

I have no idea what you are talking about. I provided examples of Bible versions which translated the word "phusis" as "by birth".

Your implication here that I am making things up is, frankly, outrageous, and, of course, without merit. When will your shameless behaviour end?

Yes, I see that you are not following the thread and what I am saying. If you go back and reread what I said when I accused you of making a straw man maybe it will be clear.

You said....

When we read this as 21st century westerners, we think that when the phrase “by nature†is used, a statement is being made about our fundamental constitution.

That is what I was talking about "a straw man." Again, there is no such definition anywhere that you quote from your imaginary 21st century westerner. That is something you made up, its a myth, a figment of your mind. No one defines nature in the way you suggest this imaginary 21st century westerner does. Please show me one source that says "when the phrase “by nature†is used, a statement is being made about "our fundamental constitution." No one ever said that.

When I challenge you to provide sources where you got that statement from, I get silence from you, if the source existed, you would have quoted it. Then when you cannot provide a source you make accusations that that my behavior is without merit, shameless, and all that rubbish. Sometimes I think you believe your own obtusification and fog making.

 

[mondar]

Would it not be honest to admit that it was a straw man and that you made the definition up?

Moderators?

Mondar, you repeatedly engage in subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) misrepresentation, falsehood, and innuendo. I am willing to engage in a serious discussion, are you?

Then please engage in a serious discussion. I am waiting for some serious responses.

 

[mondar]

OK, I will admit that I looked back over the thread and I missed your posts of ...

by Drew on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:32 pm
by Drew on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:45 pm

Things move a little fast and I don't always have time to keep up. My apologies for missing your posts. I will admit that you made some effort to present information. That was even a small degree of english bible exegesis since you quoted several translations on Galatians 2, and Romans 2.

This is not an admission that the exegesis changes how we should read Ephesians 2. Somewhere in your writings you deny that you are trying to read Galatians back into Ephesians 2. However, in your post on "Drew on Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:50 pm" you said...
"But there is precedent for Paul using the term "by nature" to really say "by birth".

Here is an example, Galations 2:15:

We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles

Clearly, Paul means "by birth" here. He is not asserting that Jews are born with fundamentally different inner constitutions than Gentiles."

If you look at your first sentence in the quote, does that not sound to you like you were denying that the word phusis in Ephesians 2 refers to the nature of man as an angry rebel who is dead in his sins and trespasses. You seemed to be suggesting it refers to our birth, and this somehow denies that we are angry rebels by nature.

Whatever you were trying to say in the past is not the point. What do you say now? Is man a rebel from God by nature due to Adams fall and the fact that we are all in Adam? Is the word phusis (nature) in Ephesians 2:3 talking about that nature of man? If you deny this, please also make a positive statement on Ephesians 2:3 and articulate what you think it is talking about.

 

[mondar]

Follower of Christ,
I am curious... do you think the sin of Adam had any effect on your life or on your free will in any way?

 

[follower of Christ]

LOL--- Why not write something worth a response?

I'd ask the same.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower of Christ,
I am curious... do you think the sin of Adam had any effect on your life or on your free will in any way?

The topic here is 'Did God cause the Fall"
And I think the passage Ive quoted a number of times now answers that question directly and clearly.

 

[mondar]

Follower of Christ,
I am curious... do you think the sin of Adam had any effect on your life or on your free will in any way?

The topic here is 'Did God cause the Fall"
And I think the passage Ive quoted a number of times now answers that question directly and clearly.

where?

 

[Benoni]

Just thought I would post another verse of God' Word for you to spin or deny.

The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified).

