Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JLB]

IF God "created" the spirit of disobedience.

Please post the scripture that says... God created the spirit of disobedience.

There is no such spirit that is called the "spirit of disobedience".

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. Ephesians 2:1-3

The spirit that works in those who refuse God is Death.

• Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Revelation 20:14

• So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:8

JLB

 

[JLB]

Sin "entered" the FLESH of MAN via the 'spirit of disobedience' IN THE FLESH, which God Himself ALSO made. God also made "all spirits." Just as He made and makes 'all things." Your position always mistakes the MAN for the sin. Scripture doesn't see it that way.

Sin entered the world through Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


JLB

 

[smaller]

I said this:
""Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked.""

Gods creation was good because it ALL came from Gods Own Hands. Trying to remove Gods Hands from the equations of His creation isn't possible. IN and of themselves many things in the Garden are "not good." That doesn't mean in Gods Hands 'all things' in creation can not work for good, as the scripture tells us, here:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

But we know this is ONLY possible with Gods Hands on "all things." Things in and of themselves are not necessarily "good."

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That's part of the problem of "sin" in the flesh of man. It tries quite vainly to make 'things' in and of themselves "good and evil." Good comes from God. So does Evil. But all things including evil are USED for good in Gods Hands.

If the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was only good, or very good, God would not have given His Word of warning and promise of death to disobedience. But Gods Words of warning and promise of death of the flesh to disobedience is actually VERY GOOD in the Eyes of God as well. That was entirely in His Plan. All of it. Not one move in the Garden was a random act of any of the components therein. None of what existed there or in creation doesn't have a Divine Purpose and impetus behind it. Which is the general point.

When God created Adam, Satan was NOT in any so-called "equation". Please read Gen 2:7 and the issue is clear.

Satan was in the Garden. Was Satan in the garden, in and of himself "very good?" Of course not. It's absurd to make that claim. We did this drill before. Potential disobedience was in the Garden. Was potential disobedience good? The knowledge of evil was in the Garden. Was the knowledge of evil, good? Deception was in the Garden. Was deception good? The LAW OF GOD was in the Garden. We know the LAW is for lawless sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9. On this basis alone, the delivery of LAW, we know Adam was already, internally, a LAWLESS SINNER. When we see this fact, then we ask "why" is this so? Because 'Satan enters the heart' where The Word is sown. Mark 4:15. Was all of the above made by God, part of His Plan, all in His Hands?

Absolutely it all was predestined to transpire.

Please actually quote any of these verses that refer to Adam's creation.

I said this:
"I think anyone who reads 1 Cor 15:42-46 knows that Paul was referring to ALL humans born AFTER Adam sinned."

And that is a false claim, already isolated. Paul tells us that Adam was MADE according to the features stipulated in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. And every one of those features are available to see in THE GARDEN.

Please quit making these totally undecipherable statements with quotes around words that clearly don't relate to anything.

I use it so people who are failing in their reasoning can use that to blame lack of reasonable "exchange."

Until the notion of what Adam was supposedly "planted" into, I cannot respond to this sentence.

Let's trot out the written evidence again. And I'd like to note that it was not a pile of dust taken from outside the Garden that was given life from God's breath. That pile of dust was only a "God formed" container. That container was dust/clay/earth nevertheless. Without Gods Forming Hands it would be dust, which dust God made also, but I hope you understand that Adam was not the "same as" his dust container. That "container" without the LIFE of God breathed into it was DEAD. It was only 'animated' by the Spirit of God within it. I hope you understand the difference between Gods son, Adam, and the container that God Made to contain Adam, His son.

Adam was Gods son who was PUT into or "birthed" and breathed into that container. Luke 3:38.

I'm going to put the "summation" Paul makes at the end of his statements of facts about how the CONTAINER of Adam was MADE at the beginning below, because some miss the point when reading the features of Adam's 'container making.' I'll put the 'made features' in red/bold, for highlighting:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The above shows the conditions of Adam's CONTAINER. Into which Gods Breath was put, making 'a son.' It was the BREATH of God that made Gods son, Adam. But without that BREATH that container was nothing but dead fading dust. In that dust was "corruption." That dead dust was NOT the inheritor of eternity. It was corrupt and corruptible.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Again, that dust was not honorable. That dust was quite purposefully weak. Dust and the life of Adam therein are NOT the same. This is not a hard place of understanding.


44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I would hope that anyone could perceive that the dust body of Adam was not Adam. It was a "natural, temporal, corrupt, weak, dead" container into which Adam was breathed/born by Gods Breath.

