Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

The Creator is indeed involved, as He paid the price for our sins, so we could be reconciled to the Father, by faith in Jesus Christ.

His involvement is righteousness.

Setting things right in the perfect world He created, by redeeming a fallen race.

JLB

That's why setup formula's are kinda worthless when they eliminate God from the equations. God is never eliminated from any equation in His creation.

I understand Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ precisely because of being bound in the flesh with disobedience, just as Romans 11:32 showed me GOD did. And for what reason.

Was God "Justified" in doing that? Absolutely. I appreciate being "shown" the contrast in order to see/experience His Mercy in Christ by faith in Him. I would never claim that disobedience isn't a reality, or that it is "obedient."

Others may claim otherwise. ymmv

 

[JLB]

That's why setup formula's are kinda worthless when they eliminate God from the equations. God is never eliminated from any equation in His creation.

Everyone see's you lying about what was posted, as no one has said anything about "eliminating God from the equation".

I understand Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ precisely because of being bound in the flesh with disobedience, just as Romans 11:32 showed me GOD did. And for what reason.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

Romans 11:32 has absolutely nothing to do with sin entering the world through one man.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Romans 11:32 KJV

• The subject matter here in Romans 11 is the Jews and there rejecting the Gospel.

You are attempting to mix the context of the Jews rejecting the Gospel, with the sin that entered the world through one man; Adam.

In which you are hoping to show that it was God who introduced sin into the world because He forced Adam to sin.

That is heresy!!!

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:28-36


Sin entered the world through ONE MAN, not by God, but by one man, Adam, in which all were made to be sinners.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
Romans 5:19

Sin is removed by One Man's obedience, so those who were sinners can now be called righteous, if they believe the Gospel.

Romans 11:32 has absolutely nothing to do with sin entering the world through one man.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked."

Anyone reading about Adam should take Paul's understanding of Adam from 1 Cor. 15:42-46 to see what Adam, the natural man, was all about.

I think anyone who reads 1 Cor 15:42-46 knows that Paul was referring to ALL humans born AFTER Adam sinned. But Adam was NOT created that way. Or, for anyone who disagrees, please show verses that teach that Adam was created with a sinful nature.

In any cases of sights, Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. As such I see zero basis to slur Adam for any reasons. Or Eve for that matter. But there are a lot of "other things" going on in the account that are not just "Adam and Eve."

Why is there such ambiguity in your posts? Why not just come out and specify whatever it is that is being referred to?

We all know that Satan deceived the woman, and Adam gave in to the woman. Or, is there something else that you're being coy about?

Mark 4:15 is exactly what happened to Adam. When you see and understand that, you won't see just Adam.

Once again, why all this coyness? Why not just come out with it?

However, Mark 4:15 supports what I've said about Adam and the woman above.

 

[FreeGrace]

Posted to smaller:

Everyone see's you lying about what was posted, as no one has said anything about "eliminating God from the equation".

That is his MO for sure. Regardless of those who have refuted his claims over and over.

 

[smaller]

Everyone see's you lying about what was posted, as no one has said anything about "eliminating God from the equation".

It was your equation, not mine:

a. through man
b. through God

Selecting a. removes God from the equation. I don't buy that angle. Sorry.

Romans 11:32 has absolutely nothing to do with sin entering the world through one man.

I would think that scripture assuredly applies. It's quite clear that God bound all to disobedience. There is no way around it unless we start eliminating Gods Words from application to all. Which is what you'll try next, below.

• The subject matter here in Romans 11 is the Jews and there rejecting the Gospel.

You are attempting to mix the context of the Jews rejecting the Gospel, with the sin that entered the world through one man; Adam.

Romans 11:32 doesn't say God only bound Jews to disobedience.

In which you are hoping to show that it was God who introduced sin into the world because He forced Adam to sin.

That is heresy!!!

I don't see "only Adam" in the equation. God is quite clear about the other party involved in Eph. 2:2 and 2 Cor. 4:4. And this shows us that party that is "not man."

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?”
35 “Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?”

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
Romans 11:28-36

Sin entered the world through ONE MAN, not by God, but by one man, Adam, in which all were made to be sinners.

Uh huh. And it was GOD who bound man to disobedience. Just as Paul says in Romans 11:32. Even if you concede your own claim, that God bound only JEWS to disobedience, you still have GOD doing it. Doesn't that occur to you?

Romans 11:32 has absolutely nothing to do with sin entering the world through one man.

I don't disagree that by that one binding, the same binding came upon all. That still doesn't mean God DIDN'T bind that man, which 1 Cor. 15:42-46 also shows. And all natural men, likewise bound.

