Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

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That is some of the sorriest excuse for exegesis I have ever seen.
When God created Adam, Adam was good.

You might try reading Paul's very detailed EXPOSE' about Adam, the natural man in 1 Cor. 15:42-46 and THEN get back to me.

Once their flesh was infected with sinful lust through disobedience,

Adam and Eve did NOT create their "own" disobedience. Disobedience is described as A SPIRIT. Eph. 2:2. And that spirit NOT a man, but the prince of the power of the air.

With Adam all we have to do is READ and understand Mark 4:15 and we'll see instantly what happened to Adam and that is not "just and only" about Adam "creating" his own disobedience. It's the same thing that happens to all people as depicted by Paul, here:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now, did Adam bind himself to disobedience OR was Paul correct in his assessments that it was GOD who DID SO!? I don't buy Garden variety christian fairy tales cooked up by the freewill camps.

Did God "create" the spirit of disobedience and MAKE the natural flesh of all man, with the exception of His Own Son, subject to it's inhabitation? Beyond any question, this is a scriptural fact.

Half of christian believerdom thinks that there are multiple millions of mini-creators of their own spirit of disobedience. It's nothing more than polytheism posing as christianity.

 

[Chopper]

ANd worth at least a billion dollars!

Wow!! Thanks Buddy.

 

[FreeGrace]

The fact IS God Himself created this opposition:

No, there's a very big difference between creating evil and permitting evil.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Not one thing in this post supports your claim that God had made all the choices for man."

Isaiah 66:4
I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not.

This verse in no way supports the notion that God makes all the choices for man. In fact, there is NOTHING about God making choices in that verse. Nor any other verse.

 

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No, there's a very big difference between creating evil and permitting evil.

IF God, the Creator of "all things" which by right of this encompassing term, "all things" includes the creation of evil power (Isaiah 45:7, Col. 1:16, Hab. 4:9, Rev. 4:11, the creation of the knowledge of evil (Gen. 2:9), the deployments of retributive evil (too many scriptural citings to list) uses evil for good, then He is Perfectly Justified for doing so.

IF the spirit of disobedience (Eph. 2:2), the anti-Christ spirits (1 John 2:18, 1 John 4:3), are, at the end of the exercises of this evil/wicked age-generation, permanently put away-discarded in the Lake of Fire, as a Predetermined matter, again, God is Perfectly Justified in doing so.

In the meantime evil is HIS servant, as "all things" are, simply because He Is Greater than the sum of all things.

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"Not one thing in this post supports your claim that God had made all the choices for man."

This verse in no way supports the notion that God makes all the choices for man. In fact, there is NOTHING about God making choices in that verse. Nor any other verse.

God can not be logically removed from ANY actions or any "things" that transpire in His creation. Everything IS under His Divine Purview, Dominion and Control.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[dirtfarmer]

God can not be logically removed from ANY actions or any "things" that transpire in His creation. Everything IS under His Divine Purview, Dominion and Control.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If "God cannot be logically removed from any actions or any "things" that transpire in his creation," then when I go to the bathroom, it was God that made me go and not natural body functions? Does God cause people to get drunk or smoke pot? Does God cause people to lie about being sick and not going to work? According to you, He must because he controls every move of every human being. Is that what you are espousing?

 

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hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If "God cannot be logically removed from any actions or any "things" that transpire in his creation," then when I go to the bathroom, it was God that made me go and not natural body functions? Does God cause people to get drunk or smoke pot? Does God cause people to lie about being sick and not going to work? According to you, He must because he controls every move of every human being. Is that what you are espousing?

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

If "God cannot be logically removed from any actions or any "things" that transpire in his creation," then when I go to the bathroom, it was God that made me go and not natural body functions? Does God cause people to get drunk or smoke pot? Does God cause people to lie about being sick and not going to work? According to you, He must because he controls every move of every human being. Is that what you are espousing?

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Make of it what you can or will. In either cases of sights, denial or acceptance, it's from Him, regardless.

