Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[SHINY4UJESUS]

Alright folks, let us step back from each side of this coin for a moment, take a deep breath, count to ten...and prepare to listen as opposed to in advance preparing a counter to contend against each other. There are bound to be differences in opinion and perspective, and let us be honest; God grants revelation and insight to His children as He sees fit. Not everyone will have as thorough an understanding as another might; this is not a belittlement mind you-this is simple fact. See the Parable of the Talents if you wish. Note how not every disciple penned letters included in the Gospels. Recall how no scripture is given "to private interpretation,"; meaning since it is a dynamic, living and active Spirit in and of itself...it may have several applications and "meanings," underlying a defining truth.
Allow me to present a different perspective; neither against free will, nor against pre-destination because these things are not mutually exclusive; but are in unison.
1) In order to believe in God truly and authentically; one must be able to believe in all aspects of who He is, what He has done, and what we can be confident He will continue to do until the day of Christ's return. As such, are we not told that nothing happens outside the knowledge and will of a ruling Father in heaven? Folks, God IS and WAS and FOREVER WILL BE; He is both Omnipresent and Omniscient. Does scripture not say that we were "foreordained," "called," and "created for," specific purposes? How can one be any of these things, in any sense without foreknowledge and intentional planning/institution. Whether one wishes to see it, accept it, believe it or refute it: the truth remains the truth...God knew us before the world's creation, and knows our journey as well as its end; from before a time when time itself existed. So the first key to remember is God's infinite and all knowing nature.
2) God has created us in His image, and granted us free will; correct? Well can I contend that God also has free will, to do as He pleases? God knew in advance every outcome of every roll of every person ever; literally and figuratively; before he even selected them for birth to mom "A" and dad "B" in place C, year 10,000+ BC to the end of days; in the first place. Imagine the pains of dealing with billions of free wills and selecting them with the right roles and environments for those free wills to altogether make up the exact sum necessary, and leading to the desired end result in specifically the time appointed. God chose specifically everyone for specifically the right set of circumstances to unfold in view of the free will choices they would make. Due to free will, we have forced God not only to allow us to sin, to rebel, to turn away, to be prey to deception, temptations of all sorts, etc.; but confined Him to acceding to a plan where hurting others, deceiving others, destroying lives, all must be used altogether to ensure the proper end result. WE have complete free will, but God knew that long before we were born into this world.

He could easily have made everyone "Bob from Jersey," if He wanted to. He did not do that though. Instead He made everyone an individual, knowing in advance every sin, every evil thought, every dark intention they would allow to rule them at times; knowing in advance how many people might be hurt or killed; knowing in advance who were truly turned towards Him in sincerity and who are blind to their own spiritual poverty. Due to free will and our choices, we have literally dictated God's founding actions in our own creation preceding our very existence; but Praise the Lord Almighty He found a way in Jesus to give everyone an open door home!

It is not God who is evil for predestination; this is a highest form of direct affrontery towards God to blame God for our own actions. It is we who are prone to evil and sin; thus forcing God's hands to place individuals in situations much akin to Job's unique story. Because in our free will, ever since Adam and Eve took the first fatal bites; we as a human race have perpetually ran back for another bite. Given our nature God had to place folks in situations knowing they would be subject to spiritual attack, who would be allowed to have illnesses, diseases, and tremendous personal loss/tragedy/suffering at times. This was the whole reason for Christ in the first place; as none of us (ever,) could have made ourselves justified, saved, redeemed, consecrated, or welcome in God's throne room.

Let us be intentional folks. Our free wills were already planned for, so by all means; Proceed! Just let us be aware where our intentions reside; we have an obligation to speak truth, and to love others enough to hold them back from staggering towards death, eh? We can make a tremendous impact; not on the grand scheme of things mind you...that is also pre-determined...but on lives while we are here! Given free will we also have the ability to "be salt and light," to LITERALLY follow in Christ's illuminated footsteps in seeking to restore those who are fallen away from the Kingdom. Again, let us be intentional with our free wills knowing that these things were predestined. None of our free will decisions would have been made if we were not made to begin with. By merely consenting to our very birth, God was pre-designating His pre-destination in spite of our free will...LOL. If it wasn't in His plan, do you not think He could have instead made "you," Joe from Long Beach,CA...or Bernice from the Sudan? Or simply chosen not to make "you."
No, the fact of the matter is: predestination is not only in agreement with free will..it is necessary due to it. One can continue to contend one side or the other if one wishes; but both sides have merit-able basis for their views, and scriptural accuracy. I simply hope that we can all look deeper, and truly seek God if these things are so. Try every spirit we are told. Test the spirits we are told. Read, pray, and meditate if you must; but I quite assure you folks; free will and pre-destination walk hand in hand in the orchestrated dance of life until we see Jesus return! Little sense arguing about what are not contrary to each other.

