Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JLB]

May God bless your work.

Do you realize he is teaching that sin came from God, and entered the world because God "bound Adam over to sin".

That God created Adam sinful.


Here is what the scripture says...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12



JLB

 

[smaller]

No one Ever claimed we were personally better than Paul.

This is just another weak logical fallacy:

FALSE CAUSE -

Presuming that a real or perceived relationship between
things means that one is the cause of the other.
Many people confuse correlation (things happening together or in sequence)
for causation (that one thing actually causes the other to happen). Sometimes
correlation is coincidental, or it may be attributable to a common cause.
Pointing to a fancy chart, Roger shows how temperatures have been rising over
the past few centuries, whilst at the same time the numbers of pirates have
been decreasing; thus pirates cool the world and global warming is a hoax.

JLB

God, our Creator, created all things. He Is First and Only Cause of "all things" in His Own creation. No chump change 'created thing' will convince me otherwise.

"The Doctrine Of God"

The Nicene Creed begins:

“I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.”

 

[smaller]

Do you realize he is teaching that sin came from God, and entered the world because God "bound Adam over to sin".

That God created Adam sinful.

I never equated Adam with sin, EVER. Sin did however dwell in the flesh of Adam, no differently than in the flesh of you or I or any person except God Himself in the flesh.

That sin was exactly as Paul describes, NO MORE I. Romans 7:17 & 20. Was NO MORE I Adam? Never. Adam was Gods own son. Luke 3:38. I do not slur, blame and accuse Gods son, as most of you are falsely led to do and perform, because you do not see SIN as Paul tells us SIN is. NO MORE I.

Here is what the scripture says...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

JLB

NO MORE I was in the flesh of the natural man, Adam, no question about it. And in the flesh of every person who has ever lived since, other than the Perfect Sinless Lamb of God while He was in flesh.

And "it," "NO MORE I" did not MAKE itself nor did Adam make it.

Job 2:
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Why did Job NOT SIN by making that claim? Because it is a truthful claim.

 

[JLB]

I never equated Adam with sin, EVER.

That is your mistake.

You equate sin with God rather than Adam.

NO MORE I was in the flesh of the natural man, Adam, no question about it. And in the flesh of every person who has ever lived since, other than the Perfect Sinless Lamb of God while He was in flesh.

Adam was not created with sin.

Sin entered the world through Adam and his disobedience.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:29-31

God did not make Adam with evil, as He said EVERYTHING He had made was good, not evil but GOOD.


The earth had no sin until Adam's disobedience to God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Job 2:
10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?
In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Why did Job NOT SIN by making that claim? Because it is a truthful claim.

False!

The evil did not come from God but from Satan.

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?”

Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.”

4 So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. 5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

6 And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”

7 So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. 8 And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes.

9 Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast to your integrity? Curse God and die!”

10 But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips. Job 2:1-10


Job did not curse God.


Who put boils upon Job?

1. God
2. Satan


JLB

 

[OzSpen]

God created all things. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and numerous other scriptures. I don't know why this is so difficult for you to understand. Well, I do, but that's beside the point.

By that kind of statement are you supporting the view that God created evil, including paedophiles to rape children and terrorists to blow people into smithereens?

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you realize he is teaching that sin came from God, and entered the world because God "bound Adam over to sin".

Citation please.
Where does scripture say that?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

That says MAN brought sin into the world, not God.

 

[FreeGrace]

This post and no. 49 are the reasons I truly dislike Calvinism.
I don't even argue it anymore because I find it upsetting that anyone could believe in a God that would have the character to allow SOME to be saved through HIS own will alone, and SOME to go to an eternal punishment because HE so desires it.

Which cannot be supported from Scripture.

It goes so against the God I know and love that none of Calvinism could be accepted.

Correct.

To say nothing of the fact that we would, in that case, have NO FREE WILL.

Then some will tell you that they don't believe in the principles of TULIP, but they like eternal salvation, or OSAS. How convenient!

This isn't about what one 'likes'. It's about what the Word of God has promised. While Calvinism isn't biblical, eternal security is.

A complete reading of the N.T. will show that Jesus did not only say to believe in Him, but He also said to DO a lot of works. Mathew 5 would be sufficient.

Let's just understand something. He said to believe in Him for eternal life. And to DO a lot of works for reward.

Is your comment suggesting or outright claiming that one must DO a lot of works to be saved??? I recommend reading both Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9.
Then, research the word 'grace'. It means unmerited favor. That is something that CANNOT be earned. That is how we are saved. By grace. Jesus Christ did ALL the work for salvation. All we can do is receive salvation by grace through faith.

