Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[OzSpen]

How do you understand God to be the AUTHOR of hurricanes, etc?
The sin nature is in all - in man and in nature. Sin affects everything on the earth.
Even nature will be set free from the slavery to sin.
Romans 8:19-22

Wondering

Wondering,

I have pursued some more biblical details of why God sends hurricanes (cyclones in Southern Hemisphere) in this article:

Does God send cyclones?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

God created all things. There is no way around it. And please understand it is NOT 'my' theology. These are plain statements of both scripture and the Nicene creed.

It IS your theology. If I believe smaller's theology, it means that God created paedophiles to rape children and Hitler and the Nazis were created to slaughter 6 million Jews in gas ovens during World War 2.

The true cause of evil can be found with human beings. Take a careful read of Genesis 2 & 3 (ESV) and you'll see that God gave Adam the choice of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or not to eat. The woman was tempted by the serpent and Adam joined them in disobeying God and eating. The free choice given to all human beings from the beginning led to evil in our world.

God does not create paedophiles to rape children. He created human beings through sexual intercourse and some evil human beings become paedophiles who rape children. It is your theology that is up the creek and makes God into a person who does horrific things. The problem is with the theology you create and not with God.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

And it is there, that your own posture fails. Sin dwells "in" our flesh. It is not "around us" but "in" our own flesh. Romans 7:17 & 20. It is not a question of you or I being "sinless." We are all on quite equal ground when it comes to sin dwelling in our flesh.

There you go! You've stated your own answer to the problem. It is sin that dwells in all human beings that causes paedophiles to rape and Stalin to murder millions in the Gulag. At last your theology is getting closer to a biblical view. It is not God who created all the evil in the world. He created human beings with freedom and they disobeyed God, ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and evil entered out world. Evil was not created by God but by human beings.

I'm pleased you are seeing this at last. Thanks for owning up to this. All of us are sinful because of the free choice that Adam and Eve made in the beginning.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I believe you and I will be there together - this is not my concern.
My concern is for a new Christian reading along who can get that idea you dislike that he can do whatever he wants to and still be saved. This is just not true. Would you agree to this?

We discussed sanctification and how it differs from justification but you didn't seem too interested in this theological fact.

I also brought up the old covenant and the new covenant but you're not too interested in this either.
What you are interested in is plucking verses out of the NT that SEEM to agree with your pemise.
You've done the same with Calvinism - picking only the parts of it that you agree with.

Romans 6:23 says we have eternal life IN Christ.
If we are IN Christ then we BELIEVE in Him and have security.

If we do not BELIEVE (follow, trust) IN Christ, then we do Not have security.

No use to post scripture. You're using logic.
The above is not only correct but very logical.
Wondering

Wondering,

Your concern is justified with the OSAS promoters. I consider that a biblical understanding is represented by the language of 'perseverance of the saints'. Believers will continue to believe, i.e. persevere. Here's one verse that deals specifically with this issue:

The meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV)
What does 1 John 5:13 (ESV) teach? The verse states, ‘I write [Gk aorist tense] these things to you who believe [Gk present tense] in the name of the Son of God that you may know [Gk perfect tense] that you have [Gk present tense] eternal life.

The aorist tense is point action

. The present tense refers to continuing action in the present time. The perfect tense refers to an action in the past with continuing results. In Dana & Mantey’s advanced Greek text, they explain that there are ‘two fundamental ways of viewing action’ for Greek tenses. ‘It may be contemplated in single perspective, as a point, which we may call punctiliar action…; or it may be regarded as in progress, as a line, and this we may call linear action…. The perfect tense is a combination of these two ideas: it looks in perspective at the action, and regards the results of the action as continuing to exist; that is, in progress at a given point. Hence the perfect has both elements, linear and punctiliar. The aorist may be represented by a dot (

), the present by a line (————), and the perfect by the combination of the two (

————-) [Dana & Mantey 1955:179].

Therefore, the meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV) is NOT that somebody believed in the past and thus is guaranteed eternal security for salvation, no matter what he or she does after saying ‘yes’ to Jesus. The meaning is that it is written to those ‘who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may continue to have the result of knowing that you are continuing to have eternal life’. So, perseverance of the saints is better language than eternal security OSAS, based on this verse, 1 John 5:13 (ESV). Christian believers are those who continue to believe to the end of their lives.