 

[williamt]

There's a difference between Predestination and Double Predestination. Just to bring this to attention, because I haven't read anyone address it yet.

God bless,
William

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

Double pre-destination? I am not sure I have heard of such. If this is a sarcastic implication to the phrase I used above," God was pre-designating His pre-destination," I will concede in advance that this is an insufficient terminology for what was being expressed. I simply am having an issue translating the idea into context basically. The truth I am revealing is that the very act of God being acceptable to a man's or woman's very birth on earth; this proves predestination alone. Since God already knew which way the dice roll in every circumstance; those free will decisions were thus both planned and intended when Father formed each and every person; in order for all things to come together properly. Certain people at certain times, in certain eras, with certain abilities and disabilities, with certain character requirements; knowing that it would not be He...but they that would freely choose to turn away and sin. Imagine, a Father so loving He grants us free will; but also sacrifices The Good Son, Jesus Christ...to free us all from the stain, penalty and power of the sins we invest our free will in. This is pre-destination. it was necessary or our free will would have led us into destruction. This way, even in spite of our free will, God uses both its disadvantages and advantages to establish a scenario jusssst right...so all things lead to the proper eventual end result. This is a very deep and dynamic concept; and is difficult to compartmentalize concisely without really delving into each individual element and develop the perspective "as a whole," in light of the theme these elements point to. Its basic cause and effect I suppose. Cause: the application of our God-given free will. Effect: Pre-destination is necessary then to ensure all free will choices add up to the "total sum," of events necessary to bring about a favorable result. LOL. Otherwise it would be our free will in control and not God. Instead God is in control by consenting to our existence, knowing which way "our dice would roll," each and every time.

It just seems to me vain to quibble over one side or the other when they are equally critical factors contingent upon the other in order for everything to work out the way it must. But hey, we are all the same team either way. If folks don't agree I ain't mad at 'em! At least folks here are passionate for God and for truth. That is the more critical element.

 

[williamt]

Double pre-destination? I am not sure I have heard of such. If this is a sarcastic implication to the phrase I used above," God was pre-designating His pre-destination," I will concede in advance that this is an insufficient terminology for what was being expressed. I simply am having an issue translating the idea into context basically. The truth I am revealing is that the very act of God being acceptable to a man's or woman's very birth on earth; this proves predestination alone. Since God already knew which way the dice roll in every circumstance; those free will decisions were thus both planned and intended when Father formed each and every person; in order for all things to come together properly. Certain people at certain times, in certain eras, with certain abilities and disabilities, with certain character requirements; knowing that it would not be He...but they that would freely choose to turn away and sin. Imagine, a Father so loving He grants us free will; but also sacrifices The Good Son, Jesus Christ...to free us all from the stain, penalty and power of the sins we invest our free will in. This is pre-destination. it was necessary or our free will would have led us into destruction. This way, even in spite of our free will, God uses both its disadvantages and advantages to establish a scenario jusssst right...so all things lead to the proper eventual end result. This is a very deep and dynamic concept; and is difficult to compartmentalize concisely without really delving into each individual element and develop the perspective "as a whole," in light of the theme these elements point to. Its basic cause and effect I suppose. Cause: the application of our God-given free will. Effect: Pre-destination is necessary then to ensure all free will choices add up to the "total sum," of events necessary to bring about a favorable result. LOL. Otherwise it would be our free will in control and not God. Instead God is in control by consenting to our existence, knowing which way "our dice would roll," each and every time.

It just seems to me vain to quibble over one side or the other when they are equally critical factors contingent upon the other in order for everything to work out the way it must. But hey, we are all the same team either way. If folks don't agree I ain't mad at 'em! At least folks here are passionate for God and for truth. That is the more critical element.

Well, predestination has been the subject of doctrine for two thousand years. I'm sure though that despite not having heard of it before, many people will dig their heels in, defending their presuppositions without consideration of the doctrines of Predestination that have been refined for some two thousand years throughout church history.

I am not speaking only to you, but to everyone that has for the first time considered such doctrine. I'd recommend learning about the doctrine and withholding your own opinions until you actually understand what it is that you're opposing.

