Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[GodsGrace]

reba,

In Isa 45:7 you have quoted the KJV. The problem is with the bad translation of the Hebrew, ra, by the KJV translators.

Isaiah 45:7 (ESV) reads: ‘I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity. I am the LORD who does all these things’.

I have found Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe’s response to this verse to be most helpful (Geisler & Howe 1992:271-272):


Geisler & Howe (1992:272) summarise this as:

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
In the sense of sin: Moral evil, Perversity, Directly, Actuality of evil

GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
In the sense of calamity, Non-moral, evil Plagues, Indirectly, Possibility of evil

On a practical level, God is not the author of the evil paedophile who rapes children. God is the author of hurricanes, cyclones and tsunamis.

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N. L., & Howe, T. A. 1992. When critics ask:A popular handbook on Bible difficulties. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

How do you understand God to be the AUTHOR of hurricanes, etc?
The sin nature is in all - in man and in nature. Sin affects everything on the earth.
Even nature will be set free from the slavery to sin.
Romans 8:19-22

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

As noted prior, it is a general foul of Christian theology, to equate God, The Creator, to any "created" thing. He Is Over, Above and Greater than the 'sum' of any particular created things in His creation. And to give a somewhat petty analogy, God can indeed make a turd, but God is not that which He makes. The same analogy can be applied to the power of "evil." God can (and DID) make the power of evil. But God can not be equated to any "thing" or "power" so made under His Sovereign Above "all things" Dominion.

To equate God to any "created thing" is technically a form of pantheism.

See above. Can God make the power of evil to serve His Divine Purposes? Assuredly, this is so. This does not make God Himself what He created. I know this is a hard concept to come to grips with.


That's what we might be falsely led to believe, IF we do not believe He Is Superior to "all things." The power of evil can only exist if God Himself wanted it to be so. To say it otherwise makes God weak, powerless, unable to stop it. I don't buy those types of theological postures. My general rule is that "all things" serve The Maker of "all things."

What way they serve and how it pans out can only be known by Him, in full. We don't see these things on this side of the cross, Perfectly. It does help though, if we see the fact that He Is Perfect, above "all things."


I am not one to pit the O.T. against the N.T. That is an impossible theological road to travel. Yes, there is a distinct difference in "how" God dealt with man, O.T. and N.T.

God is not "kind" to natural man. This is part of what the O.T. shows us. But Grace and Truth are revealed to us, IN Christ, in the N.T. to those who call upon Him.

We've also heard this analogy, which I agree with, that the N.T. is the O.T., revealed, or the O.T. concealed what the N.T. revealed. And I generally agree with that sight. The Gospel is hidden to the natural man, those engagements in the O.T. And it is revealed in Christ, to the new man. The Gospel is NOT a favor to the 'natural man' as the people of Israel show us. This also carries forward to today. The Gospel is meant to bring an end to the natural man.

For citation purposes, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, and

Prov. 16:4, Prov. 26:10, Eccl. 1:13, Eccl. 9:3, Isa. 44:24

To see and understand "all things" is to see "all things" on both sides of the ledgers of good and evil, SERVING Him Who Is Greater, and IS PERFECT.

Pantheism, dualism.
Where did evil originate?
Can we serve a God that created evil?
What would be the purpose?
He's so selfish that He needs evil to make us appreciate Him or the good?
He's so mean as to create evil to make us suffer to teach us something or other?
He's so uncreative that He needs evil to give us a choice?

We delve into matters NO ONE here knows anything about because they were not around when God did His work in creating us, and He chose to let this knowledge be limited.

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

There are a limited set of choices that we engage whenever we start pulling things out of creation, claiming that God didn't create all things. Scripture says God created all things. Col. 1:16. That all things were made for His Pleasure. Rev. 4:11. And that God upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Hebrews 1:3.

To arrive at that conclusion, you are ignoring or censoring certain verses of Scripture. There are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God, e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave you and your theology of God creating everything, including evil?