Why is that the case? It is because the original Greek language of the text affirms that the Christians who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God will know that they continue to have eternal life. Thus, eternal life is guaranteed to those who persevere in the faith – they continue to believe (taken from my article,
Continue in the faith to guarantee eternal life)

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Wondering,

Your concern is justified with the OSAS promoters. I consider that a biblical understanding is represented by the language of 'perseverance of the saints'. Believers will continue to believe, i.e. persevere. Here's one verse that deals specifically with this issue:

The meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV)
What does 1 John 5:13 (ESV) teach? The verse states, ‘I write [Gk aorist tense] these things to you who believe [Gk present tense] in the name of the Son of God that you may know [Gk perfect tense] that you have [Gk present tense] eternal life.

The aorist tense is point action

. The present tense refers to continuing action in the present time. The perfect tense refers to an action in the past with continuing results. In Dana & Mantey’s advanced Greek text, they explain that there are ‘two fundamental ways of viewing action’ for Greek tenses. ‘It may be contemplated in single perspective, as a point, which we may call punctiliar action…; or it may be regarded as in progress, as a line, and this we may call linear action…. The perfect tense is a combination of these two ideas: it looks in perspective at the action, and regards the results of the action as continuing to exist; that is, in progress at a given point. Hence the perfect has both elements, linear and punctiliar. The aorist may be represented by a dot (

), the present by a line (————), and the perfect by the combination of the two (

————-) [Dana & Mantey 1955:179].

Therefore, the meaning of 1 John 5:13 (ESV) is NOT that somebody believed in the past and thus is guaranteed eternal security for salvation, no matter what he or she does after saying ‘yes’ to Jesus. The meaning is that it is written to those ‘who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may continue to have the result of knowing that you are continuing to have eternal life’. So, perseverance of the saints is better language than eternal security OSAS, based on this verse, 1 John 5:13 (ESV). Christian believers are those who continue to believe to the end of their lives.

Why is that the case? It is because the original Greek language of the text affirms that the Christians who continue to believe in the name of the Son of God will know that they continue to have eternal life. Thus, eternal life is guaranteed to those who persevere in the faith – they continue to believe (taken from my article,
Continue in the faith to guarantee eternal life)

Oz

And doctrine should NEVER be based primarily on the "tense" of a Koine Greek word. They didn't actually have "tenses" in the same sense that modern English does and they were not that regular in the use of "tenses."

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

And doctrine should NEVER be based primarily on the "tense" of a Koine Greek word. They didn't actually have "tenses" in the same sense that modern English does and they were not that regular in the use of "tenses."

iakov the fool

That's where you and I will disagree. The facts are that I demonstrated from 1 John 5:13 (ESV) that the continuous action of the present tense and the continuing results of the perfect tense are important in salvation.

The same applies with John 3:16 (ESV) where 'whoever believes' means 'whoever continues to believe' because 'believe' is the present tense of continuous action.

The Koine Greeks did have tenses but they are defined differently to English tenses and I tried to show that. However, I agree that tense is only one aspect of the verbals to contribute to the understanding that believing Christ for salvation must continue and apostasy must not be committed (Heb 6:4-6 ESV) and faith can be shipwrecked (1 Tim 1:19-20 ESV).

May you have a great San Jose week as I enjoy the gorgeous Brisbane sunshine and Spring weather (a brief thunderstorm of 7mm of rain last night).

Oz

 

[smaller]

There you go! You've stated your own answer to the problem. It is sin that dwells in all human beings that causes paedophiles to rape and Stalin to murder millions in the Gulag.

You miss the point entirely[edited by staff]. You even wonder why Paul put himself at the bottom of the pile of sinners? 1 Tim. 1:15. After salvation?

Indwelling sin, evil present with ALL is demonic. An Apostle is singled out for greater internal attacks. As 2 Cor. 12:7 shows us. Paul was not looking at only himself in these equations. He shows indwelling sin as "NO MORE I." It is in fact an adverse spiritual working of the adversary.