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

True spirituality is living by God's revealed will from scripture, not speculating about His hidden will. There are things that God has decreed: "The soul that sinneth it shall die"; this is spiritual death. God allows whatever happens to happen, but he does not cause it to happen. Example: Murder, sexual immorality, theft, and etc. God does not cause these to happen. Gods revealed will tells us what should or should not happen, but He doesn't cause what should not happen to happen. Why would he provide a way to be cleansed from sins if he caused them to happen. Would that not be "doing the will of God". Is God unjust in that we do his will by committing sexual sins or murder and then condemn us for doing his will? If that is the god you serve, I don't want to know him. The God I serve has compassion on me even though I go against his will, he has provided for me to be brought back into fellowship with him.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Make of it what you can or will. In either cases of sights, denial or acceptance, it's from Him, regardless.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You need to read the rest of Acts 17. In the next verse it states: "and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" We cannot go beyond the limits that God has set but that doesn't mean that he controls our every move. We have the freedom to either believe his report or not believe, but the consequences of our actions he has reserved for himself. We do not determine if we go to heaven or hell, it is God that determines that based upon our belief or non belief.

 

[FreeGrace]

IF God, the Creator of "all things" which by right of this encompassing term, "all things" includes the creation of evil power (Isaiah 45:7, Col. 1:16, Hab. 4:9, Rev. 4:11, the creation of the knowledge of evil (Gen. 2:9)

No, it doesn't, and none of the verses cited say that God created evil power. [Edited. Staff]

The holy, wise God of creation is perfect. He will have nothing to do with evil, and required that all sin, which comes from evil, be atoned for at the cross.

In the meantime evil is HIS servant, as "all things" are, simply because He Is Greater than the sum of all things.

[Edited. Staff]

Apparently your Bible has this verse removed, then:
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. James 1:13

Since it is FACT that God can neither be tempted BY evil, nor tempt anyone, it doesn't connect to claim that God is the creator of evil. Not only does it NOT make sense, it is totally unbiblical.

 

[FreeGrace]

God can not be logically removed from ANY actions or any "things" that transpire in His creation.

Wanna bet? If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil.

Instead, we read that Lucifer was created perfect, and then evil was found in him.
Isa 28:15 - “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Everything IS under His Divine Purview, Dominion and Control.

This statement does NOT either support or prove your claims. The fact that your view dismisses His permission for evil to occur is obvious.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

And...another verse that does not support your claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Make of it what you can or will. In either cases of sights, denial or acceptance, it's from Him, regardless.

Yep. The claim is that God causes evil.

But what your view then cannot explain is why God holds mankind accountable for what He Himself causes.

 

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hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

True spirituality is living by God's revealed will from scripture, not speculating about His hidden will. There are things that God has decreed: "The soul that sinneth it shall die"; this is spiritual death.

You should know by now how much I detest hypocrisy and lies. There is the reality of the DEATH we all faced, the moment The Spirit of Christ came into us by faith in Him:

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Then Paul takes us on a little REALITY walk about sin in our flesh and what IT does that results in this DEATH, so we learn not to LIE:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I love the smell of honesty and DEATH in the morning. It is a pleasure to my soul. 1 Cor. 15:31.

God allows whatever happens to happen, but he does not cause it to happen.

Oh really? Did Gods LAW not arouse and empower the sin in your flesh today, reveal evil's presence, so you can hate yourself? Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Luke 14:26, John 12:25.

Try it sometime. You'll learn to LIKE it, this Divine Hatred, meant to KILL us, that HE LIVES our stead.

Example: Murder, sexual immorality, theft, and etc. God does not cause these to happen.

Well of course He Does. Here is what happens where the Word is sown. Mark 4:15. Do you not SEE this internal activity in your own flesh/mind?!

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28.

Yes, God did SET before us, EVIL: Deuteronomy 30:15 IS an internal reality that God Himself has SET. All we have to do is look inside the flesh box, honestly, and it WILL be found.