Life neither begins or ends by choice and free will. Consider the matter of your own physical birth. What did you have to do with it, you were not consulted in the matter; you had nothing whatsoever to do with it. You did not have a choice as to where or when you would be born. You had no choice as to what kind of a home or family you would be born into. Would you like to have black hair, or blond hair, or no hair at all? Would you like to have brown eyes or blue? Would you like to have white skin, or black, or would green, or red, or yellow suit you better? And where would you like to live? In Miami, or Hong Kong, or Siberia, or maybe in the Congo?" Nothing of the sort! You were not even consulted. The sovereign Lord God of heaven and earth brought you into existence and ordained your path without so much a how-do-you-feel-about-it. And you had no choice as to how you would be born, in what condition or state of being.

 

[follower of Christ]

Just thought I would post another verse of God' Word for you to spin or deny.

Oh please.
You folks drag up the most irrelevant passages you can to force your error into.
Im sorry, where AGAIN does this say GOD CAUSED THE FALL ?????

The Psalmist declared, "Behold, I was brought forth in a state of iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me and 1, too, am sinful" (Ps. 51:5, Amplified).

We already covered this issue...

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Life neither begins or ends by choice and free will.

Fallacious nonsense.
Instruction by its very nature PRESUMES the FREEDOM to choose.
Figured that one out yet ?

Consider the matter of your own physical birth.

irrelevant. I had no options offered to me in the matter.
ADAM DID have options...eat or dont eat.
Adam CHOSE to eat and thus defied God.
My guess is that you dont even see how ridiculous this argument is and how its making you look.
The READERs of this thread arent ignorant enought to confuse things we CANNOT do or choose with those we CAN.
I CANT choose when and where Im born...no options have been presented to me.
I CAN choose to eat an apple or not when those options are presented to me....just as ADAM was PRESENTED with the option by God...OBEY or DISOBEY...that started with INSTRUCTION by God that presumed Adams ABILITY TO make that choice.

READERS SEE >>> Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"



.

 

[Benoni]

Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19).

If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny. But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God.

God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe.

It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground.

It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden.

It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden.

It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it.

And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!

Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent.

If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices.

If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be, and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made.

Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.

If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!

 

[follower of Christ]

Well did the apostle Paul write . ..... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned ... for by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom. 5:12,19).

Paul wrote what he wrote. Apparently you dont agree.

If any man had brought himself into being, then we can conceive of the possibility of his having something to say about his condition and destiny.

Such a ridiculous argument.
You continually set the bar for absurdity.

But mankind had absolutely nothing whatever to do with his coming into this world. It was the choice of God.

And its entirely I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T !
That ADAM did not create himself (absurdity at its finest) does NOT dictate that he would be UNable to follow the simple instruction 'do not eat'...

Your arguments are founded in so much non-sequitur irrelevance that its astounding even you are here pushing them.

God chose to bring this creature into existence because He had a definite plan for him in His creative purposes in the whole universe.

It was God who formed man of the dust of the ground.

Yes....we know

It was God who breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

It was God who placed man in the Garden of Eden.

It was God who planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the Garden.

It was God who gave the law that man should neither touch this tree nor eat of it.

And it was GOD who gave man FREE will to choose

And it was God who made the serpent and put him in the Garden and sent him along one beautiful day to tempt the man. It was GOD!

Im sorry, where is that verse again ?
God PERMITTED satan to tempt the woman and God ALLOWED Adam and Eve to sin with the free will He gave them.

Even if Adam was a free moral agent, God is responsible for what happened in the Garden, for whatever a free moral agent may do, He is responsible for it who made him a free moral agent.

Fallacious.
God gave Satan the same sort of free will as man.
Satan (Lucifer) DECIDED to rebel against God and then tempted man to do the same.

If God made man a free moral agent, then God created within man the propensities for either good or evil which determined his choices.

Of course He did....its called FREE WILL !

If God made man a free moral agent, He knew beforehand what the result would be,

Sounds like just one more non-sequitur fallacy to me.
And we KNOW that He knew beforehand...and that because of His FOREknowledge that He put a plan into place to save mankind.
That DOESNT show that God CAUSED the fall, Im afraid...and no amount of distortion on your part is going to make is that way.

and hence is just as responsible for the consequences of the acts of that free moral agent as He would be for the act of an irresponsible machine that He had made.

