Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

I'd leave off the word 'just'. The Bible DOES view people as people. It's your view that is strange.

We've shared these scriptures many many times. And still, your positions see only people. Your positions are simply not accurate, because there IS more than people going on.

Now, why "positions" do this is quite obvious. Because there IS another party involved.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You say only people. Scripture says their minds are blinded by another entity that is not them. Like the other scriptures do, in Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, 1 John 3:8 and on and on we go. Your positions never one time factoring in the other players in the scriptures and seeing only people.

You think my sight of facts strange? I think your positions are void of the obvious. So, where do we go from here? From you trying quite vainly to completely ignore the "messenger of Satan" in Paul's own flesh, completely REFUSING to see that other player. And then beating up anyone who tries to bring JUDGMENT into the equations of scripture and BELIEVERS.

Round and round you will go, never landing where adverse judgment DOES belong, and DOES apply to "believers" in the now.

So, somehow there is more to 'people' than 'just people', huh. If you're referring to demons, sure, they exist, but they aren't part of people.

They are certainly IN the equations, beyond any doubt. Are they the same as people? Never. When Satan spoke through Peter or entered Judas, there was Satan as a different entity to Peter and Judas. But there were TWO PARTIES walking in the same pair of shoes.

Even when they are indwelling or influencing them. The people are still people. Who need the Savior. Unlike the demons.

Yeah, well, your trying to get the picture. I expect that as you consider the facts for awhile, you'll see that God created all things INCLUDING devils and predetermined to destroy them when their gig is up.

Isaiah 30:
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Tophet: "place of fire"

Who is the fire prepared for? The king of this kingdom:

Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Did you ever read that Satan had a standing army, a LEGION, in one man? How many DEVILS in ONE man? Many. A legion worth. Mark 5:9, Luke 8:20.

And you don't think our positions should factor these sights? Why not? is a question I might ask any such positions. I usually find more interesting reasons beneath the surface equations, in the mind of the carriers of such positions, void of the obvious. Not all in scripture is as it appears on the surface. And it is the "same" in real life.

 

[FreeGrace]

We've shared these scriptures many many times. And still, your positions see only people. Your positions are simply not accurate, because there IS more than people going on.

I've NEVER argued that there is ONLY peple going on.

Now, why "positions" do this is quite obvious. Because there IS another party involved.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You say only people. Scripture says their minds are blinded by another entity that is not them.

Is this really an accusation that I don't believe in Satan, or in his ability to deceive and blind people?? Really??

Your positions never one time factoring in the other players in the scriptures and seeing only people.

If this is a reference to my position on eternal security, then I do see only people. Who are directly and individually responsible and accountable to God for whether they receive the free gift of eternal life. Satan plays NO PART in the salvation of man. He does, though, do lots of things to redirect man from receiving the gift. But that's man's ultimate responsibility.

From you trying quite vainly to completely ignore the "messenger of Satan" in Paul's own flesh, completely REFUSING to see that other player.

Actually, I've thoroughly explained the whole issue of the messenger from Satan, as a thorn in the flesh.

And then beating up anyone who tries to bring JUDGMENT into the equations of scripture and BELIEVERS.

Do you feel "beat up"? Where have I EVER denied that ALL men will face judgment? Believers at the Bema, and unbelievers at the Great White Throne. So I'll accept your apologies for your erroneous claim.

Round and round you will go, never landing where adverse judgment DOES belong, and DOES apply to "believers" in the now.

Please provide a simple and straightforward explanation of what this "adverse judgment" is and how it applies to believers. Oh and also explain why the need for quote marks around the word believers.

They are certainly IN the equations, beyond any doubt.

I have many doubts about what is meant by "equations". What is it?

Are they the same as people? Never. When Satan spoke through Peter or entered Judas, there was Satan as a different entity to Peter and Judas. But there were TWO PARTIES walking in the same pair of shoes.

These 2 parties walking in the same shoes would only refer to demon possessed people. Is that your "equation"?

Yeah, well, your trying to get the picture. I expect that as you consider the facts for awhile, you'll see that God created all things INCLUDING devils and predetermined to destroy them when their gig is up.

Please provide any evidence that God "created devils" from Scripture. What He did create were angels, and after some indeterminable time, rebelled against Him, and became demons/devils.

But I strongly challenge you to provide verses that God created devils.

Isaiah 30:

33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Tophet: "place of fire"

Who is the fire prepared for? The king of this kingdom:

No mention of creating devils here.

Matthew 12:26
And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Did you ever read that Satan had a standing army, a LEGION, in one man? How many DEVILS in ONE man? Many. A legion worth. Mark 5:9, Luke 8:20.