No one has yet to explain to me WHY eternal salvation is so important to them that every word has to be twisted to suit them. Like "fall away." A study is needed to understand this word??

Seems so. In Luke 8:13, it is clear what it means to 'fall away'. It means to fall away from believing, not to fall away from salvation.

The convenience is that one could live how he wants to and still be saved - this is not what the N.T. teaches.

I know this really grinds the Arminian minded. That someone is going to "get away with it". However what the NT teaches is that those of God's children who rebel, fall away, etc will face a miserable life and then enter eternity without any rewards. They'll be IN heaven, but they won't be co-heirs of Christ (Rom 8:17b) or rule with Christ (2 Tim 2:12).

They will be IN heaven but won't be part of His rulership IN heaven.

We are to BELIEVE in Christ and follow Him to the best of our ability.

If one wants to add "to the best of our ability" as part of the means of salvation, such a one has violated clear Scripture.

And God cannot be fooled.
Wondering

Not by Calvinists, and not by Arminians.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

You are correct in that Lucifer was the "first cause" of sin in heaven. But, even though he was the first cause of sin, it was Adam that was the first cause of sin in man. Adam sinned willfully and that brought "spiritual death" to all.

I absolutely agree!! I was just pointing out where sin started from.

 

[smaller]

It seems rather impossible to have a serious discussion with you, since simply repeating statements that aren't relevant to the discussion. Again, not relevant because no one has even tried to remove God's hands from anything. And, btw, there is no so-called "equation" involved in creation. How about using normal and descriptive words when trying to communicate. Why should anyone accept this statement? The Bible disagrees with your statement. Please prove that Satan was present when God created Adam. Or there is no reason to accept your claim. Yes, I agree. Your claims are absurd. I don't recall going through any 'drills' with anyone. How about just saying "we've been through this before" or something nearly as normal. Since it's only potential, it isn't ANYTHING. Not good or bad. What's bad is disobedience, which God did not create, nor force Adam into. You're forgetting one simple thing. We've been talking about at creation. There was NO deception at creation of Adam. Or the woman. That happened later. So your whole premise is way off base, obviously. Yet, you cannot prove your claims from Scripture. Again, I agree: your claims are false.Thus demonstrating a very serious misunderstanding. Why make such a non-relevant statement? Who has claimed that Adam made himself??

I've met you step by step with SCRIPTURE and explanations. You meet me in exchange with pointless accusations and no scripture, such as above.

[edited by staff]

 

[smaller]

By that kind of statement are you supporting the view that God created evil, including paedophiles to rape children and terrorists to blow people into smithereens?

There are a limited set of choices that we engage whenever we start pulling things out of creation, claiming that God didn't create all things. Scripture says God created all things. Col. 1:16. That all things were made for His Pleasure. Rev. 4:11. And that God upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Hebrews 1:3.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

The "all things" scriptures do present problems for people trying to selectively pluck things out, so as to somehow protect their God from those statements.

If you'd care to scroll back and pick up the presentations and observations from scripture that I've cited and commented on, feel free to respond with specific critique. I'm a big boy. I can take it.

My 'general' observation as it pertains to the thread topic, is that God DID make the devil and his messengers, predetermined them to be evil, made them do what they do, made also the power of evil and the power of death, and equally predestined them all to end up in the LoF.

Hence His Predestination of that particular entity class and those powers, to the LoF.

 

[smaller]

You don't observe scriptural presentations, as you have "made up" your on doctrine, while ignoring what the scripture says.

I do believe God created all things, without ANY exception. Perhaps if you could focus on that one simple sight and tell me why I should not believe God created all things you'd have a point. A lot of believers give these types of scriptures "lip service" but they really don't believe that's the case. There are quite a few scriptures in the O.T. and the N.T. that present this to be the case. I have no need to deny them. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 being a couple of my favorites along with Acts 17:25.

I do most seriously believe that God is Actively Involved with every single thing that transpires within His creation. Both good and evil. And I can't logically insulate/isolate God from anything that transpires in His creation.

This should not be hard understanding, above, for you to grasp. It is SCRIPTURAL.

The scripture plainly says, through one man sin entered the world.

I've addressed this with you already, many many times. With specifics. I noted just a post or two back that sin is adverse spiritual in nature, NOT forensic. Paul termed it "NO MORE I" therefore it was not ADAM anymore than it was PAUL. Romans 7:17 & 20. Therefore indwelling SIN is an "invisible" power. Did the flesh of Adam contain indwelling sin? Absolutely it DID. From the time God spoke His first Words to Adam, the spirit of disobedience entered his flesh. Mark 4:15. But was Adam the cause or "creator" of SIN? Absolutely NOT.