Your sights however are only focused on the external. Exactly the last place to find understandings.

At last your theology is getting closer to a biblical view. It is not God who created all the evil in the world.

There is no at last. The theological view you promote is the claim that God did NOT create all things, directly contradictory to Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 and the Nicene creed. A point you have avoided from the start of the discussion. If evil is a power, it is, Hab. 2:9 and God created 'all powers', He did, then there is no isolating from "making" the power of evil, of making the devil and his messengers, or of Gods uses and deployments of evil from the "all created things" quotient. Which uses are very well documented, particularly in the O.T.

Ultimately we look to Gods Own Son. Did God demand His Own sinless flesh be killed? Did God Himself "exercise" the entirety of that event? Was it "evil" of God to kill innocent flesh? There is where the rubber meets the road on both freewill (an impossible claim) and Gods subjecting His Own flesh to death under the power He Himself created. We also know that all of these charaters PERFORMED Gods Own Will in the matters. And none of them would be considered "saved" people. YET they did Gods Will in killing Jesus. Down to a "T."

Acts 4:
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

As we can see, this was PREDESTINED to transpire. These people were quite Divinely turned against God and His Son, to DO GODS WILL.

So who exactly is "responsible" for that? God Himself.

He created human beings with freedom and they disobeyed God, ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and evil entered out world. Evil was not created by God but by human beings.

That is only a story, not scriptural reality.

I'm pleased you are seeing this at last. Thanks for owning up to this. All of us are sinful because of the free choice that Adam and Eve made in the beginning.

The assumptive victory on your part does not a victory make. You're working assertions and predispositions to support what cannot be supported against hard scriptural facts, insisting your predisposition press false stories can run the gauntlet of scriptural reality.

They can't.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's where you and I will disagree. The facts are that I demonstrated from 1 John 5:13 (ESV) that the continuous action of the present tense and the continuing results of the perfect tense are important in salvation.

It requires both the tense AND the context.

 

[OzSpen]

You miss the point entirely, as usual. You even wonder why Paul put himself at the bottom of the pile of sinners? 1 Tim. 1:15. After salvation?

I never wrote a word about 1 Tim 1:15 (ESV) - not a word about Paul being foremost of sinners.

I will not be replying to you if you continue to invent things about what I said.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

It requires both the tense AND the context.

Agreed. But it also requires an understanding of the rest of the grammar in the paragraph and the culture of the day.

 

[Jim Parker]

Agreed. But it also requires an understanding of the rest of the grammar in the paragraph and the culture of the day.

And even more than that!
Add to that an understanding of logic, linguistics, literature, the historical and political context,....
(Oh, MY! That's more than what's in my bag of tricks.)
So when the average blow-by presumes to pontificate upon the subtleties of the exegesis of his favorite proof-texts, we should break out the popcorn! It's going to be a hoot!

jim

 

[JLB]

No, I didn't catch that.

Here is some of the dialog below, with the post numbers:

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did the sin that spread to all mankind come from Adam or from God?

From post:215

JLB

Here is his reply:

↑ JLB said:
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

smaller said:
Your position claims that GOD HIMSELF, The Creator of 'all things' had absolutely nothing to do with that. I find that position unsupportable.

IF God made and deployed the power of evil to kill the natural man, so it is. If God made and deployed evil to demonstrate His Own Eternal Superior to "all things' Power and Eternal Mercy in doing so, so be it. The God many have is not that great in their eyes. So be it.

[edited by staff]

You can read this dialog: post # 221,

his answer in post 227:

IF you position claims that God had NOTHING to do with any of it, that claim, I REJECT.

Freewill postures try, quite vainly, to REMOVE GOD from the equations of His Own creation. That claim I also reject.

God is FULLY Involved, Alive and Active in His Own creation. Heb. 4:12.

Everything that transpires IN His creation, transpires "IN" His Omnipresence.

I asked him again the same question in post 238.

Please answer the question.