Once again, no mention of God creating devils here.

So, where does the Bible teach that He did?

And you don't think our positions should factor these sights? Why not? is a question I might ask any such positions. I usually find more interesting reasons beneath the surface equations, in the mind of the carriers of such positions, void of the obvious. Not all in scripture is as it appears on the surface. And it is the "same" in real life.

The far better question to ask is where is there ANY evidence for your positions in the Bible? None of the verses quoted say what your position claims.

 

[smaller]

I've NEVER argued that there is ONLY peple going on.

Recapping:
you: Don't need to. It's clear enough. Again, I repeat: He did not make people wicked.

me: You should know well enough by now scripture doesn't see people as "just people." This is how scripture sees people, even if your positional sights don't see it as scripture sees:

The above exchange is you claiming God made "people" wicked. And me looking at the obvious (to me) OTHER PARTIES that are "in" the flesh of man, but are not man.

It is my observation that God DID make the wicked, and that those wicked made, predestined to be made, predestined to be destroyed, are the DEVIL and HIS MESSENGERS.

Not tracking this matter leaves your position only one alternative, and that is potential Satanic salvation, which I delineated to you prior to PROVE or DISCLAIM. There is scriptural proof of Satanic salvation, therefore your position DISCLAIMS, and if so, then the only option remaining is that God made the wicked for the day of evil, and WILL destroy THEM in the final analysis.

So leaving off the other side notes to the above, let's move on.

Cut to the chase on Satanic salvation OR NOT and if THEY were predestined to be made and destroyed and we can either sum this up or examine where your positions are at regarding THEM.

Please provide any evidence that God "created devils" from Scripture. What He did create were angels, and after some indeterminable time, rebelled against Him, and became demons/devils.

We've covered this at length. I can't credibly remove Gods Hands from anything in His Own creation. He made all things, Col. 1:16, made all things for His Pleasure, Rev. 4:11, and upholds 'all things' by the word of His Power, Heb. 1:3. All things in creation were made by Him and all things transpire within His Omnipresence.

Your positions on the other hand seek to REMOVE God from the equations, just like JLB's positions. I have an impossible time doing that credibly in light of the above.

But I strongly challenge you to provide verses that God created devils.

I don't buy "other creator" postures for anything in creation. God IS implicated in it all, one way or another. Just as any common FIRST CAUSE argument "credibly" makes.

Your only alternative is "other creators" and "created things" functioning without Gods Hands in creating them/His ACTIVE Involvement (for or against anything)/Him POWERLESS to stop or UPHOLD anything, in His Own creation.

A GodLESS insistence. Just like JLB's positions.

 

[FreeGrace]

Recapping:
you: Don't need to. It's clear enough. Again, I repeat: He did not make people wicked.

me: You should know well enough by now scripture doesn't see people as "just people." This is how scripture sees people, even if your positional sights don't see it as scripture sees:

The above exchange is you claiming God made "people" wicked.

Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked. They became sinners through rebellion, and per Romans 5, passed on the sinful nature to all people. After creating Adam and the woman, the process of PRO-creation is through human interaction, which God created.

But God does NOT create wicked people. That is unbiblical, which is proven over and over by the LACK of biblical support.

And me looking at the obvious (to me) OTHER PARTIES that are "in" the flesh of man, but are not man.

OK, we all know that in addition to humankind, there are angels, both elect and fallen. Why not rather just say clearly what you're referring to, instead of "other parties"? And we also already know that Satan and fallen angels deceive and blind humans.

What hasn't yet been explained is how any of that relates to eternal security, the subject of another thread.

It is my observation that God DID make the wicked, and that those wicked made, predestined to be made, predestined to be destroyed, are the DEVIL and HIS MESSENGERS.

Wow. So you were there when God created Lucifer??

Not tracking this matter leaves your position only one alternative, and that is potential Satanic salvation

There is no way ever that my position results in any such potential satanic salvation. Utterly impossible. But since that is your conclusion, I'm forced to conclude that either my posts haven't been read, or that there has been zero comprehension of them.

There is scriptural proof of Satanic salvation

If that were so, then quote the verse(s) to support this claim.

Cut to the chase on Satanic salvation OR NOT and if THEY were predestined to be made and destroyed and we can either sum this up or examine where your positions are at regarding THEM.

Until one quotes a verse on this so-called "satanic salvation", I'm not interested in further discussion that I consider totally unbiblical.

I can't credibly remove Gods Hands from anything in His Own creation.

Neither have I. Read my posts.