You say it was through God that sin entered the world, because He created Adam with a evil dwelling in Him,

I've said this to you at least twice already. I NEVER said Adam was evil. I cited the exact opposite, from the scriptures, that Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. Do you hear me calling Adam EVIL? Uh, far from it. So give it up. You are not hearing.

[evil present with him] which you say is actually Satan dwelling in His flesh.

I have no doubts whatsoever that the tempter TEMPTS internally, and that this working IS the working of EVIL PRESENT within mans MIND. Evil thoughts are sin. They DO defile us. And sin is and will remain "of the devil."

And keep in mind, we have point blank proof of this with many people in the Bible, particularly in the N.T. Satan spoke from Peters lips. Matt. 16:23. Satan 'entered' Judas, Luke 22:3, John 13:27.

We also have overwhelming scriptural evidence that Satan, the god of this world, the prince of the power of the air, the spirit of disobedience DOES blind all unbelievers minds, and holds them CAPTIVE in that unbelief. Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, to cite but a few.

So if your claim is that there is no scriptural precedent for this, I'd beg to say you are sadly mistaken.

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

The works of Satan are addressed as being in ALL the churches of Rev. 2-3.

Rev. 13:
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

So to act like any of this is some big surprise would only arise from not reading the obvious.

When I give you the scripture that says God created all things and they were good, rather than evil, you ignore it as well.

No, I addressed this SPECIFICALLY. The only way to view all the things in the Garden as "very good" is with Gods Own Hands upon the entirety of the things therein. And I cited, again, specifically, Romans 8:28.

But it is openly provable that not all things in the Garden, in and of themselves were VERY GOOD. And for this I cited that the knowledge of EVIL was in the Garden. Made by God no less. From Gen. 2:9. The serpent/tempter/deceiver was in the Garden. Very good you say? I think exactly NOT. There was a death threat in the Garden, from Gods Own Lips. Very good you say? I think NOT. Deception was in the Garden. Very good you say? I think NOT.

To equate any of this as only 'very good' can only be possible IF God was entirely involved and in control of the entirety, from the start.

Otherwise, I'd equate the events with putting a toddler in a locked room with a loaded and cocked 457 magnum, a bullet in the chamber, a hair trigger and a nipple on the end of the barrel.

Things can only be very good WITH GODS OWN HANDS and WORKINGS upon the entirety of His creation. But this does not mean everything in creation was very good whatsoever, in and of itself. You have merely REMOVED God from the events, as usual.

I also cited, specifically, the conditions of Adams making, from 1 Cor. 15:42-46. Your claim was that none of that was the case until after Adam sinned. But that is mentioned NOWHERE in that scriptural description. Your own mind put it there to uphold the creation story you happened to buy into and nothing more. I just don't buy "your story." There are more scripturally accurate sights to be had.

In the final analysis, I believe God specifically created the devil and his own, an evil agent, a killer, a deceiver, a thief, a destroyer, John 8:44, John 10:10 and made that bad actor specifically to DESTROY the flesh bodies of men by death.

When God is finished "using them" they and their powers will be permanently eradicated/tortured, take your pick, in the LoF. And that ALL of this was PREDESTINED in Gods Mind, always therein.

None of it was some big surprise to God. There was no "plan B."

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"While Calvinism isn't biblical, eternal security is."

Nonsense.

Is your system of perspicacity based on logic or illogic? If illogic, then there isn't anything more to discuss. However, if it is based on logic, then please consider this logic.

Logic says that if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

Regarding Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A = eternal life
B = gift of God

Regarding Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

B = gifts of God
C = irrevocable

Therefore,

If A (eternal life) = B (a gift of God) and they DO

and, if B ( gifts of God) = C (irrevocable) and they DO,

Then, A (eternal life) = C (irrevocable).

The logic is undeniable.

 

[FreeGrace]

I've met you step by step with SCRIPTURE and explanations.

Anyone can quote any Scripture and provide an explanation. The key is to understand what the verses mean. You've not done that yet.

