Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[WIP]

I have edited and deleted a number of posts for a variety of reasons including rude or snarky comments, talking about others rather than addressing others directly, failure to provide Scripture reference to support your differing viewpoints, etc. If you would like to continue to contribute in this discussion, I suggest refreshing yourself with the rules of the forum.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I've met many such false claimers in the believing realm. But then when we have vast segments of christianity who claim a sin is only what is seen on the outside and this lie gets pummeled into the masses for centuries, what do we really expect? Dishonesty breeds dishonesty. I've learned to expect "dishonesty" from many. But I don't blame them. There is another working behind the scenes, deceiving them. Romans 7:21. I think we both know where "all liars" end up, in the end, don't we?

I prefer honesty, even though that honesty is against sin in my own flesh, and evil present with me, that I DO WAR with (Romans 7:23), to stay in honesty. I call it the "leveling ground." Puts everyone flat on their faces before Our Supreme Maker. Romans 3:19 are the shoes we stand in before our Maker. And, yes, we HOPE in His Eternal Mercy by faith in Christ because God has put us IN NEED of same. Sore NEED.

There is the promise of Divine Butchery when we are taken up into Christ. The evil present with us will be carved out of us, before we are FIT TO STAND before Him in AWE.

AMEN!

 

[th1b.taylor]

Do you realize he is teaching that sin came from God, and entered the world because God "bound Adam over to sin".

That God created Adam sinful.


Here is what the scripture says...

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12



JLB

No, I didn't catch that.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

You are correct; " Disagreeing with JLB's contrary to scripture claims does not a heretic make." [I believe this part was edited out, so I removed it from a post I was making when the thread was halted]

I believe scripture makes the case that God created "all things" without exception.

Even though this IS the Gold Standard of the Nicene creed, that we all "supposedly" adhere to, from what I can tell so far in this thread, I'm the only adherent.

Adam was created innocent, without sin. He was not created sinful.

Sometimes we have to listen very carefully to what Gods Words tell us. I have never equated Adam with "evil" or with "sin." Or that God made Adam either. So please fine tune your postures to what I actually cited. Here is my sight of Adam. Luke 3:38. Adam was Gods son. As such I can see ZERO justifications in 'counting sins' against Adam or blaming/accusing Adam or claiming Adam was made evil or that Adam was sin. Adam created NOTHING. Adam was NOT the "creator" of "sin" "disobedience" "evil" or anything else. God IS The Creator of "all things."

Get this point down and we can maybe move on to the scriptural assessments of Adam's FLESH, which was not Adam, but a temporary "dust container" that was formed by God with some very specific inherent FLAWS and workings that were NOT Adam. But yes, these flaws, these faults, these adverse workings in Adam's flesh were created by God.

Adam did not create anything. The Creator created 'all things.'

Colossians does not state that God created sin.

There are numerous scriptures in addition to Col. 1:16 and Rev. 4:11 that state God created "all things." Does every molecule in all of creation have to be listed thereunder, in writing to prove that? No. The term is quite encompassing. All things in this application of terms is in fact "all things." There are ZERO exceptions. Everything in creation must logically extend to First Cause in any cases of sights. From there we have the application of Gods Continuing Works and "presence" in, over and above "all things." This again puts God in the mix of "all things" on a continuing basis.

It states that he created all things, and sin is not a thing, but a deficiency, a missing the mark.

I have witnessed some really fancy theological dancing to eliminate the power of evil or of sin from Gods creation of all things. Their general attempts usually land on claiming that "bad things" came about all on their own and created themselves by various means OR that these things really don't exist, but do exist because of some vague vacuum or void i.e. the lack of light produces darkness or the lack of good creates evil. I find none of these arguments credible in the least.

We should realize that "sin" and "evil" are not forensic in nature. They not a 'material' matters. They are not "tangible" in the material sense. So we are dealing with "invisible" powers and in many cases of scriptural sights, "invisible entities." To take on scripture is to accept that there are invisible GOD CREATED aspects of Gods creation that are in the adverse spiritual realm. Material logic can not and does not extend into understanding this arena.