It leaves you with promotion of this kind of theology that God is the creator of this:

Civilians from town of Ohrdruf were forced to view the bodies [of Holocaust victims]

It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claimed that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church. Irenaeus's, Against Heresies, is but one extensive example that refuted this false doctrine.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

In the New Covenant only God is responsible, He does everything.
All man has to do is to accept the atoning sacrifice of His son -

Uh ... that's not what Jesus said.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So be good for goodness sake
'cause Jesus Christ is coming to judge.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Pantheism, dualism.
Where did evil originate?

Evil is a power. Hab. 2:9. God created "all" powers. Col. 1:16.

Can we serve a God that created evil?

We know "evil" exists in Gods creation. We know it exists as a power. We know that God created all powers. It will remain a disingenous association to equate God to any 'created thing' or 'created power.' What we do know is that the power of evil will be put away.

We also know, for no uncertain fact that God made the knowledge of evil, and put it in the Garden.

Genesis 2:9
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What would be the purpose?

I might observe "evil" and it's deployment brings us many sights. One Gods Sovereignty over it, in it's deployment and uses, which deployments and usage is WELL documented in scripture. And more importantly that we would, from that Sovereign Exercise, come to also know His Mercy. I see evil power as Gods subservient, to this Divine Purpose and End.

We know His Mercy because He Himself has placed us in "need" of same. Romans 11:32. Hope is also a produce, fostered by being placed in adversity. Patience is also a produce. Longsuffering is also a produce. It is not that hard to see that the contrast does serve His Purposes.

He's so selfish that He needs evil to make us appreciate Him or the good?

Sorry. Equating God to a created power will never compute for me. I have contemplated Gods Perfection all my believing days, and have yet to define or capture what He Is. And I don't ever expect to, from my vantage point. Other than to know He Is Greater than the sum of "all things."

He's so mean as to create evil to make us suffer to teach us something or other?
He's so uncreative that He needs evil to give us a choice?

Whether we except it or not, evil is something that all of us have on our plates to deal with. This is also why I don't accept "human morality," even in it's very best practices, as an equal to or of what God Is. All people have "evil present" with them just as Paul did. Romans 7:21. This wipes out any "honest notions" about morality, because evil is present with us in any "external morality" practices. Yet we hear this type of "moral equivalency" to God, constantly. I think it's false equivalency. Whatever we do, we do with "evil present" with us. This is an "honest" sight.

God doesn't have Perfect human morality. He Is Perfect WELL beyond human morality equating. God Perfect is not something we can 'capture or define.' It's not even possible.

We delve into matters NO ONE here knows anything about because they were not around when God did His work in creating us, and He chose to let this knowledge be limited.

Wondering

We observe. We perceive. We practice. But none of what we do is Perfect in the God Perfect sense of the term. As Jesus Aptly noted:

Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

The balance of us take our seats at/from a much lower perspective.

The 'servant' is not greater than his Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

To arrive at that conclusion, you are ignoring or censoring certain verses of Scripture. There are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God, e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave you and your theology of God creating everything, including evil?

It leaves you with promotion of this kind of theology that God is the creator of this:

Civilians from town of Ohrdruf were forced to view the bodies [of Holocaust victims]

It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claimed that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church. Irenaeus's, Against Heresies, is but one extensive example that refuted this false doctrine.

Oz

It would be impossible for any human to worship and serve the God as described by some posters.
God must, by necessity, be good. If not, this would be a terrifying world indeed.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Uh ... that's not what Jesus said.

John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

So be good for goodness sake
'cause Jesus Christ is coming to judge.

iakov the fool

Jesus said we are to DO.
But to do, we must accept Him.
Our faith without works is dead. James 2:14
Jesus did not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it.
Mathew 5.

In the O.C. we were to follow the Law with our own efforts.
In the N.C. we are still required to follow the Law, but the Holy Spirit is our helper and paraclete.
Works do not save us, Jesus does. Works follow.

It's difficult to explain everything every time, but with all these differing opinions, it might be necessary...

Wondering

 

[smaller]

To arrive at that conclusion, you are ignoring or censoring certain verses of Scripture. There are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God, e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave you and your theology of God creating everything, including evil?