God bless,
William

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

Right man I feel you. Some have grown very accustomed to traditions and thus defend those traditions perhaps a bit zealously. I would remind us of "Saul," before he was "Paul," who was very zealous, and truly dedicated to God; with a militant fervor for the reverence of our Father in heaven. However, he eventually saw that while his information was not incorrect; neither was it whole yet. Just so, folks have properly directed heart, a true sincerity, just missing a factor or two that should be considered. however, and more to your point; we do well to take things from a wide perspective; to view not only the evidence for our position, but that which my be otherwise. Let us not seek in our hearts to have "the right view," but the "complete view," this is the only way to be thoroughly grounded in truth.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil."

I'm not going to keep entertaining replays when more than ample scriptural citings have already been provided for us to mutually engage in. You are engaging in a false charge, that it is MY claim.

The claim of SCRIPTURE is that God created ALL THINGS. If you feel it entertaining to yourself to claim otherwise, have at it.

In your many claims regarding that God created all things, you've included evil in that, so your claim that I am engaging in a false charge is false itself.

So I have no cause to blame, when these things ALSO, are a Divine Working.

1 Cor. 15:56 is a working Divine Reality. And yes, God MADE it to be that way.

OK, let's take a look at 1 Cor 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

So, instead of simply citing a verse, one should at the very least explain how the cited verse is even related to what is being claimed. I see no relevance between the cited verse and any of your claims.

Jesus Christ defeated death by His resurrection. And, yes, that WAS a "divine working".

So, just to be clear (or try to), please answer the question:
Do you believe that God created evil?

 

[JLB]

Since God already knew which way the dice roll in every circumstance; those free will decisions were thus both planned and intended when Father formed each and every person; in order for all things to come together properly.

From what I read in the scriptures, I would say it could read like this:

Since God already knew which way the dice roll in every circumstance; those free will decisions were thus foreseen and planned, according to His foreknowledge, when Father formed each and every person; in order for all things to come together properly.


Would do you think?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil."

In your many claims regarding that God created all things, you've included evil in that, so your claim that I am engaging in a false charge is false itself.


OK, let's take a look at 1 Cor 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

So, instead of simply citing a verse, one should at the very least explain how the cited verse is even related to what is being claimed. I see no relevance between the cited verse and any of your claims.

Jesus Christ defeated death by His resurrection. And, yes, that WAS a "divine working".

So, just to be clear (or try to), please answer the question:
Do you believe that God created evil?

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil."

You keep claiming it to be "my position." I can read that 'all things' were/are created by our Creator. What is it you don't understand?

In your many claims regarding that God created all things, you've included evil in that, so your claim that I am engaging in a false charge is false itself.

And you've "excluded" evil from "all things." You think the Creator needs your self subscribed protection? I don't. All things are all inclusive.

OK, let's take a look at 1 Cor 15:56 - The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law

So, instead of simply citing a verse, one should at the very least explain how the cited verse is even related to what is being claimed. I see no relevance between the cited verse and any of your claims.

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

Jesus Christ defeated death by His resurrection. And, yes, that WAS a "divine working".

The power of death remains upon the flesh of all mankind. [Edited. Staff]The flesh IS slated to taste DEATH, period. Christ has NOT taken that away.

So, just to be clear (or try to), please answer the question:
Do you believe that God created evil?

I believe God created "all things" without ANY exception. That IS the scripture record, not "my" record. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's only your claim. The scripture actually says perfect "in thy ways." What are DEVILS WAYS but perfectly EVIL?

Lucifer wasn't called "the devil" until AFTER he rebelled. So your attempt to twist the verse out of its truth fails.

“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you." Exe 28:15

The word "until" is significant. Until he rebelled, he WAS blameless.

TO INFER God Like Perfect to the devil is NOT what is being shown. Not even close.

Please re-phrase this sentence so that I can decipher what is being meant.

Jesus in John 8:44 tells us plainly, that the devil was a murderer from the beginning, ABODE NOT IN THE Truth (AT ANY TIME PAST), is the father of lies, and that no truth is in him.

Is this a claim that Lucifer was a murder at the time of his creation?? Why can't Jesus be referring to the "beginning" of the human race? In fact, is there any evidence that angels die? No. So the word "murder" can only refer to humans.

 

[JLB]

You keep claiming it to be "my position." I can read that 'all things' were/are created by our Creator. What is it you don't understand?