He made

all things, Col. 1:16, made all things for His Pleasure, Rev. 4:11, and upholds 'all things' by the word of His Power, Heb. 1:3. All things in creation were made by Him and all things transpire within His Omnipresence.

No argument. And none of this supports your claims either.

Your positions on the other hand seek to REMOVE God from the equations, just like JLB's positions. I have an impossible time doing that credibly in light of the above.

Please provide a clear explanation of how my position does this.

Your only alternative is "other creators" and "created things" functioning without Gods Hands in creating them/His ACTIVE Involvement (for or against anything)/Him POWERLESS to stop or UPHOLD anything, in His Own creation.

A GodLESS insistence. Just like JLB's positions.

Please read my posts. Your conclusions are NOT based on what I have posted, that's for sure.

 

[JLB]

There is little use continuing to repeat your demands to blame and accuse only Adam JLB, while simultaneously and completely ignoring the role of The Creator of Adam. That kind of theology won't cut it with me, ever. We can never logically remove The Creator and expect to have credible understandings.

God created "all things." Col. 1:16. "All things" were created for The Creators pleasure. Rev. 4:11. The Creator upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Heb. 1:3.

The instant your positions remove God from the equations, it's no longer christian theology imho. It becomes another kind of religion. Maybe polytheism, maybe pantheism. Maybe both and a whole lot of other.

So, examine your demand above. And I'll ask you WHY you demand to remove GOD?

Only Godless theology makes that kind of demand.

No demands. No accusations.

Just asking you a simple question, based on this scripture.

If you can answer, then please do so.

If you continue, to slander me, and misrepresent what I have said, and what I'm asking you, based on this scripture, then I can only conclude that, what Paul said is true about you are your "doctrine": But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[smaller]

Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked.

Anyone reading about Adam should take Paul's understanding of Adam from 1 Cor. 15:42-46 to see what Adam, the natural man, was all about.

In any cases of sights, Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. As such I see zero basis to slur Adam for any reasons. Or Eve for that matter. But there are a lot of "other things" going on in the account that are not just "Adam and Eve."

They became sinners through rebellion, and per Romans 5, passed on the sinful nature to all people. After creating Adam and the woman, the process of PRO-creation is through human interaction, which God created.

Mark 4:15 is exactly what happened to Adam. When you see and understand that, you won't see just Adam.

 

[smaller]

a. through man
b. through God
JLB

By trying to eliminate God from the equations you entertain a GODless demand. I've dealt with that false equation long enough. I don't bow to GODless equations about 'any thing' in creation or in any "theological subjects." They are all false when doing that.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Remove any 'thing' from that equation and there is a theology FOUL involved.

 

[JLB]

By trying to eliminate God from the equations you entertain a GODless demand.

By trying to eliminate God from the equations you entertain a GODless demand. I've dealt with that false equation long enough. I don't bow to GODless equations about 'any thing' in creation or in any "theological subjects." They are all false when doing that.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Remove any 'thing' from that equation and there is a theology FOUL involved.

No demands. No accusations.

Just asking you a simple question, based on this scripture.

If you can answer, then please do so.

If you continue, to slander me, and misrepresent what I have said, and what I'm asking you, based on this scripture, then I can only conclude that, what Paul said is true about you are your "doctrine": But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[smaller]

No demands. No accusations.

Just asking you a simple question, based on this scripture.

If you can answer, then please do so.

If you continue, to slander me, and misrepresent what I have said, and what I'm asking you, based on this scripture, then I can only conclude that, what Paul said is true about you are your "doctrine": But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:3

It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God

JLB

Nothing happens in Gods creation that HE is not involved in.

Isaiah 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Whatever you might claim 'Adam was' whatever 'Adam was.' Whatever Adam was IS a direct result of Gods creation of same. Whatever 'transpired' from that point onward will always link back to the Creator of same. If you think only Adam created sin, then God still created Adam. There is no way to remove The Manufacturer.

This is termed the 'first cause' claim that christians use to prove creation, but it is also deployed in exercises such as this.

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

We can both read exactly what happened to Adam, right here:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[JLB]

Nothing happens in Gods creation that HE is not involved in.

Isaiah 45:12
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Whatever you might claim 'Adam was' whatever 'Adam was.' Whatever Adam was IS a direct result of Gods creation of same. Whatever 'transpired' from that point onward will always link back to the Creator of same. If you think only Adam created sin, then God still created Adam. There is no way to remove The Manufacturer.

This is termed the 'first cause' claim that christians use to prove creation, but it is also deployed in exercises such as this.

Proverbs 15:3
The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

We can both read exactly what happened to Adam, right here:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yes, God was aware that Adam sinned.