God created all things. There is no way around it. And please understand it is NOT 'my' theology. These are plain statements of both scripture and the Nicene creed.

It leaves you with promotion of this kind of theology that God is the creator of this:

Civilians from town of Ohrdruf were forced to view the bodies [of Holocaust victims]

It is an heretical doctrine of Gnosticism that claimed that God created evil. It was refuted over and over by the apologists in the early centuries of the Christian church. Irenaeus's, Against Heresies, is but one extensive example that refuted this false doctrine.

Oz

You can stack up whatever you please under Divine Perfection. None of it or the sum of all created things can ever be equated with God. Ever.

Where I won't go is into the "multiple creator" zone. A lot of people claim they adhere to the One Creator of "all things" sight, but few really end up actually "being there." As your posture proves.

In the end, we will all see that "all things" serve His Purposes, because He Is Sovereign, above "all things."

In the meantime, some will see Gods Wisdom in binding us so:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Some will be thankful for His Mercy in Christ, being called out from that binding, knowing that we NEEDED His Mercy, because of that binding.

Simple difference between thee and me, in our sights. I know I need Gods Mercy in Christ, because I, like Paul, have "evil present" with me. Romans 7:21.

God put me and made me in a place of need of Him.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[OzSpen]

How do you understand God to be the AUTHOR of hurricanes, etc?
The sin nature is in all - in man and in nature. Sin affects everything on the earth.
Even nature will be set free from the slavery to sin.
Romans 8:19-22

Wondering

Wondering,

I agree that sin affects creation and we can see it around us. However, who sends the weather? Noah should know that it was God who caused all that disaster on the whole of the earth.

I understand God as the AUTHOR of all weather. Here is some biblical evidence.

Deut 28:24 (ESV), ‘The Lord will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed.’.

Job 5:10 (ESV), ‘he (God) gives rain on the earth and sends waters on the fields’.

Job 28:23-27 (ESV), ‘God understands the way to it, and he knows its place. 24 For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens. 25 When he gave to the wind its weight and apportioned the waters by measure, 26 when he made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder, 27 then he saw it and declared it; he established it, and searched it out’.

Job 37:13 (ESV), ‘He [God] loads the thick cloud with moisture; the clouds scatter his lightning’.

Psalm 148:7-8 ESV), ‘Praise the Lord from the earth, you great sea creatures and all deeps, 8 fire and hail, snow and mist, stormy wind fulfilling his word!’

Isa 45:7 (ESV), ‘I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things’.

Amos 4:7 (ESV), ‘I also withheld the rain from you when there were yet three months to the harvest; I would send rain on one city, and send no rain on another city; one field would have rain, and the field on which it did not rain would wither’.

Oz

 

[smaller]

Wondering,

I agree that sin affects creation and we can see it around us.
Oz

And it is there, that your own posture fails. Sin dwells "in" our flesh. It is not "around us" but "in" our own flesh. Romans 7:17 & 20. It is not a question of you or I being "sinless." We are all on quite equal ground when it comes to sin dwelling in our flesh.

Paul teaches that we are NO BETTER than any other sinner. Romans 3:9

The man who was justified in Gods Eyes in Luke 18, was not the religious clown poser who thought he was better than the other sinners, Luke 18:11. It was the man who hung his head before his Maker, KNOWING that he was a sinner, in need of Gods Mercy. Luke 18:13-14.

This notion that sin is all around us, but is not in our own flesh, is a blinded sight. I consider it A CURSE from God, for anyone who has that sight.

 

[OzSpen]

God created all things. There is no way around it. And please understand it is NOT 'my' theology. These are plain statements of both scripture and the Nicene creed.

You can stack up whatever you please under Divine Perfection. None of it or the sum of all created things can ever be equated with God. Ever.

Where I won't go is into the "multiple creator" zone. A lot of people claim they adhere to the One Creator of "all things" sight, but few really end up actually "being there." As your posture proves.

In the end, we will all see that "all things" serve His Purposes, because He Is Sovereign, above "all things."