Differentiate the son from the container.

Uh, just what was the question? Your vagueness abounds.

No, the lack of simple insight abounds. Some people see Adam as "his container." Adam was not "the container." The container contained Adam, but that was never Gods Long Term Plan for His son, Adam. Period. As Paul tells us here:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In both cases THE MAKER MAKES.

Adam did not "make" himself.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Actually, Lucifer is the first cause of sin, by his rebellion in heaven and wanting to be God himself. And he deceived the woman.

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

You are correct in that Lucifer was the "first cause" of sin in heaven. But, even though he was the first cause of sin, it was Adam that was the first cause of sin in man. Adam sinned willfully and that brought "spiritual death" to all.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Gods creation was good because it ALL came from Gods Own Hands. Trying to remove Gods Hands from the equations of His creation isn't possible. IN and of themselves many things in the Garden are "not good." That doesn't mean in Gods Hands 'all things' in creation can not work for good, as the scripture tells us, here:

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

But we know this is ONLY possible with Gods Hands on "all things." Things in and of themselves are not necessarily "good."

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

That's part of the problem of "sin" in the flesh of man. It tries quite vainly to make 'things' in and of themselves "good and evil." Good comes from God. So does Evil. But all things including evil are USED for good in Gods Hands.

If the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil was only good, or very good, God would not have given His Word of warning and promise of death to disobedience. But Gods Words of warning and promise of death of the flesh to disobedience is actually VERY GOOD in the Eyes of God as well. That was entirely in His Plan. All of it. Not one move in the Garden was a random act of any of the components therein. None of what existed there or in creation doesn't have a Divine Purpose and impetus behind it. Which is the general point.


Satan was in the Garden. Was Satan in the garden, in and of himself "very good?" Of course not. It's absurd to make that claim. We did this drill before. Potential disobedience was in the Garden. Was potential disobedience good? The knowledge of evil was in the Garden. Was the knowledge of evil, good? Deception was in the Garden. Was deception good? The LAW OF GOD was in the Garden. We know the LAW is for lawless sinners. 1 Tim. 1:9. On this basis alone, the delivery of LAW, we know Adam was already, internally, a LAWLESS SINNER. When we see this fact, then we ask "why" is this so? Because 'Satan enters the heart' where The Word is sown. Mark 4:15. Was all of the above made by God, part of His Plan, all in His Hands?

Absolutely it all was predestined to transpire.



And that is a false claim, already isolated. Paul tells us that Adam was MADE according to the features stipulated in 1 Cor. 15:42-46. And every one of those features are available to see in THE GARDEN.



I use it so people who are failing in their reasoning can use that to blame lack of reasonable "exchange."


Let's trot out the written evidence again. And I'd like to note that it was not a pile of dust taken from outside the Garden that was given life from God's breath. That pile of dust was only a "God formed" container. That container was dust/clay/earth nevertheless. Without Gods Forming Hands it would be dust, which dust God made also, but I hope you understand that Adam was not the "same as" his dust container. That "container" without the LIFE of God breathed into it was DEAD. It was only 'animated' by the Spirit of God within it. I hope you understand the difference between Gods son, Adam, and the container that God Made to contain Adam, His son.

Adam was Gods son who was PUT into or "birthed" and breathed into that container. Luke 3:38.

I'm going to put the "summation" Paul makes at the end of his statements of facts about how the CONTAINER of Adam was MADE at the beginning below, because some miss the point when reading the features of Adam's 'container making.' I'll put the 'made features' in red/bold, for highlighting:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The above shows the conditions of Adam's CONTAINER. Into which Gods Breath was put, making 'a son.' It was the BREATH of God that made Gods son, Adam. But without that BREATH that container was nothing but dead fading dust. In that dust was "corruption." That dead dust was NOT the inheritor of eternity. It was corrupt and corruptible.


43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Again, that dust was not honorable. That dust was quite purposefully weak. Dust and the life of Adam therein are NOT the same. This is not a hard place of understanding.


44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I would hope that anyone could perceive that the dust body of Adam was not Adam. It was a "natural, temporal, corrupt, weak, dead" container into which Adam was breathed/born by Gods Breath.

Differentiate the son from the container.



No, the lack of simple insight abounds. Some people see Adam as "his container." Adam was not "the container." The container contained Adam, but that was never Gods Long Term Plan for His son, Adam. Period. As Paul tells us here:

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In both cases THE MAKER MAKES.

