Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JLB]

Your position claims that GOD HIMSELF, The Creator of 'all things' had absolutely nothing to do with that. I find that position unsupportable.

IF God made and deployed the power of evil to kill the natural man, so it is. If God made and deployed evil to demonstrate His Own Eternal Superior to "all things' Power and Eternal Mercy in doing so, so be it. The God many have is not that great in their eyes. So be it.


God created "all things." There is no removing Him from anything and everything that transpires in HIS creation, as much as you would care to claim otherwise. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 isn't changing for anyone. I was simply reconciled to those facts. But whether I was or not would also be of God. So I blame no one.

God could make us all see all things in an instant, IF He wanted to.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[smaller]

Yes, it seem that there are many issues with your posts.

Scripture steps on some false toes. So what?

Missing the point entirely. BECAUSE He IS holy, He cannot and will not create evil.

I might consider that God Is Holy Enough to create 'all things,' use them, make 'all things' serve His Purposes, and STILL be Divinely Perfectly Holy over the whole lot.

Holy that.

Your view has God pitting Himself against Himself. Does that sound reasonable?

So sez you. I see no conflict in Divine Superiority over "all things."

A lot of which is against Scripture.

IF I had to fall into multiple creator postures to support God, I'd give it up.

I don't know why it's so hard for any of you to see His Divine Superiority over 'all things" quite frankly. God doesn't really need our 'excuses' for what exists in His creation.

 

[smaller]

That's correct. No matter how hard one tries.

Sure. And what the verse DOESN'T say is that the Lord created the wicked to be doomed. Nor that He creates the wicked.

It's abundantly clear that "the Lord made the wicked."

It's also clear that the wicked, are, in the end, ETERNALLY DESTROYED. If you think this will all come as some big surprise to God, as if He didn't plan it, in advance, I'd say otherwise. God knows exactly what He's doing.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I believe that Creator God created mankind with the ability to create things. Was not Adam (human race) created "in His image"? Of course he was. I have no problem with the fact that humans can create."

Oh, I see. So, God is NOT involved with ANY of that? Is that your claim? That multiple creators function in creation totally and completely apart from ANY of Gods Involvements?

I am totally amazed at how little is understood in my posts. My question wasn't answered: Was Adam created in God's image? Is God a Creator? I rest my case.

Plus, is the word "pro-create" familiar to you?

Well, guess what? The flesh of both of us IS going to DIE. Period. Scripture considers it already so for us.

Well, guess what? I've already addressed that FACT. And physical death is NOT the issue of what we need to be saved from.

Then let's at LEAST differentiate that there is "flesh death" which is unavoidable.

I already have, so let's just put to rest the FACT that all humans will die physically.

And there is also "eternal death."

As I already pointed out, but apparently was missed.

An entirely different animal.

Not an animal at all, but an experience. We ALL will experience physical death, but it's the experience of the second death that Jesus Christ SAVES us from.

But you do understand that when our flesh DIES it is an "ETERNAL DEATH."

It's an IRRELEVANT death. Believers in Jesus Christ will get NEW RESURRECTION BODIES. So I don't care about my current physical body after I die physically. Good riddance!!

Why are you so focused on physical death?

Death is a power as well. Which of course, GOD CREATED.

This isn't making any sense at all. Please quote a verse that says that God created the power of death.

Death, as a power, is cast into the LoF. And there will be NO MORE DEATH. The Lake of Fire, the second death, is, in effect, the DEATH of DEATH.

And your point?

burp...

Excuse you.

 

[SHINY4UJESUS]

From what I read in the scriptures, I would say it could read like this:

Since God already knew which way the dice roll in every circumstance; those free will decisions were thus foreseen and planned, according to His foreknowledge, when Father formed each and every person; in order for all things to come together properly.


Would do you think?



JLB

yes, this was what I was getting at JLB! That is why I see free will and predestination not as mutually exclusive but two sides of the same end result so to speak.

