Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

Smaller won't answer this question, because he want's to teach that the answer is B. That sin came into the human race from God.

There is no credible answer to any scriptural question that seeks to eliminate The Creator from creation.

Your position fosters multiple creators. Scripture presents "nothing" exists in creation without Gods Specific Directives, creating it so.

Your position proposes that Satan, the power of evil, sin, confusion, Adam as a sinner, disobedience, deception, lusts, the power of death all self created apart from, void from, disconnected from any Hand/Role/Implication/Continuing Involvement/First Cause of God whatsoever as The Creator of "all things," directly against what Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and many others state, that God created "all things."

I don't accept polytheism, man as creator, other things as creators. That's all there is to it.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

JLB, your posture is this:

Who created ? (insert whatever/whoever other than God for A)

A. Man
B. God

And you expect A for the answer? It'll never happen.

 

[Free]

I said:
"I don't have religion."

Are you aware that religion doesn't save anyone?? My point was clear, and I noticed the part that you failed to post. Which isn't exactly all that honest.


I disagree with your definition. Christianity is NOT a religion, regardless of what the masses think about it.

Christianity is a religion.

Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with the God of creation, through His Son, Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.
All religions are a works based system of salvation. Totally different than Christianity

You are making up your own definition of religion to exclude Christianity and then using it to conclude that Christianity isn't a religion. This is known as circular reasoning.

 

[FreeGrace]

Christianity is a religion.

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. And I gave my reasons for why Christianity is not a religion. Even James did not describe Christianity as a religion.

You are making up your own definition of religion to exclude Christianity and then using it to conclude that Christianity isn't a religion. This is known as circular reasoning.

This is totally untrue. What "definition" have I made up? Do you think that religions are based on grace and relationship? Name just one.

My point was clear: Christianity STANDS APART from ALL religions. Precisely because of grace. What religion includes salvation by grace? None of them. All of them are based on works in some form.

How can Christians properly share Christianity with the world if they don't understand the significant difference between Christianity and ALL religions? They can't.

 

[Free]

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. And I gave my reasons for why Christianity is not a religion.

From that one post, you gave your own definition of religion, which is circular.

Even James did not describe Christianity as a religion.

That is irrelevant. The point is that James gives a definition of good religion and it appears to be works based, at least in part.

This is totally untrue. What "definition" have I made up?

"All religions are a works based system of salvation."

Look at any definition of "religion" from a dictionary or sociological textbook and I can all but guarantee that Christianity fits that definition. As Jim correctly stated, the simplest definition of religion is a system of beliefs. Do you deny that Christianity is a system of beliefs?

Do you think that religions are based on grace and relationship? Name just one.

My point was clear: Christianity STANDS APART from ALL religions. Precisely because of grace. What religion includes salvation by grace? None of them. All of them are based on works in some form.

Which is all irrelevant to the definition of "religion".

How can Christians properly share Christianity with the world if they don't understand the significant difference between Christianity and ALL religions? They can't.

Do you think non-Christians will listen to you if you start out by disagreeing with them that Christianity is a religion? Would it not be better to acknowledge that Christianity is a religion and then discuss what sets it apart from the rest?

 

[dirtfarmer]

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. And I gave my reasons for why Christianity is not a religion. Even James did not describe Christianity as a religion.


This is totally untrue. What "definition" have I made up? Do you think that religions are based on grace and relationship? Name just one.

My point was clear: Christianity STANDS APART from ALL religions. Precisely because of grace. What religion includes salvation by grace? None of them. All of them are based on works in some form.

How can Christians properly share Christianity with the world if they don't understand the significant difference between Christianity and ALL religions? They can't.

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

I agree that Christianity stands apart from all religions, but not because of grace, but because of the resurrection of the one on whom it is founded. Christianity is life, not a belief based on laws to keep or a moral code in order to receive salvation. It dying to self and being resurrected with the life of the one who died in our place. No other form of worship is based on a resurrected "founder".

 

[FreeGrace]

From that one post, you gave your own definition of religion, which is circular.

Please explain how it was circular. What I did was point out the FACT that every religion is based on works for salvation, which is UNLIKE Christianity, whereby salvation is by GRACE, through faith. Grace is unmerited favor.

That is irrelevant. The point is that James gives a definition of good religion and it appears to be works based, at least in part.

Therefore, relevant to my point. Religion is works based. Christianity is NOT, relative to salvation.

"All religions are a works based system of salvation."

Other than Christianity, please identify one religion that is not based on works for salvation. If that can't be done, then my point stands.

Look at any definition of "religion" from a dictionary or sociological textbook and I can all but guarantee that Christianity fits that definition.

Of course. All defined by generally secular people. Not by evangelicals. Satan wants everyone to think that Christianity is just one more religion, of which all religions are equal and will lead to God. Of which nothing could be farther from the truth.