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world through man or through God?

a. through man
b. through God

I only asked a question, to give him the opportunity to clarify himself, because everyone who has dialog with him seems to agree: it's hard to understand where he is coming from.


his answer:

There is little use continuing to repeat your demands to blame and accuse only Adam JLB, while simultaneously and completely ignoring the role of The Creator of Adam. That kind of theology won't cut it with me, ever. We can never logically remove The Creator and expect to have credible understandings.

God created "all things." Col. 1:16. "All things" were created for The Creators pleasure. Rev. 4:11. The Creator upholds "all things" by the Word of His Power. Heb. 1:3.

The instant your positions remove God from the equations, it's no longer christian theology imho. It becomes another kind of religion. Maybe polytheism, maybe pantheism. Maybe both and a whole lot of other.

So, examine your demand above. And I'll ask you WHY you demand to remove GOD?

Only Godless theology makes that kind of demand.

[edited by staff]

Please read through this dialog in which others have tried to convince him that God did not create Adam with sin or evil in his flesh, or that God did not bring sin into the world.


JLB

 

[JLB]

You wanted to trot out pedophiles and Jew killers as evidence that God didn't create "all things." I trotted out the chief of sinners, after salvation, an Apostle, for your comparison to the other sinners, from 1 Tim. 1:15 AND showed "why" this was so.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 3:12-15


Paul encouraged others, by showing that He was one of the worst of sinners.

Paul is saying to them that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of which I am at the top of the list of the worst of sinners, that Christ came to save.

Paul certainly wasn't a sinner.

He plainly clarifies this by saying: although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man;...

Paul was formerly a sinner.

Paul taught us to walk in the Spirit, so that we would not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Paul encouraged others, by showing that He was one of the worst of sinners.

I've pointed this fact out to you, personally, dozens of times. Paul did not say "I used to be" the chief of sinners. He said I AM the chief of sinners. 1 Tim. 1:15.

I'll not insert personally derived fantasy "I used to be" where Paul says "I AM."

YES, this was a 'great challenge' for me to understand, HOW Paul could make such a claim. But he did make that claim AND, if we "listen" to how he got to that point of understanding, we too WILL find understandings.

Paul GLORIED in his own weaknesses and infirmities. When "we" are nothing, God in Christ is EVERYTHING. That's the general principle behind Paul's press.

Paul is saying to them that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners, of which I am at the top of the list of the worst of sinners, that Christ came to save.

Well, what is it? You've described it TWO different ways in your post already:

"He was"
"I AM"

Paul certainly wasn't a sinner.

And that is about as far out of christian understanding that there can possibly be. No one, no NOT ONE, is "sinless." Not even for a nano-second. Not by any amount of efforts or imaginations or religious ritualism or works, will that EVER be TRUE.

He plainly clarifies this by saying: although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man;...

Paul was formerly a sinner.

And you are all over the map on this subject. In addition to claiming Paul was sinless, which is utter nonsense when we have direct claims of the exact opposite from Paul himself. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21. Romans 5:23-25, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 3:22 Gal. 4:29, Gal. 5:17 are all factual statements from Paul showing the exact OPPOSITE of your claims.

The scripture has made it's conclusions. ALL are under sin. Deal with scriptural reality.

Paul taught us to walk in the Spirit, so that we would not fulfill the lust's of the flesh.

And to you that apparently means the flesh doesn't have any LUSTS to strain against? Again, who are you trying to kid but yourself?

Evil was present with Paul. Romans 7:21. Does it get ANY PLAINER?

 

[smaller]

Then let me be the first to disagree. He has been putting scripture to things I've known in my heart for a long time but haven't been able to explain. It's been going on for months and months and is quite refreshing.

It will be quite obvious to those who HEAR the Word of the Lord that we MUST turn our faces regarding ETERNAL ADVERSE JUDGMENTS away from each others and ONTO the enemy, the EVIL SHILL that is "not us" if we ever hope to get along and love each others.

There is an easy fulcrum for Divine Judgments that IS NOT US as Gods children.

Which is my call and quest in these matters. It is for UNITY. Not division.

