Did God Cause the Fall?

[Bubba]

Follower, I do not always believe what Calvin wrote, but I do in regrds to this James passage:

You believe Calvin there BECAUSE he agrees with what YOU want to believe.
God does NOT lead men into sin or tempt them to sin.
God did NOT cause the fall of Adam/man

We done here?

Genesis 22:1 "Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied."
Job1:8-12 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

9 "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan replied. 10 "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

12 The LORD said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD."

Scripture seems to say God does tempt (test etc) for ultimate benefit. Whom should I believe ...you or God?
Bubba

 

[Benoni]

Adams sin had that much power BECAUSE HIS punishment was passed TO all men..
ADAM CHOSE to sin, just as WE CHOOSE to sin and because of that sin we are condemned as a race.

Yes you are right Adam's sin condemned the whole race. But what you are missing is something much more powerful then Adam's sin; Jesus blood that a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.


1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Of course these verses do not fit your broken wine skin or doctrines of damnations.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Benoni]

lets quit being obscenely absurd here.
God can STOP anything God WANTS to stop.
But God gave MAN FREE WILL and for the most part DOESNT infringe upon that FREE WILL.
That is the POINT of mans creation. A being WITH FREE WiLL who can CHOOSE to love, follow and obey his Creator or CHOOSE NOT TO.

HOGWASH... No god is helpless according to you, to stop man all powerful will that is MUCH greater then little god's will. Sure god has a will; but it is pretty weak and does not matter. It is not god's (notice the little "g") will that matters is little man's, little Adams. God's will is helpless because you claim man will is all powerful.

In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, " It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Rom. 9:16. We have only to consider the case of Saul of Tarsus to understand the miraculous power of the Lord to change the leopard's spots and melt the heart of stone. No man was evermore hateful toward Christ than Was Saul of Tarsus, yet, when his turn came to see the light, he changed in an Instant, crying out in fear and trembling and with bitter repentance. "Who art Thou, Lord'?" and "What wilt Thou have me to do?" It is God that controls the will, and He turns the hearts of mighty and rebellious kings as easily as He turns the water courses. Even in the case of Pharaoh the Lord Himself took the responsibility for the hardening of his heart. Had He not done so, Pharaoh would have yielded long before he did. The truth is that Pharaoh's hard heart was not hard enough to accomplish the difficult task the Lord had appointed for him, so the Lord undertook to harden his heart on six occasions until all His plan and will was accomplished through him.

Man does not have a freewill according to God's Word. How many time have you claimed this with not one Bible verse to back it up. Sorry Charlie this does not spin here. It may spin in your broken cisterns but there is no such animal in God's Word so lets put it on the shelf with trinity, Popes, Easter, and Adam causing the fall.

No scripture makes it a no go.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
To elaborate a bit, Abraham was asked to kill his son Isaac, the test was not for God’s benefit but for Abraham. On the surface we could say that God was wrong for telling Abraham to kill his son, because in our realm if someone told me to kill one of my children, it would be simply wrong. In God’s economy, by testing Abraham, He increased his faith, in that God had promised that in his seed, he would be father of all nations. By being obedient to God, he was trusting that God could nonetheless make good to His promise. The plus aspect is that we have a wonderful “type†in Abraham to Jesus and God the Father, except God the Father went all the way. Isaiah 53:4;
“Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.â€Â

In respect to Job, note that God actually goes out of His way with Satan to present Job as someone to consider messing with. Satan tells God that Job is to well protected by Him, God then lifts the protection. Again, Job ultimately benefits in the long run and we have another wonderful presentation of faith and trust when Hell breaks loose on an individual. Job states, “Though He Slay Me, Yet Will I Trust in Him".
Bubba

 

[Benoni]

and God had no power or ability to stop it.
lets quit being obscenely absurd here.
God can STOP anything God WANTS to stop.
But God gave MAN FREE WILL and for the most part DOESNT infringe upon that FREE WILL.
That is the POINT of mans creation. A being WITH FREE WiLL who can CHOOSE to love, follow and obey his Creator or CHOOSE NOT TO.

Your unscriptural fallacy literally destroys the entire premises of creation...it tears away the ENTIRE purpose of man being created.
*IF* God wanted brain dead meat puppets He could have created the mindless automatons you folks must believe we are.