 

[smaller]

I said this:
"Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked."

We've already covered this. Adam is not "the only" one involved. Sin is quite factually of the devil, the spirit of disobedience. It is quite pointless to see just Adam in the equations.

Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, 1 Cor. 15:42-46, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 ALL bring another party that is not Adam to the table.

But when readers see just Adam, then that's all they'll see.

I think anyone who reads 1 Cor 15:42-46 knows that Paul was referring to ALL humans born AFTER Adam sinned.

It's quite abundantly clear that's what Adam was "planted" into. He is referenced, specifically. Adam did not created those 'conditions.' The Creator DID.

But Adam was NOT created that way. Or, for anyone who disagrees, please show verses that teach that Adam was created with a sinful nature.

It was never a question of just Adam to start with. God bound "everyone" TO disobedience. Romans 11:32. That disobedience is shown to be "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience" in Eph. 2:2. Was that Adam? Never. Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. But this does not account for the factually defiled state of the flesh.

Why is there such ambiguity in your posts? Why not just come out and specify whatever it is that is being referred to?

Not ambiguous at all. But when people have read their whole lives through various stories, then they only see their stories.

We all know that Satan deceived the woman, and Adam gave in to the woman. Or, is there something else that you're being coy about?

At least you managed to get the quite obvious other party on the table. Bravo.

It was never a question of just Adam or Eve.

 

[JLB]

It was your equation, not mine:

No equation.

Just a simple question from scripture, that you can't answer because your theory about God introducing sin into the earth is false doctrine.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

Sin came through Adams disobedience, not from God.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No equation.

Just a simple question from scripture, that you can't answer because your theory about God introducing sin into the earth is false doctrine.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19

Sin came through Adams disobedience, not from God.

JLB

There is no escape from the very scriptural conclusion that God made Adam, and all things.

As much as your positions might try, the long standing very solid Christian stance of "First Cause" applies to "all things" in creation. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11. There is no extracting The Creator from the equations of any "thing" that exists in His Own creation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

There is no escape from the very scriptural conclusion that God made Adam, and all things.

As much as your positions might try, the long standing very solid Christian stance of "First Cause" applies to "all things" in creation. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11. There is no extracting The Creator from the equations of any "thing" that exists in His Own creation.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before: Sin is not an addition to man, but it is a deficiency that man brought upon himself. Adam did not have to eat of the tree but freely chose to. Eve was deceived, but Adam, with his eyes wide open, sinned willfully and since he was the "federal head" of the human race, sin pasted upon all men.

God is not "the first cause" of sin, but Adam is.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before: Sin is not an addition to man, but it is a deficiency that man brought upon himself.

1 Cor. 15:42-46 tells us quite plainly that God never had any permanent long term intentions with Adam in the flesh to start with. Paul tells us "GODS WAY." It's a hinge point of many observations in scripture:

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Man didn't make man "natural" any more than man made man spiritual. Neither happened because of man, but because of God Alone.

Adam did not have to eat of the tree but freely chose to.

Adam was clueless, as a natural man, about things of the Spirit. Just as all natural men are to this day. It hasn't changed since day 1 of man in the natural. But the same basic claim you make above, that man made his own bed, exists also in believers who think that man makes himself spiritual. None of these postures are true nor can they be true.

I think God specifically chose Saul, trained in "religious ways" like NONE of the other Apostles were, to show how blinded a 'pseudo/false/blinded' religious natural man is, prior to FORCING conversion upon Saul.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Adam wasn't ONE BIT different. Not one bit. He was a "natural blind man." Divinely MADE to be exactly that.

God is not "the first cause" of sin, but Adam is.

All of Gods Plans for all things have always existed in and with God and always will. To say 'creation' was some kind of 'fault' or 'surprise' to God isn't a credible posture for christians, imho. Jesus knew what was in store and what was going to happen before anything was even made.

Everything in Gods creation performs precisely to what God already had In Mind from before any beginnings and will be that way after any endings. It's all His Show, period.

Rather than wasting time "blaming and accusing Adam" we'd be better off witnessing the Divine Superiority in how God Himself made Adam and PLANNED everything that would transpire. In some eyes it was all just an accident that must be blamed on Adam. I find such postures nonsense. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world in the MIND OF GOD.

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[JLB]

There is no escape from the very scriptural conclusion that God made Adam, and all things.

God made Adam.
God did not make Adam sin.

Sin did not enter the world through God.
Sin entered the world through Adam.

God did not tempt Adam to sin.
God did not entice Adam to sin.
God did not force Adam to sin.