In the meantime, some will see Gods Wisdom in binding us so:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Some will be thankful for His Mercy in Christ, being called out from that binding, knowing that we NEEDED His Mercy, because of that binding.

Simple difference between thee and me, in our sights. I know I need Gods Mercy in Christ, because I, like Paul, have "evil present" with me. Romans 7:21.

God put me and made me in a place of need of Him.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Here you refuse to deal with the Scriptures and issues I raise.

There are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God, e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave you and your theology of God creating everything, including evil?

God is 'of purer eyes than to see evil'. There is 'no darkness in God', but there is darkness and evil in the God you are presenting here.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Sin affects everything on the earth. Even nature will be set free from the slavery to sin.
Romans 8:19-22

Wondering

Wondering,

I agree that sin affects everything on earth but it is the Lord who causes the weather, including hurricanes, cyclones and tsunamis (accompanied by earthquakes).

Matt 5:45 (NIV) lays the blame for the weather with God, the Father: 'He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous'.

Rom 8:19-22 (ESV) states:

19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

When the creation is set free from its bondage to sin, there will be no more diseased roses (as in my front garden), stunted trees will be gone, Zika virus will not exist, diseased pawpaws will not happen, etc.

However, as long as human beings are on the earth - until the 'revealing of the sons of God' - God sends the rain, including calamities (e.g. hurricane Matthew, cyclone Tracy, Indian Ocean tsunami of 2004, etc). I've given you verses in support of God sending the weather.

Oz

 

[smaller]

Here you refuse to deal with the Scriptures and issues I raise.

There are other Scriptures that state that there is no darkness in God, e.g. 1 John 1:5 ESV). Hab. 1:13 (ESV) states that “You who are of purer eyes than to see evil”. James 1:13 (ESV) confirms that “God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one”. So where does this leave you and your theology of God creating everything, including evil?

God is 'of purer eyes than to see evil'. There is 'no darkness in God', but there is darkness and evil in the God you are presenting here.

Oz

If you follow the dialog in Hab. 1:13, which you claim above is a fact from God, it's not. It's Habbakuk asking God questions. The Lord answers directly starting in chapter 2, beginning in vs. 2, and concludes with A Declaration of His Sovereignty over the matters:

13 Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?

Regarding Gods tempting man, again, there is a direct offsetting polar opposite claim in Gen. 22:1, where God DID tempt Abraham. So, who is right? Gen. 22:1 or James.

I will contend that God DOES tempt the tempter IN MAN. Therefore God tempts NO MAN. But God does deal with the "adversaries" IN MAN that are not man, much differently and with much adversity and TEMPTATIONs.

It is only by bringing "all" the players to the drama, do we get 'truthful' pictures from scripture. Most people see just man as a stand alone entity in the scriptures. That is NOT how scriptures present MAN.

Have a close look at Paul, for an example:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In the above, there is Paul, Gods child. And there is an adversary in the flesh of Paul that is not Paul. For further elaboration see that "temptation" was in the flesh of Paul. Gal. 3:13-14. Does the "tempter tempt?" Assuredly so.

Does God deal with the adversaries in the 'same way' as His children? Never.

There are two completely different workings of GOD, transpiring. One uplifting. The other putting down, often by "arousal." See Romans 7:13 and 1 Cor. 15:56 for examples of what Gods Words do to Gods enemies, the devil and his messengers.

For further exposure, see Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 to see the "real" construct of MAN. What you or any should SEE is more than "just and only" man.

 

[OzSpen]

Pantheism, dualism.
Where did evil originate?
Can we serve a God that created evil?
What would be the purpose?
He's so selfish that He needs evil to make us appreciate Him or the good?
He's so mean as to create evil to make us suffer to teach us something or other?
He's so uncreative that He needs evil to give us a choice?

We delve into matters NO ONE here knows anything about because they were not around when God did His work in creating us, and He chose to let this knowledge be limited.

Wondering

Wondering,

Genesis 2:16-17 (ESV) gives us a beginning insight into what caused evil: '16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

From the beginning of time, God gave human beings the freedom of choice to do good or evil. What did Adam do?

What was the outcome? Gen 3:6-7 (ESV) tells us: '6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths'.