Are we done here ?

I am just getting started..

You are the one obscenely absurd, you are one making God a god with NO power and authoity; making his will secondary to the creature God created

Yes my scriptural interpetation destroys the entire premises of your preconceived religious bias; you are the one who makes God a monster, makes his will helpless, Satan all powerful. It is your religious view of God that has been provent totally wrong over and over again; like Adam in the Garden the you hear another voice other then God's Word.

 

[follower of Christ]

Stop giving me you opinion and give me God' Word.

Stop repeating your garbage and READ MY POSTS.
I HAVE given you the word of GOD ...YOU simply seem unable to READ it

You keep dismissing God's Word like you are the finally authority; you’re not.

Look in the mirror...YOU are DOING the SAME THING !

You have twisted and distorted EVERY passage youve presented while rejecting VERY clear scriptures that PROVE your absurdity as being wrong.

No God changes men; that is why God not little Adam casued the fall. Satan a tool of God's leads men to sin. Satan tempts men; God is soverign over all things to include men, satan and fallen messengers.

GOD has NOTHING to with ADAMS fall.
End of story.

If God did not casue the fall show me in God's Word not your little opinion; Romans 8:20 you dismiss and replace it with your littlr opinion; show me in God's Word if this is true.

Romans 8:20, for the 100th time, does NOT SAY that Adam was subjected PRIOR to his CHOICE to sin.

Are we done here because this repetition and childishness is growing tiresome.

 

[follower of Christ]

Genesis 22:1 "Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied."
Job1:8-12 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

ADAM ISNT JOB !

God has caused FAR more than what your couple passages show, friend...that DOESNT MEAN that God CAUSED the FALL !

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes you are right Adam's sin condemned the whole race. But what you are missing is something much more powerful then Adam's sin; Jesus blood that a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race.

Im missing nothing that you know about, Im sure.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Romans 15 there is about the resurrection body....it has NOTHING to do with GOD causing Adam to choose to sin.

Youre all over the board here friend.

 

[follower of Christ]

HOGWASH... No god is helpless according to you, to stop man all powerful will that is MUCH greater then little god's will.

What pathetically absurd reasoning.
God giving man FREE WILL to CHOOSE is FAR greater than some meat puppet master who has to CAUSE every detail to follow his exact will so he can hopefully keep control...ie YOUR god.
A REAL God CAN allow His creation to have FREE will and is not threatened because He IS sovereign.

Only a pathetic, feeble old man of a god would have to micromanage so things didnt get beyond his control

In fact, the Bible teaches the exact opposite. It tells us, " It is not of him that willeth or of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy." Rom. 9:16.

Romans 9 is about the nation of Israel....not individual predestination and certainly NOT about God causing Adam to choose to sin against Him.
This god some of you preach here seems to be just playing a game with himself to keep himself amused...

Man does not have a freewill according to God's Word.

You cant even keep track of your own absurd arguments.
YOU JUST SAID

Yes we have a freewill to sin,

You cant even make up your mind what you believe.
Either we HAVE free will or we dont.
Apparently you havent figured it out yet

How many time have you claimed this with not one Bible verse to back it up.

AS many times as it takes for you to READ a post here...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

MAN makes the CHOICE to sin....GOD didnt cause ADam to fall.

 

[Benoni]

Stop giving me you opinion and give me God' Word.

Stop repeating your garbage and READ MY POSTS.
I HAVE given you the word of GOD ...YOU simply seem unable to READ it

You keep dismissing God's Word like you are the finally authority; you’re not.

Look in the mirror...YOU are DOING the SAME THING !

You have twisted and distorted EVERY passage youve presented while rejecting VERY clear scriptures that PROVE your absurdity as being wrong.

[quote:1k9ntfys]No God changes men; that is why God not little Adam casued the fall. Satan a tool of God's leads men to sin. Satan tempts men; God is soverign over all things to include men, satan and fallen messengers.

GOD has NOTHING to with ADAMS fall.
End of story.

If God did not casue the fall show me in God's Word not your little opinion; Romans 8:20 you dismiss and replace it with your littlr opinion; show me in God's Word if this is true.

Romans 8:20, for the 100th time, does NOT SAY that Adam was subjected PRIOR to his CHOICE to sin.

