Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

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How did the wicked/evil angel become that way?

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

This says Lucifer was created perfect in his ways, until...

Finding evil that was already therein. Just as sin is "found out" when actually done. Doesn't mean it wasn't already therein.

Perfect "in thy ways" is the kicker. God made a perfect DEVIL, in his, the devil's ways.

You freewill folks think YOU create things by "your choices." I call that idolatry and pantheism.

Are you attempting to teach that God created Lucifer perfect in his ways, then turned around and decided to force him to have iniquity in his heart?

God created "all things." There is no way around it. The instant people have other/multiple creators, they have fallen into idolatry and pantheism.

 

[JLB]

And your position always fails when it encounters the fact that the opposition is built into us.

Opposition was not "built into us".

Sin was spread to all mankind through Adam's sin, so that everyone of the bloodline of Adam was "sown in corruption", in which they were born with a sin nature; a body that contained sin.

God did not "build into Adam" a body that contained sin.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The heart of man was made good.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”...31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:27-28,31

• Man choose to do evil.
• God did not force man to choose to do evil.

JLB

There were MANY things NOT GOOD in the Garden.

Genesis 2:18
And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Was a deceiver, a tempter, a liar in the Garden, VERY GOOD? I think not. Sorry.

The only way we can perceive any "thing" as very good is with Gods Own Hands upon the entirety.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[FreeGrace]

JLB said: ↑
Do you believe human beings and angels have the ability to choose between good and evil?

Absolutely not. A Holy Angel is exactly that. Holy. And a wicked/evil angel is the exact opposite.

Well, this is interesting. And very contradictory. Your claim is that the phrase "God created all things" includes creating evil by Him. Yet, He is clearly HOLY. And in your mind, a holy angel cannot choose evil. But HOLY God can create evil. Doesn't that ring rather hollow?

There is no such things IN the Holy.

Therefore, God, who is HOLY, cannot, and did not, create evil.

Does God have the knowledge of both good and evil?[/QUOT]
Being omniscient, of course He does. Which does NOT mean He created evil.

 

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Opposition was not "built into us".

Of course it was. Paul goes into great details about the planting conditions, of how Adam, the first man, was MADE in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But believers buy into the "choice" fairytale, that Adam 'created' evil in and by disobedience. That was never the case.

Believers can't even get through the first 3 chapters of Genesis without falling immediately into pantheism and idolatry with multiple creators, along with a boatload of accusations to Adam and Eve. Which coincidentally is what SATAN in man does.

go figure.

Sin was spread to all mankind through Adam's sin, so that everyone of the bloodline of Adam was "sown in corruption", in which they were born with a sin nature; a body that contained sin.

God had no long term prospects for the dust pile in any case. It was exactly Gods Plan to "create" a first, natural man, and then AFTER, a spirit man. That's how He Rolls.

God did not "build into Adam" a body that contained sin.

The instant God spoke His first Words to Adam, then Mark 4:15 transpired. Do the math from there.

The fact that Adam was ALREADY lawless is shown by the FIRST LAW, do not eat. Who is the LAW for? "The LAWLESS and SINNERS." 1 Tim. 1:9.

 

[JLB]

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Proverbs 16:4

God has indeed ordained [allowed] the wicked for the day of evil.

That is what this verse is teaching us.

The KJV translates Strongs H6466 in the following manner: work ,workers , do , make , commit , doers , Maker ,ordaineth .

1. to do, make
   1. (Qal)
      1. to do
      2. to make
         

In Hebrew, only used poetically...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6466&t=KJV



JLB

 

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JLB said: ↑
Do you believe human beings and angels have the ability to choose between good and evil?

Well, this is interesting. And very contradictory. Your claim is that the phrase "God created all things" includes creating evil by Him.

Any time we ascribe another "creator" of anything, we have issues. I'm not going there.

Yet, He is clearly HOLY.

You think God is not Holy and Powerful enough to make the power of evil HIS servant? I think otherwise. God doesn't need our "personal insulation." God is far more than the sum of all things in His creation. What is evil to Him but a drop in a bucket?

And in your mind, a holy angel cannot choose evil. But HOLY God can create evil. Doesn't that ring rather hollow?

The instant your position ascribes a single evil thought to A HOLY ANGEL, they are defiled, internally, and can not BE HOLY, when they are in fact "internally defiled." Holy Angels don't rotate in and out of Holiness.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

Therefore, God, who is HOLY, cannot, and did not, create evil.

There is no "therefore." God is far greater than the sum of all things. Your position just carves out a self subscribed God who is not Great Enough to create and use evil for His Own Perfect Purposes is really all that we are dealing with.

And from there your position falls into "multiple creators" because that self subscribed God needs "protection."

 

[JLB]

Of course it was. Paul goes into great details about the planting conditions, of how Adam, the first man, was MADE in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. But believers buy into the "choice" fairytale, that Adam 'created' evil in and by disobedience. That was never the case.

Adam didn't create evil, and no one said he did.

That's a "red herring" made up by you, because you have no case.

Adam "pro-created" through the natural birth process, in which he passed on his DNA to all mankind.