 

[FreeGrace]

Scripture steps on some false toes. So what?

Which is why your toes hurt so much.

I said this:
"Your view has God pitting Himself against Himself. Does that sound reasonable?"
So sez you. I see no conflict in Divine Superiority over "all things."[/QUOTE]
Which is why your views are unreasonable. There is TOTAL CONFLICT with pitting God against Himself. Yet that isn't a problem in your view. Thanks for admitting such and proving my claims about your views.

IF I had to fall into multiple creator postures to support God, I'd give it up.

No, one should give up when one HAS BEEN REFUTED by your claim that my view has "multiple creators".

I don't know why it's so hard for any of you to see His Divine Superiority over 'all things" quite frankly.

Actually, it's the unbiblical view that pits God against Himself that your view seems incapable of grasping.

God doesn't really need our 'excuses' for what exists in His creation.

Nor does He need any of your false claims about Him.

 

[smaller]

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God
JLB

IF you position claims that God had NOTHING to do with any of it, that claim, I REJECT.

Freewill postures try, quite vainly, to REMOVE GOD from the equations of His Own creation. That claim I also reject.

God is FULLY Involved, Alive and Active in His Own creation. Heb. 4:12.

Everything that transpires IN His creation, transpires "IN" His Omnipresence.

 

[FreeGrace]

It's abundantly clear that "the Lord made the wicked."

Let me be clear: He didn't make them wicked.

It's also clear that the wicked, are, in the end, ETERNALLY DESTROYED. If you think this will all come as some big surprise to God, as if He didn't plan it, in advance, I'd say otherwise.

Only those who deny or reject His omniscience would think anything would come as some "big surprise" to God. Of course nothing surprises God.

God knows exactly what He's doing.

Of course. But it isn't what you think He's doing. ANd you've given no support for your views from Scripture.

 

[smaller]

There is TOTAL CONFLICT with pitting God against Himself. Yet that isn't a problem in your view. Thanks for admitting such and proving my claims about your views.

That's a conflict in your own mind. I have no issues with Divine Superiority creating 'all things' on the basis of His Superiority OVER all things. This seems to evade your sight and by evasion, you have a "lesser" inferior view of Divine Superiority. That's about all there is to it.

No, one should give up when one HAS BEEN REFUTED by your claim that my view has "multiple creators".

Your position claims God is exempt from creating the power of evil, and using it. I have no issues of The Divine Superior doing that, because HE IS GREATER than "any thing."

This is not a complex matter when Divine Superiority is seen, over "all things."

Can God MAKE a flower grow from a turd pile? Yep.

 

[smaller]

Let me be clear: He didn't make them wicked.

Then I'd suggest your position needs to re-write that scripture. I prefer to read it for what it says.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If people have to resort to not believing their own eyes, that too is FROM GOD. So be it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"There is TOTAL CONFLICT with pitting God against Himself. Yet that isn't a problem in your view. Thanks for admitting such and proving my claims about your views."

That's a conflict in your own mind.

Nope. I've already shown from YOUR OWN WORDS that the conflict is in your position, not my mind.

I have no issues with Divine Superiority creating 'all things' on the basis of His Superiority OVER all things.

Neither do I.

This seems to evade your sight and by evasion, you have a "lesser" inferior view of Divine Superiority. That's about all there is to it.

That's just your opinion of it.

Your position claims God is exempt from creating the power of evil, and using it.

Because He is holy. Your "version" has a holy God creating evil and using it. Unreal.

I have no issues of The Divine Superior doing that, because HE IS GREATER than "any thing."

Hardly an excuse. And...no Scripture to back that up.

This is not a complex matter when Divine Superiority is seen, over "all things."

Can God MAKE a flower grow from a turd pile? Yep.

Proving that He creates evil and uses it? Not close to the same thing.

btw, how do you know that He has even done what you suggest? Or was that just another something from your own mind?