It was the woman guided by the serpent who chose to eat and so did Adam. The cause of evil in this world is human freedom to choose between good and evil. God doesn't cause paedophiles to rape, murderers to kill, or thieves to steal.

That is done by human beings who choose to practise evil. God has created a universe of human beings with free will to commit the destruction of the twin towers in NYC, Hitler's Holocaust in Germany, Mussolini's Italy, the evil under Stalin, Idi Amin and Pol Pot, and now the ISIL terrorists. Human beings create evil on the earth but God sends the weather.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

If you follow the dialog in Hab. 1:13, which you claim above is a fact from God, it's not. It's Habbakuk asking God questions. The Lord answers directly starting in chapter 2, beginning in vs. 2, and concludes with A Declaration of His Sovereignty over the matters:

13 Behold, is it not of the Lord of hosts that the people shall labour in the very fire, and the people shall weary themselves for very vanity?

What do Hab 1:12-13 (ESV) state? '

Are you not from everlasting,
O Lord my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgement,
and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof.
13 You who are of purer eyes than to see evil
and cannot look at wrong,
why do you idly look at traitors
and remain silent when the wicked swallows up
the man more righteous than he?​

The answer to each of these questions is, 'Yes':

• You are from everlasting, O Lord my God;
• You are my Holy One;
  
• We shall not die;
• O Lord, you have ordained them as judgment;
• The Lord, the Rock, is of purer eyes than to see evil;
• He cannot look at wrong.

These are the facts that emerge from this passage. If I'm to accept your exposition, I will not be able to affirm that the Lord God is the Holy One who is from everlasting and he has purer eyes to see evil. I refuse to do that as this passage teaches these attributes of God in question form.

Do you agree that God is from everlasting and is holy and has purer eyes than to see evil?

You wander off into other topics that I didn't raise. I'm not going there. When you do this, I will ignore what you state about these extras - which are red herrings.

Oz

 

[FreeGrace]

I believe they have been dismissed because they don't fit the teachings of your religion.

I don't have religion. I have the Lord Jesus Christ, who died for my sins and forgave me and gave me eternal life when I put my faith in Him.

Since you are unable or unwilling to understand what has been repeatedly provided for you, I see no reason to attempt to induce you to see what you have no desire to see.

I have seen quite clearly what has been repeatedly provided for me, none of which SAYS what is being claimed about the verses.

Einstein is supposed to have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. I respectfully decline your invitation to embark upon that insanity.

iakov the fool

Your whole side does nothing other than repeating the same thing over and over. Maybe they just don't expect a different result.

The reason I repeat God's Word about eternal security is in the hope that the Holy Spirit will shine some light through. That's not insanity.

But, speaking of insanity, is insanity logical or illogical?[/QUOTE]

 

[smaller]

What do Hab 1:12-13 (ESV) state? '

Are you not from everlasting,
O Lord my God, my Holy One?
We shall not die.
O Lord, you have ordained them as a judgement,
and you, O Rock, have established them for reproof.
13 You who are of purer eyes than to see evil
and cannot look at wrong,
why do you idly look at traitors
and remain silent when the wicked swallows up
the man more righteous than he?​

The answer to each of these questions is, 'Yes':

• You are from everlasting, O Lord my God;
• You are my Holy One;
  
• We shall not die;
• O Lord, you have ordained them as judgment;
• The Lord, the Rock, is of purer eyes than to see evil;
• He cannot look at wrong.

These are the facts that emerge from this passage. If I'm to accept your exposition, I will not be able to affirm that the Lord God is the Holy One who is from everlasting and he has purer eyes to see evil. I refuse to do that as this passage teaches these attributes of God in question form.

God answers the prophet's queries in chapter 2, starting in vs. 2, as prior noted, and sums it with a Declaration of fact in vs. 13, that those things were of the LORD.

By the end of chapter 2, we are advised the seat we are to take:

20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

This is the identical conclusion reached and taught by Paul, in Romans 3:19

We really don't have a thing to say about things in the face of Divine Sovereignty.