Adam chose to disobey God.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Romans 5:12

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
James 1:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

As much as your positions might try, the long standing very solid Christian stance of "First Cause" applies to "all things" in creation. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11. There is no extracting The Creator from the equations of any "thing" that exists in His Own creation.

Makes no sense and has no point.


JLB

 

[smaller]

God made Adam.
God did not make Adam sin.

God made Adam, the natural man, to be EXACTLY what God Himself Planned, in Advance, for Adam. Adam in every way was no Divine accident. He was made EXACTLY as God Alone made him. Adam did not create himself or anything about himself. Without the Spirit of Gods life breathed into that dust pile Adam would be nothing but a dead dust pile.

Sin did not enter the world through God.

Sin "entered" the FLESH of MAN via the 'spirit of disobedience' IN THE FLESH, which God Himself ALSO made. God also made "all spirits." Just as He made and makes 'all things." Your position always mistakes the MAN for the sin. Scripture doesn't see it that way.

Paul described the sin that dwelt in his own flesh, POST SALVATION as "NO MORE I." Romans 7:17 & 20. Your position MISTAKES Adam for the sin that dwelt in his flesh. Just as your position makes the same MISTAKES again and again, always and only seeking to blame and accuse man. I consider such attempts to be nothing more than the "spirit of disobedience" trying, predictably and vainly, to blame Adam, Gods Own son. Luke 3:38.

You might have to apologize to Adam when you meet up with him someday. Think about that for awhile while you are blaming him.

 

[smaller]

Makes no sense and has no point.

JLB

I understand that "believers" who don't accept that The Creator created "all things" as SCRIPTURE says, won't get it, and in fact can't get it. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[smaller]

IF God "created" the spirit of disobedience. Bound TEMPORAL flesh to that working. Uses it for the "temporal tool" that it is to demonstrate His Eternal Mercy. Destroys that spirit of disobedience, as PREDETERMINED in the end. He is entirely justified in doing so. None of us will have a word to say about it.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Be thankful God pulled you out from under the ether when He did, by His Mercy in Christ, through faith. If you need a reminder I'm sure it can be provided.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
""Please re-read my post. God created Adam and the woman and said of His creation: "good". They were not wicked.""

We've already covered this. Adam is not "the only" one involved. Sin is quite factually of the devil, the spirit of disobedience. It is quite pointless to see just Adam in the equations.

When God created Adam, Satan was NOT in any so-called "equation". Please read Gen 2:7 and the issue is clear.

Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, 1 Cor. 15:42-46, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 ALL bring another party that is not Adam to the table.

Please actually quote any of these verses that refer to Adam's creation.

I said this:
"I think anyone who reads 1 Cor 15:42-46 knows that Paul was referring to ALL humans born AFTER Adam sinned."
[QUOTEIt's quite abundantly clear that's what Adam was "planted" into.[/QUOTE]
Please quit making these totally undecipherable statements with quotes around words that clearly don't relate to anything. Adam was NOT planted into anything. Maybe you've mixed up the plants in the Garden with Adam himself. So, whatever is meant, was too vague to figure out. If serious discussion is the goal, then just speak plainly, drop the quote marks and quit using words that don't refer to reality.

He is referenced, specifically. Adam did not created those 'conditions.' The Creator DID.

Until the notion of what Adam was supposedly "planted" into, I cannot respond to this sentence.

Not ambiguous at all. But when people have read their whole lives through various stories, then they only see their stories.

Just another ambiguous statement.

It was never a question of just Adam or Eve.

Uh, just what was the question? Your vagueness abounds.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

As I have stated before: Sin is not an addition to man, but it is a deficiency that man brought upon himself. Adam did not have to eat of the tree but freely chose to. Eve was deceived, but Adam, with his eyes wide open, sinned willfully and since he was the "federal head" of the human race, sin pasted upon all men.

God is not "the first cause" of sin, but Adam is.

Actually, Lucifer is the first cause of sin, by his rebellion in heaven and wanting to be God himself. And he deceived the woman.

 

[FreeGrace]

God made Adam, the natural man, to be EXACTLY what God Himself Planned, in Advance, for Adam.

Those who understand and accept the attribute of God, omniscience, would exchange 'planned' for "knew from eternity past". God certainly knew, without having to cause, what Adam would do. You've not proven otherwise.

Adam in every way was no Divine accident.

Red herring fallacy. No one argues for any such divine accident. The very idea is absurd to those who understand God's omniscience.

He was made EXACTLY as God Alone made him. Adam did not create himself or anything about himself. Without the Spirit of Gods life breathed into that dust pile Adam would be nothing but a dead dust pile.

There is no reason to keep stating the obvious. None of this is in debate.