Adam did not "make" himself.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

The thing that you are failing to understand is that God didn't create Lucifer in the garden, it was in the heavenlies and he was created as the "covering cherub" not the adversary.. When "the serpent" tempted Eve in the garden, he had already rebelled and became "the adversary"

 

[smaller]

Please post the scripture that says... God created the spirit of disobedience.

God created all things. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and numerous other scriptures. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Well, I do, but that's beside the point.

There is no such spirit that is called the "spirit of disobedience".

That's part of why I highlight facts in bold/red. So people can deny what's highlighted.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience, is Satan, the god of this world, the blinder of the unbelievers minds, the power of darkness. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4.

And yes, God did make "all things" and "all powers" and "all principalities" which all by the term "all things" includes Satan.

Colossians 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Was the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience made by God? Absolutely, beyond any question.

No "thing" in Gods creation "made" itself. Whatever "things" in Gods creation do, they were MADE to do by God.

People complain when they realize that God made them, therefore they could be "associated" with being a puppet. Well, God did make us. Puppet the fact all we please, we did not "make" ourselves nor did we "create" ourselves.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

The thing that you are failing to understand is that God didn't create Lucifer in the garden, it was in the heavenlies and he was created as the "covering cherub" not the adversary.. When "the serpent" tempted Eve in the garden, he had already rebelled and became "the adversary"

God, The Creator, created "all things" according to the facts of scriptures. There is no way to avoid this conclusion. There is "no thing" in creation that was not made and created by The Creator. The Hands of First Cause extend to "every thing" in creation.

Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Heb. 1:3,

Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

 

[smaller]

Those who understand and accept the attribute of God, omniscience, would exchange 'planned' for "knew from eternity past". God certainly knew, without having to cause, what Adam would do. You've not proven otherwise.

Your premise is that the Creator created, and then had abolutely nothing to do with anything He created, after the fact. I don't know how any believer could take such claims credibly.

You might get the chance to ask Job someday, about Gods Sovereignty:

Job 42:
11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the Lord had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

 

[dirtfarmer]

God, The Creator, created "all things" according to the facts of scriptures. There is no way to avoid this conclusion. There is "no thing" in creation that was not made and created by The Creator. The Hands of First Cause extend to "every thing" in creation.

Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Heb. 1:3,

Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Are you saying that sin has a life of it's own that God gave it?

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

Are you saying that sin has a life of it's own that God gave it?

Sin is a spiritual adverse working. It is not scientifically proven. We can't cut open the flesh and find "indwelling sin." But Romans 7:17 & 20 tells us it is "in the flesh." As "NO MORE I." It is adverse spiritual working.

Did God make that working? Yes. Precisely to "destroy" the body of dust, the natural man. God had absolutely no intentions whatsoever of a wet dust pile to inherit eternity and to live forever.

We were Divinely Placed in a wet dust container, subject to dishonor, corruption, weakness and death, Divinely Precisely so that we would come to know Gods Own Mercy in Christ by faith. The application of Mercy requires "conditions" to provide it. God IS Mercy. God "made" man subject to those conditions (1 Cor. 15:42-47) to come to KNOW HIS OWN MERCY.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

That disobedience is "adverse spiritual working" in the flesh/mind. It is known and knowable by our "perceptions" of "evil thoughts" which defile us. We have "evil present" within us. Romans 7:21. This is not a forensic matter either. Therefore it is "adverse spiritual" in nature. An "unseen" power that God Himself made. The "power of evil."

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

That "resistance" power, of evil, IS present with us, that is, in our own flesh. The flesh is the 'container' of it, but the flesh is not that 'power.'

We know evil present within us by the existence of evil (against the LAWs of God) thoughts. As delineated by Jesus, here:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

The above, from Jesus, about the 'internal reality' of evil present, Paul proved to "himself" in Romans 7:7-13. And anyone today can make this same proof to themselves.

BUT, the presence of EVIL can not speak these truths, because it is, by it's "evil spiritual nature," A LIAR and a DECEIVER and a TEMPTER and a KILLER and a DESTROYER.

Did God Himself put us under that power? Absolutely. God bound everyone to disobedience. Romans 11:32. There is no way to remove God from the equation.

 

[JLB]

God created all things. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and numerous other scriptures. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Well, I do, but that's beside the point.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


Did sin enter the world through God, or through Adam?


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Sin is a spiritual adverse working. It is not scientifically proven. We can't cut open the flesh and find "indwelling sin." But Romans 7:17 & 20 tells us it is "in the flesh." As "NO MORE I." It is adverse spiritual working.

Did God make that working? Yes. Precisely to "destroy" the body of dust, the natural man. God had absolutely no intentions whatsoever of a wet dust pile to inherit eternity and to live forever.