Gods revealed will tells us what should or should not happen, but He doesn't cause what should not happen to happen.

I am not the sort that removes God from "activity" in ALL THINGS in His Own creation. That "detached view" is quite GODLESS in my eyes. Sorry.

Why would he provide a way to be cleansed from sins if he caused them to happen.

Nobody is made "sinless" in this present flesh life. Where did you come up with that idea? It's not even remotely possible. Indwelling sin and it's ACTIONS within our flesh, INTERNALLY, that is "no more I" Romans 7:17 & 20 IS the reality of our flesh, as is evil, present with us. Romans 7:21. Jesus didn't make any believer 'sinless.' HE DOES however make Apostles and "some" Disciples honest about these matters. And others He Purposefully LOCKS OUT.

Would that not be "doing the will of God". Is God unjust in that we do his will by committing sexual sins or murder and then condemn us for doing his will? If that is the god you serve, I don't want to know him. The God I serve has compassion on me even though I go against his will, he has provided for me to be brough back into fellowship with him.

IF we even THINK a single strand of an EVIL THOUGHT, which we do, daily, because of the above facts, we are defiled. That's the reality of our life.

And from this we LEARN what "unmerited Grace" and "Eternal Mercy" by faith in Christ is really all about.

 

[smaller]

Wanna bet? If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil.

I'm not going to keep entertaining replays when more than ample scriptural citings have already been provided for us to mutually engage in. You are engaging in a false charge, that it is MY claim.

The claim of SCRIPTURE is that God created ALL THINGS. If you feel it entertaining to yourself to claim otherwise, have at it.

Col. 1:16 and Rev. 4:11 is scriptural reality regarding these matters.

Those who want to entertain "other and multiple creators" do so by Gods Deceptions upon the evil present with them. So I have no cause to blame, when these things ALSO, are a Divine Working.

1 Cor. 15:56 is a working Divine Reality. And yes, God MADE it to be that way.

 

[dirtfarmer]

You should know by now how much I detest hypocrisy and lies. There is the reality of the DEATH we all faced, the moment The Spirit of Christ came into us by faith in Him:

Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Then Paul takes us on a little REALITY walk about sin in our flesh and what IT does that results in this DEATH, so we learn not to LIE:

Romans 7:
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

I love the smell of honesty and DEATH in the morning. It is a pleasure to my soul. 1 Cor. 15:31.


Oh really? Did Gods LAW not arouse and empower the sin in your flesh today, reveal evil's presence, so you can hate yourself? Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Luke 14:26, John 12:25.

Try it sometime. You'll learn to LIKE it, this Divine Hatred, meant to KILL us, that HE LIVES our stead.



Well of course He Does. Here is what happens where the Word is sown. Mark 4:15. Do you not SEE this internal activity in your own flesh/mind?!

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28.

Yes, God did SET before us, EVIL: Deuteronomy 30:15 IS an internal reality that God Himself has SET. All we have to do is look inside the flesh box, honestly, and it WILL be found.



I am not the sort that removes God from "activity" in ALL THINGS in His Own creation. That "detached view" is quite GODLESS in my eyes. Sorry.



Nobody is made "sinless" in this present flesh life. Where did you come up with that idea? It's not even remotely possible. Indwelling sin and it's ACTIONS within our flesh, INTERNALLY, that is "no more I" Romans 7:17 & 20 IS the reality of our flesh, as is evil, present with us. Romans 7:21. Jesus didn't make any believer 'sinless.' HE DOES however make Apostles and "some" Disciples honest about these matters. And others He Purposefully LOCKS OUT.



IF we even THINK a single strand of an EVIL THOUGHT, which we do, daily, because of the above facts, we are defiled. That's the reality of our life.

And from this we LEARN what "unmerited Grace" and "Eternal Mercy" by faith in Christ is really all about.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I hear what your mouth is saying, but it doesn't ring true the testimony of scripture. You need to go back 2 verses from Romans 6:4 to Romans 6:2 " God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into his death?
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 " For he that is dead is freed form sin."