Are we done here because this repetition and childishness is growing tiresome.[/quote:1k9ntfys]

If anyone is acting childish and tiresome is you not getting into the meat of the Word; it is like God's Word is something you try to avoid is scritural debate; all you have it is you assuming, Why should I believe your religious lies based on your opinion; seeing all you do is ignore God’s Word and or spin it. I showed you using Ps. 90 1-3 and Romans 8:20; which you try refute with your warn out opinion and NOT God's Word. How many times have you give me your opinion just like this post over and over again. You show nothing but opinion; with no scriptural reference. Why should I stop; you don't.

If I twist and distort every passage show me with God's Word; you did one time quote a passage in reference to the fall of Adam in Genesis but all you did was assume something; assuming is not a valid point when God's Word totally contradicts you’re assumption.

 

[follower of Christ]

I am just getting started..

I certainly hope so...what we've seen so far has been fairly meaningless.

You are the one obscenely absurd, you are one making God a god with NO power and authoity; making his will secondary to the creature God created

Wrong.
*I* am making God SOVEREIGN by understanding that He can give man FREE will and is NOT THREATENED BY that free will.

YOUR absurdity makes God some pathetic little man who will crap his shorts if man does something of his own will...ie your god might lose control of man if he doesnt micromanage his every move

irrelevant tripe snipped

 

[Benoni]

I am just getting started..

I certainly hope so...what we've seen so far has been fairly meaningless.

You are the one obscenely absurd, you are one making God a god with NO power and authoity; making his will secondary to the creature God created

Wrong.
*I* am making God SOVEREIGN by understanding that He can give man FREE will and is NOT THREATENED BY that free will.

YOUR absurdity makes God some pathetic little man who will crap his shorts if man does something of his own will...ie your god might lose control of man if he doesnt micromanage his every move

irrelevant tripe snipped

God's Word not opinion please..

 

[follower of Christ]

If anyone is acting childish and tiresome is you not getting into the meat of the Word; it is like God's Word is something you try to avoid is scritural debate;

all you have it is you assuming, Why should I believe your religious lies based on your opinion;

You shouldnt believe me.
You should keep right on believeing your unscriptural nonsense so I can keep showing the readers how badly you pervert and distort scriptures then ignore the clear ones ;)

seeing all you do is ignore God’s Word and or spin it. I showed you using Ps. 90 1-3 and Romans 8:20; which you try refute with your warn out opinion and NOT God's Word. How many times have you give me your opinion just like this post over and over again.

NEITHER of which SAY what YOU claim they say.
MY verse from James, on the other hand, is VERY CLEAR....MAN is the source of his own sin...NOT God.

You show nothing but opinion; with no scriptural reference.

READERS ....do ya SEE this nonsense ?
You readers go back thru my posts and SEE how many times Ive posted CLEAR scripture for this gent. :D

If I twist and distort every passage show me with God's Word;

Thats pretty funny.
Show you where Gods word says 'benoni is twisting my word'....I think THAT is the only thing youd accept and I figure youd find a way to argue even that.

you did one time quote a passage in reference to the fall of Adam in Genesis but all you did was assume something; assuming is not a valid point when God's Word totally contradicts you’re assumption.

Youre hilarious.
YOu mean like ASSUMING that Romans 8:20 is about GOD causing Adam to fall when NOTHING in the verse says as much ? ;)

 

[follower of Christ]

God's Word not opinion please..

Certainly...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

MAN makes the CHOICE to sin....GOD didnt cause ADam to fall.

here it is again just in case you missed it...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

MAN makes the CHOICE to sin....GOD didnt cause ADam to fall.

 

[Benoni]

I have nothing to say to you until you use God's Word not opinion..

 

[follower of Christ]

I have nothing to say to you until you use God's Word not opinion..

Amazing.
Do you do it on purpose or are you really that oblivious ?

I guess THESE are MY words, right ?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

 

[Benoni]

James 1:13-15; this verse is your last ray of hope to prove your un-provable dogma. You reject Romans 8:20 and Ps 90 on the grounds you cannot agree with theses valid Bible verse; you give no scriptural reason why you reject them; you reject them because you do not like what they say; they do not fit your worn out wine skin; sorry that holds no water, it is not a good enough reason. You must use God's Word if you are going to reject a verse in God's Word. You use every angle/spin/twist you can think of and none of them even begin to hold up to the verse you blatantly attempt to dismiss.