 

[FreeGrace]

Then I'd suggest your position needs to re-write that scripture. I prefer to read it for what it says.

Don't need to. It's clear enough.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Again, I repeat: He did not make people wicked.

If people have to resort to not believing their own eyes, that too is FROM GOD. So be it.

Well then, your god must be quite contradicted and conflicted.

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"There is TOTAL CONFLICT with pitting God against Himself. Yet that isn't a problem in your view. Thanks for admitting such and proving my claims about your views."

There is "no thing" that can be against God. At a bare minimum, IF God didn't want "any particular thing" in His Own creation, one might suppose that such a God could at least keep it from happening?

Nope. I've already shown from YOUR OWN WORDS that the conflict is in your position, not my mind.

It is in your mind, equating God to created things. Scripture doesn't do that. That's actually a form of pantheism, making God equal or making God the same as a "created" thing.

That's just your opinion of it.

I have no issues with Divine Superiority over "all created things." No.

Because He is holy. Your "version" has a holy God creating evil and using it. Unreal.

And that would be only you making God the same as a 'created thing.'

Proving that He creates evil and uses it? Not close to the same thing.

As stated prior, there is little use saying anything in Gods creation wasn't created by The Creator. Scripture says quite clearly that IS the case. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and many others, saying the same.

Why the need to 'insulate?'

btw, how do you know that He has even done what you suggest? Or was that just another something from your own mind?

I suggest the scripture is deadly accurate. Not my scripture.

 

[smaller]

Don't need to. It's clear enough.

Again, I repeat: He did not make people wicked.

You should know well enough by now scripture doesn't see people as "just people." This is how scripture sees people, even if your positional sights don't see it as scripture sees:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

A lot of believers fail to observe that the person and the spirit of disobedience are NOT the same. Just as we see, the same thing, here:

2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I don't see "just people" in either case above as that isn't the case.

The same as Paul, from Jesus' Own Lips, shows us here:

Acts 26:
18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Do you see "just people" there? I certainly do not see "just people" in any of the above.

Did God do this? Of course. Paul says exactly, that GOD did this, here:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

We may not care for the conclusions, but whether we do or don't, that's scriptural reality.

Did God do what Paul said? Say otherwise. Wouldn't matter to me. I see what Paul said.

Romans 11:
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

Yeah, GOD DID THAT.

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

We can hold up ALL of the above, and "believers" still will deny it's there to see. Happens everyday.

Well then, your god must be quite contradicted and conflicted.

I just read the fine print. IF you don't see the Wisdom of God in it, not my issue. God can do anything He Pleases. He is not garbed with only your sights of what He IS, thankfully.

I'd say if God can create and use anything, even the power of death and evil, and MAKE even these things His servants, AND STILL WORK ALL THINGS FOR GOOD, then that's a God well beyond anything I could possibly describe. Divine Superiority would be a massive understatement.

A basic, very basic primer in Divine Superiority is that only God Himself knows and is capable of knowing what He Is and Consists Of. Nobody else has enough information to 'capture' what that is. That's why God is rightfully described as A MYSTERY. People who make God subject to their impositions are only carving out an idol. I have no idea about what the "Entirety of God Is" because I'm not God to know what that is.

So we should at least have a little respect for that basic understanding.

Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

I am content with the above being the case. I do feel very comfortable in seeing and hearing that God created all things. Because it's there to see and hear. For some anyway.

And if they don't, they DO have 'multiple creators.' And they also give "excuses" for their God carvings.

 

[dirtfarmer]

God 'created' all spirits. Disobedience IS a spirit. Eph. 2:2.

Did GOD do this?

Romans 11:
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Anyone who says no isn't reading. That's all.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here
What is the spirit "that now worketh in the children of disobedience"? According to the verse that you misinterpret, it is the spirit of the prince of the power of the air, not the spirit of disobedience.

In my bible Romans 11:32 states, " For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he may have mercy upon all." Also "them" is in reference to Israel.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is "no thing" that can be against God.