As Jim correctly stated, the simplest definition of religion is a system of beliefs. Do you deny that Christianity is a system of beliefs?

Of course it is, but my definition is way more functional, and designed to illuminate the very significant difference between Christianity and all religions.

Which is all irrelevant to the definition of "religion".

Not to my functional definition.

Do you think non-Christians will listen to you if you start out by disagreeing with them that Christianity is a religion? Would it not be better to acknowledge that Christianity is a religion and then discuss what sets it apart from the rest?

I think it would get one's attention more easily to make the point that Christianity stands apart from al religions. That statement would raise the curiosity of others to know WHY it is.

The very point that Christianity is "set apart from the rest" shows that it is totaly different. Hence, not a religion. In a separate category. Which is my point.[/QUOTE]

 

[FreeGrace]

hello FreeGrace, dirtfarmer here

I agree that Christianity stands apart from all religions, but not because of grace, but because of the resurrection of the one on whom it is founded.

Yes, that is true as well. But even Christ's resurrection is on behalf of mankind, so again, that is based on grace.

Christianity is life, not a belief based on laws to keep or a moral code in order to receive salvation.

Amen to that!

It dying to self and being resurrected with the life of the one who died in our place. No other form of worship is based on a resurrected "founder".

Which is why it is important to understand that Christianity is not a religion. It is completely separate from all religions.

Thanks for adding these excellent points.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are you aware that religion doesn't save anyone??

If you do not believe the gospel and do as Jesus commands (to the best of your ability) then you have neither religion nor salvation.
"I don't have a religion; I have a relationship with Jesus." is a cliche` which inaccurately suggests that religious obedience to God's commands is unnecessary.
It reminds me of the "theology" of the song, "Spirit in the sky"

"Prepare yourself, you know you must - Gotta have a friend in Jesus
So you know that when you die - He’s gonna recommend you to the spirit in the sky"

No, I hold to the biblical teachng of eternal security.

The you hold to nothing.

Well then, both Paul and I strongly disagree with your views about what is important. But I'm not surprised at your comment.

Oh! YOU and Paul!
In your very HUMBLE opinion, no doubt!

2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

That's right; "all scripture" not the Calvinist heretical misinterpretation of scripture.
We're not going to agree.
Can you leave it at that?
Or do you need everyone to affirm you?

 

[JLB]

JLB, your posture is this:

Who created ? (insert whatever/whoever other than God for A)

A. Man
B. God

And you expect A for the answer? It'll never happen.

Can you point out in any of my post's where I said, Adam created anything?

Adam procreated with Eve, the natural birth process that God designed.

There is no credible answer to any scriptural question that seeks to eliminate The Creator from creation.

Your position fosters multiple creators. Scripture presents "nothing" exists in creation without Gods Specific Directives, creating it so.

Your position proposes that Satan, the power of evil, sin, confusion, Adam as a sinner, disobedience, deception, lusts, the power of death all self created apart from, void from, disconnected from any Hand/Role/Implication/Continuing Involvement/First Cause of God whatsoever as The Creator of "all things," directly against what Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and many others state, that God created "all things."

I don't accept polytheism, man as creator, other things as creators. That's all there is to it.

Nehemiah 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Ecclesiastes 1:13
And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

JLB, your posture is this:

Who created ? (insert whatever/whoever other than God for A)

A. Man
B. God

And you expect A for the answer? It'll never happen.

Just answer the question, as your circular reason, just won't do it.

You will have to come out of hiding, and state your position.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world and the human race through Adam or God?

A. Adam
B. God


JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no credible answer to any scriptural question that seeks to eliminate The Creator from creation.

Your position fosters multiple creators. Scripture presents "nothing" exists in creation without Gods Specific Directives, creating it so.

Did God create Adam with Satan dwelling in his flesh?



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

That's right; "all scripture" not the Calvinist heretical misinterpretation of scripture.
We're not going to agree.
Can you leave it at that?
Or do you need everyone to affirm you?

Maybe listen a little more rather than assuming?

calvinism is just as bad as armin theory when coming to eternal security. And I am sure Freegrace will agree.

How can you not see this from all the back and forth?

They both teach loss of salvation. Armin teaches one will lose salvation. And calvinism teaches that one loses the salvation they "thought" they had.

Perseverance of the saints is not eternal security. Eternal security is preservation By the Lord Jesus Christ. There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Maybe listen a little more rather than assuming?

calvinism is just as bad as armin theory when coming to eternal security. And I am sure Freegrace will agree.

How can you not see this from all the back and forth?

They both teach loss of salvation. Armin teaches one will lose salvation. And calvinism teaches that one loses the salvation they "thought" they had.