Sin "entered" the FLESH of MAN via the 'spirit of disobedience' IN THE FLESH, which God Himself ALSO made. God also made "all spirits." Just as He made and makes 'all things." Your position always mistakes the MAN for the sin. Scripture doesn't see it that way.

Apparently, you don't see Scripture correctly.

Paul described the sin that dwelt in his own flesh, POST SALVATION as "NO MORE I." Romans 7:17 & 20.

Is this just an excuse for your own personal sins?

Your position MISTAKES Adam for the sin that dwelt in his flesh. Just as your position makes the same MISTAKES again and again, always and only seeking to blame and accuse man. I consider such attempts to be nothing more than the "spirit of disobedience" trying, predictably and vainly, to blame Adam, Gods Own son. Luke 3:38.

You might have to apologize to Adam when you meet up with him someday. Think about that for awhile while you are blaming him.

So, even though Scripture clearly lays blame on Adam in Rom 5, it seems your position is to blame God for all sin, huh.

 

[GodsGrace]

An evangelical Arminian, J C Thibodaux, responded to John Piper's promotion of double-predestination, i.e. the redeemed are predestined to salvation and the damned are predestined to wrath, in his article, ‘Double-Talk From a Double Predestinarian. In this article, he wrote:

Again, per 5-point Calvinism, if you’re not among those elected to salvation, tough beans. God hasn’t chosen you, Christ didn’t die for you, and the Holy Spirit most certainly won’t regenerate you. You are lost without remedy, condemned already beyond repair, there isn’t a single ray of hope, and you never had a prayer. The accessibility of salvation to you is absolute zero. Nothing. Zilch. Nada. So how can a person to whom salvation isn’t even remotely applicable have any sort of “opportunity” to be saved?

Put even more simply, if Christ didn’t die for the forgiveness of one’s sins in any sense, then there can never be an “opportunity to be saved” for him, because there is no way to be saved unless Christ died to forgive his sins.

Such doublespeak is strong cause to question Piper’s personal theology. If his determinist views are so repugnant that he has to “balance” them with concepts that flatly contradict his doctrine, then he’s essentially embraced cognitive dissonance. If you reject universalism, but believe that God still genuinely offers salvation to all men, then which is more consistent and less convoluted to believe?

1. Christ died provisionally for the sins of all, such that any who believe in Him will be forgiven.

2. Or Piper’s view, where if you’re not one of the elect, you’re given an “opportunity” that you can’t possibly take, to accept an “offer” of salvation from God that isn’t really His will that you accept, just so you’ll have a “chance” to obtain faith that isn’t even accessible to you, wrought by a Savior who didn’t die to forgive your sins, but whose death fortunately did provide “grace” that will inevitably backfire and condemn you even more.​

Makes perfect sense. Where do I sign?​

I've signed up to #1 because of its biblical support (which I'll post in the next entry).

Oz

This post and no. 49 are the reasons I truly dislike Calvinism.
I don't even argue it anymore because I find it upsetting that anyone could believe in a God that would have the character to allow SOME to be saved through HIS own will alone, and SOME to go to an eternal punishment because HE so desires it.

It goes so against the God I know and love that none of Calvinism could be accepted.

To say nothing of the fact that we would, in that case, have NO FREE WILL.

Then some will tell you that they don't believe in the principles of TULIP, but they like eternal salvation, or OSAS. How convenient!

A complete reading of the N.T. will show that Jesus did not only say to believe in Him, but He also said to DO a lot of works. Mathew 5 would be sufficient.

Leaving aside what the word "believe" means in the Greek. Trust, follow, copy, adhere to, etc. This word alone tells us what Jesus expects from us.

No one has yet to explain to me WHY eternal salvation is so important to them that every word has to be twisted to suit them. Like "fall away." A study is needed to understand this word??

The convenience is that one could live how he wants to and still be saved - this is not what the N.T. teaches.
We are to BELIEVE in Christ and follow Him to the best of our ability.

And God cannot be fooled.


Wondering

 

[JLB]

I understand that "believers" who don't accept that The Creator created "all things" as SCRIPTURE says, won't get it, and in fact can't get it. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Why do you keep posting about the Creator creating all things?

This is not the subject, but is an attempt by you to change the subject.

The discussion is about how sin entered the world.

You claim it was through God.

I said it was through Adam, based on this scripture.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12


Until you have a scripture that says sin entered the world through God, you are just grasping at the wind.

God made Adam.
God did not make Adam sin.

Sin did not enter the world through God.
Sin entered the world through Adam.

God did not tempt Adam to sin.
God did not entice Adam to sin.
God did not force Adam to sin.

Adam chose to disobey God.


JLB