JLB

 

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The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Proverbs 16:4

God has indeed ordained [allowed] the wicked for the day of evil.

That is what this verse is teaching us.

The KJV translates Strongs H6466 in the following manner: work ,workers , do , make , commit , doers , Maker ,ordaineth .

1. to do, make
   1. (Qal)
      1. to do
      2. to make

In Hebrew, only used poetically...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6466&t=KJV

JLB

The scripture ain't changing by any man's twisting.

"The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

 

[smaller]

Adam didn't create evil, and no one said he did.
That's a "red herring" made up by you, because you have no case.
Adam "pro-created" through the natural birth process, in which he passed on his DNA to all mankind.
JLB

Ah, so "evil" and "disobedience" are materially FORENSIC? Empirically derived? We could have some fun with that false claim. A claim in which the positions of your cohort, Jethro fell into.

Disobedience is "a spirit." Eph. 2:2.

 

[JLB]

Any time we ascribe another "creator" of anything, we have issues. I'm not going there.

Sin was spread to all mankind through Adam's disobedience.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5;12

Your trying to deceive these people, of this forum, that through God Himself sin entered the world.



I rebuke you in name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and the spirit of error that is upon you to deceive, to cease teaching this Heresy!


JLB

 

[JLB]

The scripture ain't changing by any man's twisting.

"The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

The Lord has made all for Himself,
Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Proverbs 16:4

God has indeed ordained [allowed] the wicked for the day of evil.

That is what this verse is teaching us.

The KJV translates Strongs H6466 in the following manner:work ,workers , do , make , commit , doers , Maker ,ordaineth .

1. to do, make
   1. (Qal)
      1. to do
      2. to make

In Hebrew, only used poetically...

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H6466&t=KJV



JLB

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil."

We all can read that God created all things. What is your point?

We know, from scripture, that God created all powers. Col. 1:16. We also know from scripture that "evil" is a power. Hab. 2:9.

Do the math. It's clear enough.

I think "all things" involve people, angels, etc. Evil isn't a "thing". Therefore, the statement that God created all things doesn't include evil.

People try to describe "evil" as a lot of "different things" other than the "power" that it factually is. They will ascribe it as non-existing except where there is "no light." Then "evil" is there, popped up out of nowhere, all on it's own. And they do this because they are in denial that God created 'all things' and they must protect this 'other' God they have conjured up in their own minds who is not Great Enough to create and use "all things." That's the long and the short of most of these theological fantasies.

Jesus told us where evil comes from: “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.s Matt 18:15

There is zero question that 'evil' is an internal matter.

Evil isn't created. But it comes from the heart.

Oh? God didn't 'create' the heart now? Is that your claim?

Correct. Because evil is not a thing. Try to prove otherwise.

Oh? So evil doesn't really exist in the heart? Is that your claim?

Why would I think such a nonsense idea?

I have no idea where you think you're going with this quite frankly, other than to isolate God from being The Creator of "all things."

Actually, words DO mean things. And there has been no attempt on your side to defend your position against James 1:13, which essentially supports the OPPOSITE of your view. God doesn't tempt, nor is tempted. Therefore, being a HOLY God, He cannot and did not create evil.

Again, a one sided view. We also know from scripture that God DID tempt Abraham, in Gen. 22:1. So leaning to James' statement only doesn't and can't address scriptural reality.

Do you ever consider that GOD TEMPTS the "evil" in MAN? And that "evil" is DEMONIC?

I wonder why the idea that Creator God cannot create humans with the ability to create has any credence.

There is no way to eliminate Gods Own Hands from being upon any and all "things" that exist in His creation. Which is what your position is attempting to do.

I believe that Creator God created mankind with the ability to create things. Was not Adam (human race) created "in His image"? Of course he was. I have no problem with the fact that humans can create.

Oh, I see. So, God is NOT involved with ANY of that? Is that your claim? That multiple creators function in creation totally and completely apart from ANY of Gods Involvements?

I find that rather ludicrous myself.

I'm truly sorry if that is your state of being. But Jesus Christ REMOVED the power of death for me.

Well, guess what? The flesh of both of us IS going to DIE. Period. Scripture considers it already so for us.

Heb 2:14 - Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil

Therefore, the power of death does NOT remain upon "all mankind" as claimed. The claim is false.

A casual stroll through any graveyard should put that notion to rest.

1 Corinthians 3:22
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

Why would anyone argue about physical death? Of course we all (minus a very few humans) will experience physical death.

Then let's at LEAST differentiate that there is "flesh death" which is unavoidable. And there is also "eternal death." An entirely different animal. But you do understand that when our flesh DIES it is an "ETERNAL DEATH."

The issue in the Bible is not how to avoid physical death, but how to be saved from the second death.

I don't disagree. But you do understand that "in Christ" all things are ours, and that includes the KEY OF DEATH, which He Has.

Death is a power as well. Which of course, GOD CREATED.

Death, as a power, is cast into the LoF. And there will be NO MORE DEATH. The Lake of Fire, the second death, is, in effect, the DEATH of DEATH.