• Does that mean God tempted Adam to sin?

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:13-15


Now that that has been cleared up, please answer the simple question; or just keep avoided the question, and keep talking in circles.


It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, God was aware that Adam sinned.

• Does that mean God tempted Adam to sin?

13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:13-15

The hollow sights your positions continually try to employ is that God, as The Creator of "all things" is not involved and implicated. That can't be the case. Without Gods creation of all things we wouldn't be having the conversation.

Secondly, we know for no uncertain fact that God has bound everyone to disobedience. Romans 11:32. Is Adam included in "everyone?" Yep! Paul tells us very specifically what God BOUND Adam to in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Weakness, corruption, dishonor, in a natural BOUND body DOOMED to die, by GOD, from that binding.

Third, you also see "just and only" Adam in the equations of sin. That is provably not true either. We know sin is of the devil. We know the tempter tempts internally. We know the "law" is for the lawless and sinners, which Satan is as well. 1 Tim. 1:9, 1 John 3:8. We know, even from the Garden, that THE DEVIL was also involved and implicated.

Even GOD, from His Own Mouth, INDICTED the serpent in the events:

Genesis 3:14
And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

None of this was in any way, ANY surprise to God. God made the serpent to do exactly that.

The same 3 components to everything that transpired "in the Word" remain these, to this day:

God
Man
Devils

Removing any of these in any application of scriptures will result in a false/void equation.

Now that that has been cleared up, please answer the simple question; or just keep avoided the question, and keep talking in circles.

It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God
JLB

I know your position can't handle what the scripture says, which we both can read. And we'll see the same 3 components:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Does your question address these 3 components? NOPE. None of the 3 components can be eliminated, and we do see FIRST CAUSE assuredly in play.

Your position constructed a Godless equation. Nothing more. It's not even worth bothering with. You can repeat it til you're blue in the face. It will never work without God in the equations.

 

[JLB]

The hollow sights your positions continually try to employ is that God, as The Creator of "all things" is not involved and implicated.

This is a bald face lie.

Please show me the post where I said this.

The Creator is indeed involved, as He paid the price for our sins, so we could be reconciled to the Father, by faith in Jesus Christ.


So far, all you have done is make a bunch of accusations against me that are untrue, and you can't answer a simple question.

It's a very simple question, that is based upon the language from this scripture.

• If everything you keep saying is so true, then pick b, and and boldly tell us that sin entered the world through God.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12


Based on this scripture: Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

As I read and study scripture I see sin as a lack of ability. Sin is not an addition to God's creation, but a subtraction from God's creation, a deficiency. Man, after the willful sin of Adam is not measuring up to the standard in which he was created. He lacks the ability to obey God and that is man's choice. Not something that God chose for man.

We know from scripture that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Since God has control over the dust of the earth, which he made man from, what makes people think that God could not have caused Adam to be changed in the moment and twinkling of the eye as stated in 1 Corinthians 15. Genesis 5:24 states that Enoch walked with God and was not for God took him. Is this the forerunner of the rapture?

Is God not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow? God doesn't Change, he is always the same.

As JLB has stated by scripture: Sin entered the world by man. If Adam had refused to obey Eve and obeyed God would he have died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit?

 

[Jim Parker]

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God

answer: a. through man

 

[Jim Parker]

If Adam had refused to obey Eve and obeyed God would he have died spiritually the day he ate of the fruit?

God told him not to eat that fruit.
If Adam obeyed God, he would not have eaten the fruit.

 

[Jim Parker]

But God does NOT create wicked people. That is unbiblical, which is proven over and over by the LACK of biblical support.

Good points.
God created man as good.
There is no evidence in the Bible that God ever created a wicked person.

 

[smaller]

This is a bald face lie.

Please show me the post where I said this.

The Creator is indeed involved

Then you appear to answer your own question. B!

 

[smaller]

Good points.
God created man as good.
There is no evidence in the Bible that God ever created a wicked person.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

You might claim that disobedience isn't wicked. I would strongly disagree. Disobedience is the worst wickedness that exists in all of creation.

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[JLB]

answer: a. through man

Thank you Jim.

It's very simple. Sin entered the world through man's disobedience.

Then you appear to answer your own question. B!

More lying, and misrepresenting from you.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12


Based on this scripture: Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God

...just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,



JLB

 

[JLB]

Then you appear to answer your own question. B!

The Creator is indeed involved, as He paid the price for our sins, so we could be reconciled to the Father, by faith in Jesus Christ.

His involvement is righteousness.

Setting things right in the perfect world He created, by redeeming a fallen race.



JLB