Pathetic.
READERS SEE >>> Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"

Man's free moral agency, even if it were true, would by no means clear God from the responsibility of his acts since God is his Creator and has made him in the first place just what he is, well knowing what the result would be.

yes benoni...we know you must make GOD responsible for YOUR sin.

A man who claims that GOD caused the fall CANNOT be truly repentant for sin HE believes isnt his fault.
My bet is that Satan himself crafted this fallacy to keep its acolytes from finding salvation because they blame GOD for their sin instead of their own lusts..
READERS SEE >>> Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"

If God's will is ever thwarted, then He is not almighty. If His will is thwarted, then His plans must be changed, and hence He is not all-wise and immutable. If His will is never thwarted, then all things are in accordance with His will and He is the architect of all things as they exist. If He is all-wise and all-good, then all things, existing according to His will, must be working toward some wise and wonderful end!

And He isnt.
He foreknew Adams sin and set a plan in motion to bring man back into fellowship with Him.
That DOESNT mean GOD caused the fall

 

[Benoni]

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

 

[Ret]

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

Matthew 7:16-18

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. KJV

 

[Benoni]

We are speaking of the carnal nature of man, the unregenterated man.

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth.

Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God. When man insists that he still has a "spark" of divine good resident in his heart the Bible says,

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9).

When man contends that he is a free moral agent and can accept or reject the Lord by his own volition, the Word of God contradicts him, declaring,

"There is none righteous, no not one! There is none that understandeth, there is N-0-N-E THAT SEEKETH after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).

Man is totally depraved in the sense that everything about his nature is in rebellion against God. Man is loyal to the god of darkness and loves darkness rather than The Light. His will is, therefore, not at all "free". It is a slave to the flesh.

Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST.

Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth.

In fact, unregenerate man thinks of the things of God as being ridiculous! "The natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him. Neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (I Cor. 2:14).

Man cannot see or know the things which relate to the Kingdom of God, without being regenerated first by the Holy Spirit. A dead spirit perceives only the things of man and Satan. Hence the words of Jesus to Nicodemus: "Unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). Unborn children do not see the light. Dead men do not see the light.

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice. We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

Matthew 7:16-18

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. KJV

 

[Benoni]

And He isnt.
He foreknew Adams sin and set a plan in motion to bring man back into fellowship with Him.
That DOESNT mean GOD caused the fall

This is the closes you have come to the truth that God did cause the fall; keep up the good work. he not only forenew Adam' s sin He ordained it.


Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

Man has no choose, freewill to follow God; in fact the Bible teaches totally too contrary. It was god who caused the fall. And it is God who has a plan to fix it.

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.

It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares: You (God) turn man to destruction, Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NASB) 20Forthe creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

 

[follower of Christ]

This thread is really turning into somewhat of a joke...
'no, Im right...no, Im right....No..I'm right"

Your wrong God knows everything about His creation - we were not sinners by choice.

We certainly are sinners BECAUSE Adam CHOSE to disobey...ie SIN...

We were sinners by NATURE! We were BORN INTO this condition, simply because the first man, Adam, put us all into slavery to sin. We had nothing to say about it. We did not in any way will it, consent to it, or choose it, for we were born into it. And we were not born free moral agents. We were born slaves!

And PAUL SAYS this ALL BEGAN WITH ONE MAN !

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

 

[follower of Christ]

And He isnt.
This is the closes you have come to the truth that God did cause the fall; keep up the good work. he not only forenew Adam' s sin He ordained it.

Sorry but NOTHING youve shown says that.
I'll ask you again...when a man rapes a baby, is GOD ordaining for him to do it ? YES...or...NO ???
Ill ask you again until you answer.
I want the READERS here to SEE the horrible view you have of our God.
Its an easy question and IF you believe as you claim then you should have NO qualms in answering CLEARLY for us.

Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.
You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

AFTER Adam CHOSE to sin..absolutely it was subjected to the curse which came about BECAUSE of Adams sin (good grief...like talking to a wall)

Man has no choose, freewill to follow God; in fact the Bible teaches totally too contrary. It was god who caused the fall. And it is God who has a plan to fix it.

Sorry but ADAM had a choice. The man was in DIRECT fellowship with God.

It follows then

You have yet to PROVE your case....dont run into non-sequitur nonsense until you have...

ADAM CHOSE to sin, and because of sin ALL of creation is paying the penalty.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

It was God not little Adam and Eve who caused the fall, it was God not little Adam who planned as well as set up Adam and Eve to sin; it is God not Little Adam and Eve who declares:

It was little Adams CHOICE (because of free will given by God) that caused all of this..

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse, the creation (A)was subjected to (B)futility, not willingly, But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it.

The curse came AFTER the fall..AFTER Adam sinned chap..it doesnt get any clearer than that.

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Romans 8:20 (NLT) Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse.But with eager hope, 21 the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.

(NASB) 20Forthe creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

(NIRV) Romans 8: 20 The created world was bound to fail. But that was not the result of its own choice. It was planned that way by the One who made it. God planned 21 to set the created world free. He didn't want it to rot away completely. Instead, he wanted it to have the same glorious freedom that his

Ps. 90:1-3. "Lord, You have been our dwelling place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You have formed the earth or the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God. You (God) turn man to destruction; and say return you children of men.

Sorry, where again does ANY of them SAY that God CAUSED Adam to fall ???

READERS SEE >>> Hyper Predestination - "God made me do it"



.

 

[follower of Christ]

We are speaking of the carnal nature of man, the unregenterated man.

BECAUSE Adam sinned man is NOW separated from God.
This condition did NOT EXIST PRIOR to Adams sin. ..it was the result OF Adams CHOICE to sin.
SINCE man is no longer in fellowship with God, we now have to COME TO HIM when He draws us and fellowship with Him thru the Holy Spirit.

There is no fact more self-evident than the fact of the total depravity of man, or his TOTAL INABILITY to deliver himself from bondage to sin, and this is rooted in the fact that his human spirit is dead from birth. Total depravity means that man in his natural state is incapable of doing anything or desiring anything pleasing to God. Until our spirit is quickened by HIS SPIRIT we are slaves of the flesh and the devil and are enemies to God.

Ignorance.
BECAUSE of Adams sin and the subsequent SEPARATION from God that resulted.

When man contends that he is a free moral agent and can accept or reject the Lord by his own volition,
the Word of God contradicts him, declaring,
"There is none righteous, no not one! There is none that understandeth, there is N-0-N-E THAT SEEKETH after God" (Rom. 3:10-11).

We already covered this nonsense.
NO ONE here is claiming that the unregenerate man CAN or WILL seek God out without the Father DRAWING him.
Stop playing this bait and switch nonsense.
NONE of us seek Him BECAUSE of our state of separation from Him.
ONLY when HE draws are we even AWARE of His presence so that we CAN respond.
WHEN He draws WE have the CHOICE to repent and be born again....or we can reject His drawing.

Total depravity means that man, of his own free will," will NEVER MAKE A DECISION FOR CHRIST.

Sorry friend but when GOD DRAWS MAN CAN make that decision at that point.

Our blessed Lord bluntly says, "Ye will not come to Me, that ye might have life" (Jn. 5:40).

I realize that you THINK this verse supports your absurdity, but it doesn't. Its entirely unrelated to your argument.

Why does our Lord say this? Because the will of the unregenerate man is bound by the bands of sin and death to the god of the spiritually dead. Total depravity means that the natural man is completely incapable of discerning Truth.

Wrong.
Jesus is talking to JEWS who have ALREADY BEEN hardening their hearts towards God over thousands of years.
Learn some context for pities sake. This passage HAS a context...