Look for the "real" bad guy that God set right in front of our own noses to see. But this sight can only come via WORD disclosure. We will not 'see' this bad guy by using our flesh senses.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Yes, it does take one HUGE helping of HUMBLE PIE to understand this "personally." But when anyone does, they will never condemn another believer to hell, as long as they live. Forever and ever is a very long time.

Psalm 74:
12 For God is my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth.
13 Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters.
14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

It's Dragon and Leviathan PIE. The Heavenly Meal of the eternally humble children of God. To remind them NOT TO PLAY with Dragons and Leviathans.

burp...

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"I don't have religion."

That's too bad. James said; "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." (1:27 RSV)

Are you aware that religion doesn't save anyone?? My point was clear, and I noticed the part that you failed to post. Which isn't exactly all that honest.

A system of beliefs, such as the apostles creed or the Nicaea-Constantinople creed is a religion.

I disagree with your definition. Christianity is NOT a religion, regardless of what the masses think about it.

Christianity is a RELATIONSHIP with the God of creation, through His Son, Jesus Christ, by grace through faith.
All religions are a works based system of salvation. Totally different than Christianity.

But you can have any religion you desire. I'm staying with the Lord Jesus Christ.

And so you cling to the modern invention of OSAS.

No, I hold to the biblical teachng of eternal security.

It's really not that important.

Well then, both Paul and I strongly disagree with your views about what is important. But I'm not surprised at your comment.

2 Tim 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

AS I said, I have ceased to present you with the scripture which refutes the "eternal security" invention.

Your opinion has been noted.

You don't see it.

I certainly do NOT see loss of salvation in the Bible. I certainly DO see eternal security, which I've presented as clearly as possible.

The logic is solid, and no one from your side has done anything to challenge that logic.
If A = B, and B = C, then A = C. End of discussion.

Eternal life is a gift of God. The gifts of God are irrevocable. Therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.

There's nothing I can do about that

Yes, there is. Anyone who reads the Bible can accept the promise that believers are sealed for the day of redemption. Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5.

 

[JLB]

It is not my issue that "I believe" God created "all things." Scripture says EXACTLY that by many citings. I'm not surprised that so many DON'T believe it. And rather run behind their concocted versions of the Creator, making "excuses" for Him when He Needs No Excuses.

He created all things. Deal with it. That's what A Divine Sovereign Creator does. Creates "all things."

Supposedly, by my sights anyway, this makes Him Quite Vastly Superior to any "thing" created. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11.

God created Adam, as good, not with evil in him.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” 29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31


Please point out within this account of creation of man, where it says... God made Adam with evil in him.


God created Lucifer, as perfect in his ways... until.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:14-15


Please point out the words within this account of Lucifer being created, where he was made with evil in him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

As such I can see ZERO justifications in 'counting sins' against Adam or blaming/accusing Adam or claiming Adam was made evil or that Adam was sin. Adam created NOTHING. Adam was NOT the "creator" of "sin" "disobedience" "evil" or anything else. God IS The Creator of "all things."

Get this point down and we can maybe move on to the scriptural assessments of Adam's FLESH, which was not Adam, but a temporary "dust container" that was formed by God with some very specific inherent FLAWS and workings that were NOT Adam. But yes, these flaws, these faults, these adverse workings in Adam's flesh were created by God.

Adam did not create anything. The Creator created 'all things.'

By this he means, that God created Adam with "Satan in his flesh"... so it wasn't Adam's fault that he sinned, because it was all by God's design.



JLB

 

[Northman]

Would you mind answering this question.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world and the human race through Adam or God?

A. Adam
B. God


JLB

The answer is A obviously. I'm always in agreement with the Word, no matter who's mouth it comes out of.

Here is a question for you. If God didn't invent sin do you think we would still be dealing with those problems here on earth?

 

[JLB]

The answer is A obviously. I'm always in agreement with the Word, no matter who's mouth it comes out of.

Thank you for your honest and direct answer, which is based on God's word to us.

[edited by staff]

Here is a question for you. If God didn't invent sin do you think we would still be dealing with those problems here on earth?

I don't understand what you mean by "God inventing sin". Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Sin is disobeying God.

God's angels and man have a freewill to choose to obey God, or disobey God.

[edited by staff]



JLB