Do you believe human beings and angels have the ability to choose between good and evil?


15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:15-17


JLB

 

[smaller]

There's a difference between Predestination and Double Predestination. Just to bring this to attention, because I haven't read anyone address it yet.

God bless,
William

Do tell me William, if you see DOUBLE predestination, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I see one predestined to eternal life. And one predestined to eternal damnation.

 

[JLB]

Job 12:16
With him is strength and wisdom: the deceived and the deceiver are his.

All things are His.

Where in this verse does it say God created person or being and forced him to deceive?

 

[JLB]

Do tell me William, if you see DOUBLE predestination, here:

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I see one predestined to eternal life. And one predestined to eternal damnation.

the messenger of Satan was sent to buffet Paul.

Paul had to choose to "finish the race" and "keep the faith", in spite of this "buffeting" [physical beating from those influenced by Satan to stop Paul].

This is a good example of Paul's tenacity, self control [a fruit of the Spirit] and patient persevering under persecution.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Do you believe human beings and angels have the ability to choose between good and evil?

Absolutely not. A Holy Angel is exactly that. Holy. And a wicked/evil angel is the exact opposite. The instant you ascribe an EVIL THOUGHT to a Holy Angel, you have imposed DEFILING into them. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

There is no such things IN the Holy.

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:15-17

JLB

Does God have the knowledge of both good and evil?

Gen. 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We should be able to recognize that when God Breathed life into Adam, that came INTO the body of Adam.

 

[smaller]

All things are His.

Brilliant deduction.

Where in this verse does it say God created person or being and forced him to deceive?

God made the heart of man. How was that heart made?

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

 

[JLB]

Absolutely not. A Holy Angel is exactly that. Holy. And a wicked/evil angel is the exact opposite. The instant you ascribe an EVIL THOUGHT to a Holy Angel, you have imposed DEFILING into them. Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

There is no such things IN the Holy.

How did the wicked/evil angel become that way?

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

This says Lucifer was created perfect in his ways, until...

Are you attempting to teach that God created Lucifer perfect in his ways, then turned around and decided to force him to have iniquity in his heart?



JLB

 

[smaller]

the messenger of Satan was sent to buffet Paul.

Paul had to choose to "finish the race" and "keep the faith", in spite of this "buffeting" [physical beating from those influenced by Satan to stop Paul].

This is a good example of Paul's tenacity, self control [a fruit of the Spirit] and patient persevering under persecution.

JLB

And your position always fails when it encounters the fact that the opposition is built into us.

Romans 7:
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The refrain of the works for salvation folk is this: What?! Who?! Me?! I ain't got no EVIL PRESENT with me.

 

[JLB]

God made the heart of man. How was that heart made?

The heart of man was made good.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”...31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:27-28,31

• Man choose to do evil.
• God did not force man to choose to do evil.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If that is true, there should be verses that support your claim that God created evil."

You keep claiming it to be "my position." I can read that 'all things' were/are created by our Creator.

We all can read that God created all things. What is your point?

What is it you don't understand?

I think "all things" involve people, angels, etc. Evil isn't a "thing". Therefore, the statement that God created all things doesn't include evil.

Jesus told us where evil comes from: “But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man.s Matt 18:15

Evil isn't created. But it comes from the heart.

And you've "excluded" evil from "all things."

Correct. Because evil is not a thing. Try to prove otherwise.

You think the Creator needs your self subscribed protection?

Why would I think this [edited. staff]?

All things are all inclusive.

Actually, words DO mean things. And there has been no attempt on your side to defend your position against James 1:13, which essentially supports the OPPOSITE of your view. God doesn't tempt, nor is tempted. Therefore, being a HOLY God, He cannot and did not create evil.

I wonder why the idea that Creator God cannot create humans with the ability to create has any credence.

I believe that Creator God created mankind with the ability to create things. Was not Adam (human race) created "in His image"? Of course he was. I have no problem with the fact that humans can create.

The power of death remains upon the flesh of all mankind.

I'm truly sorry if that is your state of being. But Jesus Christ REMOVED the power of death for me.

Heb 2:14 - Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil

Therefore, the power of death does NOT remain upon "all mankind" as claimed. The claim is false.

You can make any claims you please about it. One sided statement, obviously. The flesh IS slated to taste DEATH, period. Christ has NOT taken that away.

Why would anyone argue about physical death? Of course we all (minus a very few humans) will experience physical death. The issue in the Bible is not how to avoid physical death, but how to be saved from the second death.