Do you agree that God is from everlasting and is holy and has purer eyes than to see evil?
Oz

There are many things that should obvious occur to us. God was in Christ. Did The Spirit of God in Christ come and sit and meet sinners? Of course. Did God see and look upon sin? Of course. There are no surprises to God.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The notion that God is so Holy that He Is BLIND and can't look upon evil or sin is utter nonsense. Nothing is 'hidden' from Him in His Own creation. Far far from it. This creation is not some random coalition of "freewill agents" whatsoever. As if it is some big accident of "freewill" all functioning apart and away from God. That entire notion, I reject. Rev. 4:11. Every "thing" that is, serves Him who made it. One way or another.

 

[OzSpen]

It would be impossible for any human to worship and serve the God as described by some posters.
God must, by necessity, be good. If not, this would be a terrifying world indeed.

Wondering

I agree and I've written a couple of articles on my homepage about such a God.

God's goodness is an indispensable dimension of his attributes. See: Can God do anything and everything? You can do a search on my homepage for those other articles.

See: Limited atonement conflicts with God’s goodness

However, here's one of the difficulties for us as human beings with limited understanding. We do not understand the full dimensions of how God's sovereignty works in our contemporary world. I wish God would tell us why he sent hurricane Matthew to devastate Haiti and the USA. I know of some of the religious dimensions of Haiti and the way the USA (and Australia) are drifting away from God's standards. I don't see the internals of why God sends judgment or destruction when he does.

On the personal level, I suffered 3 bouts of rheumatic fever as a child of 6, 10 and 12 years that left me with leaking heart valves all of my life. Mitral fibrillation has been the story of my life. The pain of rheumatic fever was horrific and I still have it in my mind.

Here I sit as an older man who has had 5 open-heart (yes, FIVE), valve replacement surgeries, the last one in 2013. I ask, 'Lord, why this pain and disability?' I have another disability that developed after one of my heart surgeries. I live with a body that has been devastated by the sin in creation (thanks to Adam & Eve and the serpent and free will).

I thank God that he has given me this much life to be interacting on this forum.

Blessings,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

God answers the prophet's queries in chapter 2, starting in vs. 2, as prior noted, and sums it with a Declaration of fact in vs. 13, that those things were of the LORD.

By the end of chapter 2, we are advised the seat we are to take:

20 But the Lord is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

This is the identical conclusion reached and taught by Paul, in Romans 3:19

We really don't have a thing to say about things in the face of Divine Sovereignty.


There are many things that should obvious occur to us. God was in Christ. Did The Spirit of God in Christ come and sit and meet sinners? Of course. Did God see and look upon sin? Of course. There are no surprises to God.

Hebrews 4:13
Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

The notion that God is so Holy that He Is BLIND and can't look upon evil or sin is utter nonsense. Nothing is 'hidden' from Him in His Own creation. Far far from it. This creation is not some random coalition of "freewill agents" whatsoever. As if it is some big accident of "freewill" all functioning apart and away from God. That entire notion, I reject. Rev. 4:11. Every "thing" that is, serves Him who made it. One way or another.

You continue to refuse to deal with what I write. God's holiness refers to his perfection.

You stated: 'The notion that God is so Holy that He Is BLIND and can't look upon evil or sin is utter nonsense'. At no point have I stated that. It's your straw man of fallacious reasoning against me. I did cite Scripture and you seem to be rejecting that.

If you continue to respond with straw men or red herrings, I will not respond. We cannot have a logical conversation when you do this.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

I don't have religion.

That's too bad. James said; "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (1:27 RSV)
A system of beliefs, such as the apostles creed or the Nicaea-Constantinople creed is a religion.

I have seen quite clearly what has been repeatedly provided for me, none of which SAYS what is being claimed about the verses.

So you have said.
And so you cling to the modern invention of OSAS.
It's really not that important.

Your whole side does nothing other than repeating the same thing over and over.

AS I said, I have ceased to present you with the scripture which refutes the "eternal security" invention. You don't see it. There's nothing I can do about that and there is apparently no use in showing you what you don't see.

I see no reason to go on.