Perseverance of the saints is not eternal security. Eternal security is preservation By the Lord Jesus Christ. There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation.

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

I agree; " There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation". If the Lord Jesus Christ can't keep us saved, we by our own power are in deep trouble. Since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, we ourselves are not powerful enough to break his seal.

 

[JLB]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

I agree; " There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation". If the Lord Jesus Christ can't keep us saved, we by our own power are in deep trouble. Since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, we ourselves are not powerful enough to break his seal.

Your mind is set on the wrong type of seal.

Your assuming that we are sealed as a canning jar is sealed, which is not what this seal is referring to.

This seal is God's "seal" of approval for those who believe.

Those who believe and trust in Christ Jesus, are approved, as in a "stamp" or "seal" of approval to receive the Holy Spirit.

Sealed - Strong's G4972 - sphragizō

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. 
   
   
   • for security: from Satan
   • since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
   • in order to mark a person or a thing
     1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
     2. angels are said to be sealed by God
   • in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
     1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
        1. of a written document
        2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13

The Lord doesn't do the "believing" for us, because it is up to us to do the work of believing.
[John 6:29]

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

Your mind is set on the wrong type of seal.

Your assuming that we are sealed as a canning jar is sealed, which is not what this seal is referring to.

This seal is God's "seal" of approval for those who believe.

Those who believe and trust in Christ Jesus, are approved, as in a "stamp" or "seal" of approval to receive the Holy Spirit.

Sealed - Strong's G4972 - sphragizō

to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. 
   
   
   • for security: from Satan
   • since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
   • in order to mark a person or a thing
     1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
     2. angels are said to be sealed by God
   • in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
     1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
        1. of a written document
        2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13

The Lord doesn't do the "believing" for us, because it is up to us to do the work of believing.
[John 6:29]

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


JLB

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The character and direction of the works that were created in Christ Jesus are made ready by God. There is no working upward from works to salvation. We work because of salvation, not to obtain it nor to keep it. Salvation is not deliverance from external evil nor "remodeling", but it is a death of the old nature( render it powerless) and a creation of a new nature that we might live in conformity with God's will. Atonement that doesn't make you live as Christ lives is not atonement but a remodeling of the old.

For those that are saved there is no un-saving, reverting back to the old. The old has died and only God has the power of resurrection.

 

[Northman]

I don't understand what you mean by "God inventing sin". Can you clarify what you mean by this?

I just mean that the list of things God doesn't like are from his own mind. They were there first before any created being came into existence.

 

[Mike]

They both teach loss of salvation. Armin teaches one will lose salvation. And calvinism teaches that one loses the salvation they "thought" they had.

"The salvation they thought they had."

I'm curious about this statement. How does one know they have salvation if there is always the possibility that they will lose what they had only to discover that they only thought they have salvation? It's an honest question. I'm not trying to zing you. I suppose some who have lost it felt it to be as real and authentic as you do. I honestly keep thinking of this as a trump card played by the OSAS camp to explain away when some fall away. It seems you can't know until you stand before the Lord. If you do remain in the faith until the end, then there's no way to say if it were Calvinism or armenimism that played a roll. You were either locked in, or you persevered.

Philippians 2
"12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain."

 

[smaller]

I just mean that the list of things God doesn't like are from his own mind. They were there first before any created being came into existence.

Brilliant deduction. Yet, these are not only allowed, they were created.

We might consider that any 'created' thing, power, entity, principality is automatically LESS than God. Put the equation together thusly:

Perfect Eternal God. Beyond the definitions or captures of any "thing."

Everything else = Less than, by substantial margins.

From there it's not difficult to understand Gods creation of "evil power." It's all in the "less than" category. Relatively meaningless by comparison to The Greater.

Isaiah described it thusly:

Isaiah 40:17
All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.

Did God subject His Own creation to vanity? Absolutely He Did so:

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Believers think they have free will. The reality is that 'all' are subject to vanity and ultimately death. Precisely made and subjected so, courtesy of The Creator.

And, these same deluded, think that they, in, of and by themselves, of their own actions, are able to "create" a contrary state? Uh, probably not. Our Divine Sovereign will get exactly and ONLY what He Desires to have, in the end. And it will be by only HIS POWER.

IF we see how God sees the sum of the nations above, we might line ourselves up in the same way, as Paul did here:

Galatians 6:3
For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Deception is an ugly thing to observe.

Freewill they say? How about understanding where "man's will" really is on the scale? In the entire "camps" of freewill, their deceptions run so deep, they think God made them with "freewill" in order for them to worship God. Oh really? You think God is then put 'in need' of your produce, that YOU have made?

Pretty sure God could snap His Fingers and raise up a chorus beyond our imaginations from a pile of rocks. The whole mindset of such schemes is that. It's a trick of deception.