We were Divinely Placed in a wet dust container, subject to dishonor, corruption, weakness and death, Divinely Precisely so that we would come to know Gods Own Mercy in Christ by faith. The application of Mercy requires "conditions" to provide it. God IS Mercy. God "made" man subject to those conditions (1 Cor. 15:42-47) to come to KNOW HIS OWN MERCY.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

That disobedience is "adverse spiritual working" in the flesh/mind. It is known and knowable by our "perceptions" of "evil thoughts" which defile us. We have "evil present" within us. Romans 7:21. This is not a forensic matter either. Therefore it is "adverse spiritual" in nature. An "unseen" power that God Himself made. The "power of evil."

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

That "resistance" power, of evil, IS present with us, that is, in our own flesh. The flesh is the 'container' of it, but the flesh is not that 'power.'

We know evil present within us by the existence of evil (against the LAWs of God) thoughts. As delineated by Jesus, here:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

The above, from Jesus, about the 'internal reality of evil present, Paul proved to "himself" in Romans 7:7-13. And anyone today can make this same proof to themselves.

BUT, the presence of EVIL can not speak these truths, because it is, by it's "evil spiritual nature," A LIAR and a DECEIVER and a TEMPTER.

Did God Himself put us under that power? Absolutely. God bound everyone to disobedience. Romans 11:32. There is no way to remove God from the equation.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You may understand that God put us under the power of the god of this world, but that is heresy. Adam is the one that Satan usurped the power to rule over this world from in the garden of Eden. Revelation is God revealing Christ regaining the "title deed' to this world and then establishing his earthly kingdom that was promised to the Hebrews.

 

[JLB]

That's part of why I highlight facts in bold/red. So people can deny what's highlighted.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

No spirit of disobedience mentioned here.

Those who are children of sin and disobedience have death working in them.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:1-2


Those who obey the Gospel have been made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sin.



JLB

 

[smaller]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

You are correct in that Lucifer was the "first cause" of sin in heaven. But, even though he was the first cause of sin, it was Adam that was the first cause of sin in man. Adam sinned willfully and that brought "spiritual death" to all.

And that is polytheism. Multiple 'creators.'

No "thing" would exist in the first place without The Creator. IF anyone wants to say Satan 'created' then Satan himself was "created" by the Creator to do what he does. There is no way to remove God as "First Cause" with any "thing" in creation.

IF a created thing 'does' anything, it does so by Gods creation of it.

All things under heaven, on earth and in creation are here so, by God Himself making it so.

No thing would exist today, without the power of God Himself sustaining "all things."

Hebrews 1:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Could God, right now, choose to destroy the power of evil? Absolutely. But God has 'Divine Reasons' NOT TO do so. Our subjugation to "evil" in the flesh makes our NEED for His Own Mercy. And yes, God did create this setting to show His Mercy and His Power over 'ALL THINGS.'

Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God can and does raise up EVIL, precisely to show His Dominion over "all things." Just as Pharaoh above, shows us. It was GOD who made pharaoh to RESIST God.

The Word, the law of God, forces the power of EVIL to arise, and to RESIST.

1 Corinthians 15:
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The Law of God was put into play in this current environment precisely to make sin utterly sinful.

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You may understand that God put us under the power of the god of this world, but that is heresy.

I read what The Spirit said through Paul. Paul tells the truth, here. If others can't agree to it, it won't change the fact.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Adam is the one that Satan usurped the power to rule over this world from in the garden of Eden. Revelation is God revealing Christ regaining the "title deed' to this world and then establishing his earthly kingdom that was promised to the Hebrews.

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

I don't buy the story you have above, at all. It was God Himself who made and placed "all of creation" in vanity.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[smaller]

No spirit of disobedience mentioned here.

Those who are children of sin and disobedience have death working in them.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, Ephesians 2:1-2

Those who obey the Gospel have been made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sin.

JLB

You can claim you are "personally better" than Paul. I don't buy any of those claims. Paul did things he hated after salvation by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:15. Paul had lustful thoughts, after salvation, by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:7-13 and Gal. 3:13-14. Paul did evil by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:20. Paul had evil present with him by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:21. Paul was not better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

No one, who is under the controlling power of evil, can truthfully speak what Paul did. Paul demonstrates the presence of SPIRITUAL HONESTY by The Holy Spirit, speaking "truthfully" through him. No liar can "go there" and speak as Paul spoke. It is not permitted by The Holy Spirit. Evil can not SPEAK these truthful things. It can only LIE.