Please go back and review what you've already posted. Your position does have God against Himself.

It is in your mind, equating God to created things.

Please my posts. That conclusion is not a logical conclusion at all. In fact, far from it.

Scripture doesn't do that. That's actually a form of pantheism, making God equal or making God the same as a "created" thing.

Again, I haven't done that. Your claims are empty.

Why the need to 'insulate?'

Against the cold is the only reason I can think of. Whatever you're referring to by "insulate", I have no idea.

I suggest the scripture is deadly accurate. Not my scripture.

Of course it is. Unlike YOUR scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

You should know well enough by now scripture doesn't see people as "just people."

I'd leave off the word 'just'. The Bible DOES view people as people. It's your view that is strange.

This is how scripture sees people, even if your positional sights don't see it as scripture sees:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

So, somehow there is more to 'people' than 'just people', huh. If you're referring to demons, sure, they exist, but they aren't part of people.

Even when they are indwelling or influencing them. The people are still people. Who need the Savior. Unlike the demons.

A lot of believers fail to observe that the person and the spirit of disobedience are NOT the same.

Please identify anyone you believe thinks that they are the same. I sure DON'T.

I don't see "just people" in either case above as that isn't the case.

I certainly don't see what you've described.

Do you see "just people" there? I certainly do not see "just people" in any of the above.

I can't help you. Probably not even an optrometrist.

I just read the fine print. IF you don't see the Wisdom of God in it, not my issue.

I see His Wisdom just fine. It's your view that is the issue.

God can do anything He Pleases.

He sure doesn't please to tempt anyone. Which means He doesn't cause anyone to commit evil or sin.

He is not garbed with only your sights of what He IS, thankfully.

It is your position that is garbled.

I'd say if God can create and use anything, even the power of death and evil, and MAKE even these things His servants, AND STILL WORK ALL THINGS FOR GOOD, then that's a God well beyond anything I could possibly describe. Divine Superiority would be a massive understatement.

What you've already said cannot be found in Scripture. God does permit evil and does use it for His will.

A basic, very basic primer in Divine Superiority is that only God Himself knows and is capable of knowing what He Is and Consists Of. Nobody else has enough information to 'capture' what that is. That's why God is rightfully described as A MYSTERY.

I always refer to Scripture to understand all that God has revealed of Himself to mankind. It seems your view is that we can't even know what He has revealed. So it seems you've made up a bunch of stuff.
least have a little respect for that basic understanding.

 

[JLB]

IF you position claims that God had NOTHING to do with any of it, that claim, I REJECT.

Freewill postures try, quite vainly, to REMOVE GOD from the equations of His Own creation. That claim I also reject.

God is FULLY Involved, Alive and Active in His Own creation. Heb. 4:12.

Everything that transpires IN His creation, transpires "IN" His Omnipresence.

Please answer the question.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God


JLB

 

[WIP]

Okay people. I'm seeing a lot of posts with counter claims or counter points being made without offering the Scripture to support the claims or the explanations to go with them. This forum has rules to be followed so lets get back on track and avoid the personal comments and stabs.

 

[smaller]

Please answer the question.
Did sin enter the world through man or through God?
a. through man
b. through God
JLB

There is little use continuing to repeat your demands to blame and accuse only Adam JLB, while simultaneously and completely ignoring the role of The Creator of Adam. That kind of theology won't cut it with me, ever. We can never logically remove The Creator and expect to have credible understandings.

God created "all things." Col. 1:16. "All things" were created for The Creators pleasure. Rev. 4:11. The Creator upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Heb. 1:3.

The instant your positions remove God from the equations, it's no longer christian theology imho. It becomes another kind of religion. Maybe polytheism, maybe pantheism. Maybe both and a whole lot of other.

So, examine your demand above. And I'll ask you WHY you demand to remove GOD?

Only Godless theology makes that kind of demand.