I said this:
"It seems rather impossible to have a serious discussion with you, since simply repeating statements that aren't relevant to the discussion. Again, not relevant because no one has even tried to remove God's hands from anything. And, btw, there is no so-called "equation" involved in creation. How about using normal and descriptive words when trying to communicate. Why should anyone accept this statement? The Bible disagrees with your statement. Please prove that Satan was present when God created Adam. Or there is no reason to accept your claim. Yes, I agree. Your claims are absurd. I don't recall going through any 'drills' with anyone. How about just saying "we've been through this before" or something nearly as normal. Since it's only potential, it isn't ANYTHING. Not good or bad. What's bad is disobedience, which God did not create, nor force Adam into. You're forgetting one simple thing. We've been talking about at creation. There was NO deception at creation of Adam. Or the woman. That happened later. So your whole premise is way off base, obviously. Yet, you cannot prove your claims from Scripture. Again, I agree: your claims are false.Thus demonstrating a very serious misunderstanding. Why make such a non-relevant statement? Who has claimed that Adam made himself??"
[edited by staff]

 

[OzSpen]

There are a limited set of choices that we engage whenever we start pulling things out of creation, claiming that God didn't create all things. Scripture says God created all things. Col. 1:16. That all things were made for His Pleasure. Rev. 4:11. And that God upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Hebrews 1:3.

Acts 17:
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

The "all things" scriptures do present problems for people trying to selectively pluck things out, so as to somehow protect their God from those statements.

If you'd care to scroll back and pick up the presentations and observations from scripture that I've cited and commented on, feel free to respond with specific critique. I'm a big boy. I can take it.

My 'general' observation as it pertains to the thread topic, is that God DID make the devil and his messengers, predetermined them to be evil, made them do what they do, made also the power of evil and the power of death, and equally predestined them all to end up in the LoF.

Hence His Predestination of that particular entity class and those powers, to the LoF.

So you are affirming that God predetermined paedophiles to rape children and terrorists to demolish the twin towers, and ISIS to slaughter people wherever.

You claim that 'Scripture says God created all things'. Where does it say he created paedophiles to rape children?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"While Calvinism isn't biblical, eternal security is."

Is your system of perspicacity based on logic or illogic? If illogic, then there isn't anything more to discuss. However, if it is based on logic, then please consider this logic.

Logic says that if A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

Regarding Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A = eternal life
B = gift of God

Regarding Rom 11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

B = gifts of God
C = irrevocable

Therefore,

If A (eternal life) = B (a gift of God) and they DO

and, if B ( gifts of God) = C (irrevocable) and they DO,

Then, A (eternal life) = C (irrevocable).

The logic is undeniable.

Perspicacity?
Wow.

You keep giving this mathematical equation.
Jesus wasn't into math except that He liked numbers in the sense of letting us know how to get as many souls as possible into God's presence for eternity.

I believe you and I will be there together - this is not my concern.
My concern is for a new Christian reading along who can get that idea you dislike that he can do whatever he wants to and still be saved. This is just not true. Would you agree to this?

We discussed sanctification and how it differs from justification but you didn't seem too interested in this theological fact.

I also brought up the old covenant and the new covenant but you're not too interested in this either.
What you are interested in is plucking verses out of the NT that SEEM to agree with your pemise.
You've done the same with Calvinism - picking only the parts of it that you agree with.

Romans 6:23 says we have eternal life IN Christ.
If we are IN Christ then we BELIEVE in Him and have security.

If we do not BELIEVE (follow, trust) IN Christ, then we do Not have security.

No use to post scripture. You're using logic.
The above is not only correct but very logical.


Wondering

 

[JLB]

I do believe God created all things, without ANY exception.

• God created all things... Good!

• God did not create all things... Evil!

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31


This is the account of the creation that God had made.

God made everything... Good.



JLB

 

[JLB]

The loss of salvation view is totally illogical. It's believed IN SPITE of no verses that make that claim.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who do not remain connected to Jesus, are thrown into the fire and burned.



JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

When I need a puppet to give a bad acting job of what I say, I'll pull your strings, directly. In the meantime don't waste your breath trying to be my representative.

I observe scriptural presentations, period.

IF Gods Word says He made all things, and you are offended that God made the power of evil or Satan and "personally" want to extract those "things" "powers" from the equations, I would NOT by any means consider such attempts legitimate in the face of obvious terminology to the contrary. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and even the Nicene creed accepts this as TRUTH of scripture and of reality, even if you don't.

Disagreeing with JLB's contrary to scripture claims does not a heretic make.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

[edited by staff]
Adam was created innocent, without sin. He was not created sinful. Colossians does not state that God created sin. It states that he created all things, and sin is not a thing, but a deficiency, a missing the mark.

If Revelation 4:11 states that God created sin, then does the bible lie? The last phrase states that all things God created were for his pleasure; so does God have pleasure in sin? What does Ezekiel 18:32 state: " For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the LORD GOD, wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

 

[WIP]

Closed for cleaning. Too many personal remarks and accusations.