 

[smaller]

Wanna bet? If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil.

Instead, we read that Lucifer was created perfect, and then evil was found in him.

That's only your claim. The scripture actually says perfect "in thy ways." What are DEVILS WAYS but perfectly EVIL?

TO INFER God Like Perfect to the devil is NOT what is being shown. Not even close.

Jesus in John 8:44 tells us plainly, that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, ABODE NOT IN THE Truth (AT ANY TIME PAST), is the father of lies, and that no truth is in him.

So, yeah: A PERFECT DEVIL, created by God, as 'all things' are like wise created. All powers, all principalities, all , all things.

Colossians 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Does this include THESE bad actors? Of course!

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Consider it courtesy of a Divine personal wrestling match that God Himself puts His children UNDER:

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Hebrews 5:14
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

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hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here
hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

I hear what your mouth is saying, but it doesn't ring true the testimony of scripture. You need to go back 2 verses from Romans 6:4 to Romans 6:2 " God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:3 "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ was baptized into his death?
Romans 6:6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 " For he that is dead is freed form sin."

When we "understand" as Paul shows us, that the sin dwelling in our flesh, which IS a spiritual adverse reality, is NO MORE I, Romans 7:17 & 20, you'll understand and stop trying to justify it or claim it's not so, because it IS so.

The Spirit is 'actively' against and contrary to the flesh, precisely for this reason. Gal. 5:17. And yes, God does blind the flesh to this reality, so it can not SPEAK THE TRUTH of it.

The body is dead, because of sin. Romans 8:10. The indwelling sin and evil present with us IS under the CONDEMNATION of Christ. Romans 8:3. Some don't care to look at this reality. Some will find HIS LIFE in that CONDEMNATION.

 

[dirtfarmer]

When we "understand" as Paul shows us, that the sin dwelling in our flesh, which IS a spiritual adverse reality, is NO MORE I, Romans 7:17 & 20, you'll understand and stop trying to justify it or claim it's not so, because it IS so.

The Spirit is 'actively' against and contrary to the flesh, precisely for this reason. Gal. 5:17. And yes, God does blind the flesh to this reality, so it can not SPEAK THE TRUTH of it.

The body is dead, because of sin. Romans 8:10. The indwelling sin and evil present with us IS under the CONDEMNATION of Christ. Romans 8:3. Some don't care to look at this reality. Some will find HIS LIFE in that CONDEMNATION.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Read the last phrase of Romans 8:10 " but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Galatians 5:16 " For I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
Galatians 5:24 " And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh( past tense) with the affections and lust."
Galatians 5:25 " If ye live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

What does Paul state in Romans 5:11, by Jesus Christ we have now received the atonement." We are no longer a fleshly being, because the flesh has been dealt with by Christ. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus and the sin nature(old man) has been made powerless by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

 

[smaller]

What does Paul state in Romans 5:11, by Jesus Christ we have now received the atonement." We are no longer a fleshly being, because the flesh has been dealt with by Christ. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus and the sin nature(old man) has been made powerless by Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

There is a marked "difference" between a believer and "no more I."

"No more I" and 'evil present' (Romans 7:17-21) with us does however remain under Christ's condemnation. There is no avoiding it.

Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

But since the flesh still has these very real internal issues, it does remain factually "against" and "contrary to" the Spirit. As such it will automatically DENY that this is the case. It can not agree with the Spirit because it is factually adverse to the Spirit, and thus can only LIE. Gal. 5:17.

Any believer who even tries to speak these facts to their own flesh WILL feel the "resistance" of the flesh to the Spirit's honest exposure of evil present with them. Particularly when they eventually see that sin is in fact 'of the devil.' 1 John 3:8. Then the wrestling match is GAME ON. Eph. 6:11-12. Because somebody just 'woke up.' Romans 13:11-12.