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And why/how can this be so? Because death is "swallowed up" in His Eternal Life.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.

burp...

 

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Sin was spread to all mankind through Adam's disobedience.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5;12

Your trying to deceive these people, of this forum, that through God Himself sin entered the world.

I can see quite clearly that God had absolutely NO long term intentions for the first man, Adam. Sin was quite purposefully deployed to TERMINATE the dust pile. 1 Cor. 15:42-46 shows Gods Intentions were, from the beginning, for a first/natural man, and then, afterwards, a SECOND man, "made" a spirit.

Your positions can bang it's theological head against that wall, but the Intentions of God in these matters won't change. Man, in the natural, was MADE, by God, to terminate. Evil and sin and the DEVILS are the "termination tools" that God MADE to perform that job.

I rebuke you in name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and the spirit of error that is upon you to deceive, to cease teaching this Heresy!

God made all things. There is no way around it. IF you want to "rebuke" me I'd suggest you examine your multiple creator position closely as your positions appear to be under a bit of deception and denial. Polytheism is NOT in my theological portfolio.

 

[JLB]

God made all things. There is no way around it. IF you want to "rebuke" me I'd suggest you examine your multiple creator position closely as your positions appear to be under a bit of deception and denial. Polytheism is NOT in my theological portfolio.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12



More lies and misrepresenting what I said from you.


Did the sin that spread to all mankind come from Adam or from God?



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light. Neither is "a thing" but a lacking of, a dificency. Just as a rainbow is not a real thing, but an illusion, the refracting or dividing of light. 3 things are necessary for the illusion to be seen: 1. bright sunlight 2. suspended droplets of water. 3. proper angle of sight.
Sin is a deficiency, not an addition. If sin is an addition, then, it possible to be sinful and righteous both at the same time. We don't see God creating sin before he rested on the 7th day.

 

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12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Romans 12

Your position claims that GOD HIMSELF, The Creator of 'all things' had absolutely nothing to do with that. I find that position unsupportable.

IF God made and deployed the power of evil to kill the natural man, so it is. If God made and deployed evil to demonstrate His Own Eternal Superior to "all things' Power and Eternal Mercy in doing so, so be it. The God many have is not that great in their eyes. So be it.

More lies and misrepresenting what I said from you.
Did the sin that spread to all mankind come from Adam or from God?

God created "all things." There is no removing Him from anything and everything that transpires in HIS creation, as much as you would care to claim otherwise. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 isn't changing for anyone. I was simply reconciled to those facts. But whether I was or not would also be of God. So I blame no one.

God could make us all see all things in an instant, IF He wanted to.

 

[FreeGrace]

Any time we ascribe another "creator" of anything, we have issues.

Yes, it seem that there are many issues with your posts.

I'm not going there.

Already did.

You think God is not Holy and Powerful enough to make the power of evil HIS servant?

Missing the point entirely. BECAUSE He IS holy, He cannot and will not create evil.

Your view has God pitting Himself against Himself. Does that sound reasonable?

I think otherwise.

A lot of which is against Scripture.

God doesn't need our "personal insulation."

No one is trying to insulate God from anything.

God is far more than the sum of all things in His creation. What is evil to Him but a drop in a bucket?

Evil is everything He is NOT.

The instant your position ascribes a single evil thought to A HOLY ANGEL, they are defiled, internally, and can not BE HOLY, when they are in fact "internally defiled."

Your views do the same thing to Holy God.

Holy Angels don't rotate in and out of Holiness.

Nor does God.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

Great. More citations without any effort to explain what they say or mean.

There is no "therefore." God is far greater than the sum of all things. Your position just carves out a self subscribed God who is not Great Enough to create and use evil for His Own Perfect Purposes is really all that we are dealing with.

In reality, your position simply fails to grasp that Creator God is fully able to create humanity with the ability to create. But certainly not ex nihilio, as God did with the heavens and earth and souls.

And from there your position falls into "multiple creators" because that self subscribed God needs "protection."

Unless one provides some substance to such a charge of "God needing protection", it is nothing more than an empty claim.

I'm not claiming "multiple creators". I just point out the fact that humanity has created lots of things, all because Creator God created them "in His own image", a view that is apparently rejected by your position. But it's biblical, nevertheless.

 

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dirtfarmer here

Cold is the absence of heat and darkness is the absence of light. Neither is "a thing" but a lacking of, a dificency. Just as a rainbow is not a real thing, but an illusion, the refracting or dividing of light. 3 things are necessary for the illusion to be seen: 1. bright sunlight 2. suspended droplets of water. 3. proper angle of sight.
Sin is a deficiency, not an addition. If sin is an addition, then, it possible to be sinful and righteous both at the same time. We don't see God creating sin before he rested on the 7th day.

God 'created' all spirits. Disobedience IS a spirit. Eph. 2:2.

Did GOD do this?

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Anyone who says no isn't reading. That's all.

 

[FreeGrace]

The scripture ain't changing by any man's twisting.

That's correct. No matter how hard one tries.

"The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

Sure. And what the verse DOESN'T say is that the Lord created the wicked to be doomed. Nor that He creates the wicked.