There is nothing wrong with observing The Greater, beyond all things. Nobody is going to "add" to Him. Pretty sure God Is Capable of getting what HE WANTS. In fact, I'd bank on it.

Anyone who says they know Gods Will doesn't have a clue. God Has An Eternal Will. Anyone care to define what that is or might consist of? I sure can't. I'd even say it's stupid to even try. The Potential Depth of a single Word of God is actually well beyond my own imaginations. We have very little respect for WHO we are engaged with.

 

[smaller]

All anyone has to do is read what you posted and the sidestepping you have done when asked a simple question from the scriptures.

I spend most of our engagements unwinding your various "schemes" of what you think about how God Thinks. I took the stance, quite long ago, that our Creator is Greater than the sum of all things, and gets exactly and only what HE Wants, by His Own Power. Whatever "concoctions" religious folks dream up are that.

We'd all be better served to understand our own thoughts are quite entirely pale compared to Him and His Thoughts, which I personally consider quite beyond my reach. So, let's hear from God today from JLB? I don't think that is anything remotely close myself. And I'd include my own claims in the lump as well. Whatever schemes people dream up to justify themselves will never carry much weight with me. Sorry. I try not to carry any schemes to justify myself because I can't, by a simple look at WHO we are dealing with and what He has done.

Putting forth logical fallacy after logical fallacy, and misrepresenting the scriptures as you misquote Paul, and take his words out out context and apply them to your man made doctrine.

I followed Paul. Paul admitted to only partial knowledge and darkened sight. I do as well. Care to join us?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I find honesty quite entirely refreshing. Don't you?

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world and the human race through Adam or God?

Does the word 'through' to you mean Adam created sin? Just think about what that means. I'm not about to leap off a theological cliff and see the word "through" means Adam created sin. You have to understand that your mind is playing tricks on you.

A. Adam
B. God

Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38.

Let's look at your equation in the light of scriptural reality:

A. Adam, Gods son. Luke 3:38
B. God

Do you see God removed from the equation? I don't.

Why do you want to remove God from the equation anyway? Is there some kind of theo-logic involved that makes sense? Any description in the Bible, of Gods Words, comes from God. How is it that you propose to remove God from His Own Words anyway? Replace them with what? Your words? I don't think so.

 

[smaller]

Did God create Adam with Satan dwelling in his flesh?
JLB

Absolutely God made the "flesh" of Adam, with ALL of it's inherent FLAWS.

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death

Do I think God meant for His own son, Adam, to eternally live in a wet dust pile? Absolutely not! All of the above were conditions made by God PRECISELY to destroy the flesh of Adam, and move Adam to a second state, being made a spirit. 1 Cor. 15:42-47.

If you think Adam "created" all of those things above, then your positions have made MAN The Creator. Any such constructs of multiple creators I wouldn't even consider being in the realm of Christianity. It's a pagan notion.

It is God Himself who made, not only Adam, but the entirety of creation, subject to vanity. God made the creature subject to vanity. No mere 'dust pile' did anything of it's own will or accord.

Romans 8:20
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

 

[JLB]

I spend most of our engagements unwinding your various "schemes" of what you think about how God Thinks. I took the stance, quite long ago, that our Creator is Greater than the sum of all things, and gets exactly and only what HE Wants, by His Own Power. Whatever "concoctions" religious folks dream up are that.

We'd all be better served to understand our own thoughts are quite entirely pale compared to Him and His Thoughts, which I personally consider quite beyond my reach. So, let's hear from God today from JLB? I don't think that is anything remotely close myself. And I'd include my own claims in the lump as well. Whatever schemes people dream up to justify themselves will never carry much weight with me. Sorry. I try not to carry any schemes to justify myself because I can't, by a simple look at WHO we are dealing with and what He has done.

No schemes to it.

Just a simple trust in what the Lord has for us to know and understand.

I followed Paul. Paul admitted to only partial knowledge and darkened sight. I do as well. Care to join us?

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I find honesty quite entirely refreshing. Don't you?

More Logical fallacy's in a vain attempt to avoid answering a simple question, that most others are quick to answer.

It's time to come out of the hiding and just be honest.

• Did God create Adam with Satan dwelling in his flesh?

Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38.

Let's look at your equation in the light of reality:

A. Adam, Gods son. Luke 3:38
B. God

Do you see God removed from the equation? I don't.

Why do you want to remove God from the equation anyway? Is there some kind of theo-logic involved that makes sense? Any description in the Bible, of Gods Words, comes from God. How is it that you propose to remove God from His Own Words anyway? Replace them with what? Your words? I don't think so.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world and the human race through Adam or God?

A. Adam
B. God


JLB