We have discussed James 1:13-15 many times and many ways and frankly I see no reason to discuss it any more. We have explained God is sovereign and Satan is not. You reject the verses in God’s Word on Satan; why because you do not like them, you do not agree with them; sorry you give no Biblical reason except your opinion why you disagree with them. In fact first you claim God did not create Satan, and when I posted a valid Bible verse Satan was created by God; you rejected the verse on no grounds expect it did not say what you wanted it to say. James 1:13 has says little except God does not tempt us; that we agree on but this verse has nothing to do with God causing the fall and everything to do with temptation now; it is Satan who tempts us; but no you cannot except God controlling good and evil because of your opinion not God’s Word.

You have no substance in your debate, your debate is full of hollow opinion and bias; I see no reason to debate such shallow understanding and reason.

I have nothing to say to you until you use God's Word not opinion..

Amazing.
Do you do it on purpose or are you really that oblivious ?

I guess THESE are MY words, right ?

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

 

[Bubba]

Genesis 22:1 "Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied."
Job1:8-12 "Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

ADAM ISNT JOB !

God has caused FAR more than what your couple passages show, friend...that DOESNT MEAN that God CAUSED the FALL !

Follower,
Were you not the one who posted James 1:13-15 as proof that God does not tenpt, and now you have changed your tune. God does tempt (test) and that is exactly what He orchestrated in the Garden and being God He knew that Adam and Eve would fail and the plan of the ages was already in place, Jesus slained before the foundation of the earth (Rev.13:8). It seems very logical and rational to me, especially when you read Scripture like John 8:44 and Isaiah 54:16, and then reason why else was Satan created for evil.

Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

James 1:13-15; this verse is your last ray of hope to prove your un-provable dogma.

what a hoot.
You twist, distort and manipulate Gods CLEAR word and then talk about 'unprovable'...

You reject Romans 8:20 and Ps 90 on the grounds you cannot agree with theses valid Bible verse;

I reject YOUR misunderstanding of those passages that they supposedly say that GOD caused Adam to fall..which AGAIN is the TOPIC of THIS THREAD

you give no scriptural reason why you reject them;

Sure I have...

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

you reject them because you do not like what they say;

As you dont like what James CLEARLY states and so have to twist it into something other than what it is.

We have discussed James 1:13-15 many times and many ways and frankly I see no reason to discuss it any more.

We will discuss it as long as it remains relevant.
GOD did NOT cause Adam to sin.
Adam CHOSE to sin being lead into temptation by HIS OWN lusts.

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

We have explained God is sovereign and Satan is not.

God IS sovereign.
So much so that He can GIVE man FREE WILL and it is NO threat to His sovereignty.
Your god has to have complete control and micromanage or he might lose control of his creation.

You reject the verses in God’s Word on Satan;

I reject YOUR misrepresentation of them.

James 1:13 has says little except God does not tempt us; that we agree on but this verse has nothing to do with God causing the fall and everything to do with temptation now; it is Satan who tempts us; but no you cannot except God controlling good and evil because of your opinion not God’s Word.

James shows us CLEAR proof that your fallacy is unscriptural.
GOD is not the source of mans sin....MAN is.


irrelevance snipped...

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
Were you not the one who posted James 1:13-15 as proof that God does not tenpt, and now you have changed your tune.

Sorry but I havent.
Learn to comprehend what you read...

God does tempt (test)

God TESTS....He does not TEMPT.
Now you are calling God a LIAR !

Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God";
for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being drawn away and being seduced by them. Then lust, when it conceives, gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
(Jas 1:13-15 )

and that is exactly what He orchestrated in the Garden

WRONG.
WHERE is the PROOF of this statement ?
All Ive seen from you and benoni is CONJECTURE without ANY FACT !
ADAM PRIOR TO his CHOICE to SIN IS NOT JOB !

and being God He knew that Adam and Eve would fail and the plan of the ages was already in place,

God ALLOWING man to have FREE WILL who FOREKNEW that BECAUSE man would CHOOSE to sin put a plan in place because of that sin.
Again..the TOPIC OF THIS THREAD IS...."DID God CAUSE the fall"....to which the answer is NO !
God FOREKNEW and ALLOWED it..He did not CAUSE IT !