If you want to try to follow Paul as he followed Christ, then you will have to speak as Paul spoke.

 

[th1b.taylor]

You can claim you are "personally better" than Paul. I don't buy any of those claims. Paul did things he hated after salvation by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:15. Paul had lustful thoughts, after salvation, by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:7-13 and Gal. 3:13-14. Paul did evil by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:20. Paul had evil present with him by his own truthful statement in Romans 7:21. Paul was not better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9.

No one, who is under the controlling power of evil, can truthfully speak what Paul did. Paul demonstrates the presence of SPIRITUAL HONESTY by The Holy Spirit, speaking "truthfully" through him. No liar can "go there" and speak as Paul spoke. It is not permitted by The Holy Spirit. Evil can not SPEAK these truthful things. It can only LIE.

If you want to try to follow Paul as he followed Christ, then you will have to speak as Paul spoke.

Good morning Smaller,
There is that movement that affects so many today. Down here they call it the Holiness Movement. In the nineties we used a number of Hot Shoters, and which depended on what and where the load to be flown to Japan was.

This one saw my Bible on my desk one day and explained to me that I needed to become a member at his Church because he lived such a holy life that he had not sinned for over four years. I explained and showed him the passage about if you say you have no sin in you, you are a liar for all have sinned and fallen short of God.

We used him for that run because we knew he never drove the speed limit and that customer pushed the envelope that day and almost missed the flight. So I told that he had just sinned and that I knew the drive time from his point of pick-up to our warehouse and that he had beat that time by better than thirty minute, meaning he had speeded and speeding was a sin against Man's Laws.

He objected, admitted he had driven quite a bit faster than the speed limit and told me breaking man's laws was not a sin. These folks have rationalized sin out of their lives and are difficult to deal with.

May God bless your work.

 

[smaller]

Good morning Smaller,
There is that movement that affects so many today. Down here they call it the Holiness Movement. In the nineties we used a number of Hot Shoters, and which depended on what and where the load to be flown to Japan was.

This one saw my Bible on my desk one day and explained to me that I needed to become a member at his Church because he lived such a holy life that he had not sinned for over four years. I explained and showed him the passage about if you say you have no sin in you, you are a liar for all have sinned and fallen short of God.

We used him for that run because we knew he never drove the speed limit and that customer pushed the envelope that day and almost missed the flight. So I told that he had just sinned and that I knew the drive time from his point of pick-up to our warehouse and that he had beat that time by better than thirty minute, meaning he had speeded and speeding was a sin against Man's Laws.

He objected, admitted he had driven quite a bit faster than the speed limit and told me breaking man's laws was not a sin. These folks have rationalized sin out of their lives and are difficult to deal with.

May God bless your work.

I've met many such false claimers in the believing realm. But then when we have vast segments of christianity who claim a sin is only what is seen on the outside and this lie gets pummeled into the masses for centuries, what do we really expect? Dishonesty breeds dishonesty. I've learned to expect "dishonesty" from many. But I don't blame them. There is another working behind the scenes, deceiving them. Romans 7:21. I think we both know where "all liars" end up, in the end, don't we?

I prefer honesty, even though that honesty is against sin in my own flesh, and evil present with me, that I DO WAR with (Romans 7:23), to stay in honesty. I call it the "leveling ground." Puts everyone flat on their faces before Our Supreme Maker. Romans 3:19 are the shoes we stand in before our Maker. And, yes, we HOPE in His Eternal Mercy by faith in Christ because God has put us IN NEED of same. Sore NEED.

There is the promise of Divine Butchery when we are taken up into Christ. The evil present with us will be carved out of us, before we are FIT TO STAND before Him in AWE.

 

[JLB]

You can claim you are "personally better" than Paul. I don't buy any of those claims.

No one Ever claimed we were personally better than Paul.

This is just another weak logical fallacy:

FALSE CAUSE -

Presuming that a real or perceived relationship between
things means that one is the cause of the other.
Many people confuse correlation (things happening together or in sequence)
for causation (that one thing actually causes the other to happen). Sometimes
correlation is coincidental, or it may be attributable to a common cause.
Pointing to a fancy chart, Roger shows how temperatures have been rising over
the past few centuries, whilst at the same time the numbers of pirates have
been decreasing; thus pirates cool the world and global warming is a hoax.



JLB

 

[JLB]

If you want to try to follow Paul as he followed Christ, then you will have to speak as Paul spoke.

Here is what Paul taught:

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1


Here is what Paul taught:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


Did sin enter the world through God, or through Adam?


JLB