Again, in the sound postures of this board for example, the correct stance is taken, that Satan is a "real adverse entity." Even though this entity and his powers or associated powers to that bad actor can not be materially seen or forensically captured.

This is where Christian theology gets very tricky for everyone engaged in it.

If Revelation 4:11 states that God created sin, then does the bible lie?

Your claim is that the scriptures must specifically state "everything" that God created. The book is not thick enough to do that as it would take up and surpass visible creation if it was so.

The last phrase states that all things God created were for his pleasure; so does God have pleasure in sin?

What does Ezekiel 18:32 state: " For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the LORD GOD, wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

My positions, as it relates to this topic matter is simple and thus:

God created "all things." Everything in Gods creation existed eternally, in the Mind of God, before it was ever set into the universe, visible and invisible. Everything or "all things" in creation, were, in this way PREDESTINED to transpire.

From there, there are many things that are also PREDESTINED to not continue, eternally. As it pertains to hell or what would more accurately be defined as the LoF, the "invisible" powers of death, of resistance to God, the invisible agents of devils, Satan, the power of death, the power of evil, all of these things were both PREDESTINED to exist and PREDESTINED to be ultimately destroyed. AS IS the bulk of the materially created universe, ultimately destined to pass on and away, to be again, replaced with new workings.

God will take the harvest into eternity, of what has been weighed and worthy to carry forward, again, in a PREDESTINED fashion.

It is one thing for God to BLAB about Eternal Love or Eternal Mercy, being of eternal value. It is quite another to pay the piper Himself, and SEE it work out in an environmental demonstration. God puts His Eternal Money where His Mouth Is. And creates "adversity" to prove Himself.

Love is "longsuffering." Does God make His Own Longsuffering? Yes. Who else could?

God, by the Eternal Nature of His Own Perfection, DOES suffer creating things LESS than His Own Self. God has DESIRED to "express" His Eternal Mercy into that which is LESS than Him.

Therein, in and by His Mercy, He created US, and therein, by His Mercy, He Takes Us IN.

But not "all things" in creation will "experience" His Mercy. This is only meant for His own sons and daughters, which He also created.

 

[smaller]

By that kind of statement are you supporting the view that God created evil, including paedophiles to rape children and terrorists to blow people into smithereens?

My scriptural understand is a simple one. That our Creator created 'all things' without exception. Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11 among many other scriptures similar. This includes all powers including the power of evil, the power of death, and evil adverse agents, the devil and his messengers.

All things by rights of terminology, includes 'all things.' Nothing, not one single thing, visible or invisible, exists without the creation of same by The Creator.

 

[smaller]

No, I didn't catch that.

Nor did I make the claim that JLB is making.

Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38.

That son was put in a container of flesh/clay. That container was NOT meant to inhabit eternity. It was "created" to be flawed, and eventually "broken" in DEATH, that 'container.' There was a first son, Adam, bound into a flawed natural container, and there is a LAST Adam, a spiritual being, again "made" by God. Isolated and specified by Paul elaborately in 1 Cor. 15:42 to the end of the chapter.

God created a natural man first. And God likewise, afterwards "makes" a final product In His Son, Jesus Christ, with many "members." Through faith, in Him, by the Power of God.

The Son of God was always with, in and Is God. We, as members of Him, are ADDED to His Body.

 

[reba]

Not taking a side in this discussion... looking for opinions on what this passage means to others?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Is your system of perspicacity based on logic or illogic?

It is based on multiple scriptures which I have repeatedly posted here in this forum and which are repeatedly dismissed by OSAS folk as not really saying exactly what they, in fact, clearly do say.

 

[smaller]

Not taking a side in this discussion... looking for opinions on what this passage means to others?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

God has commanded that the light shine from darkness. He created BOTH. And this exists in both a natural showing and a spiritual showing. Can either of these "created states" be the same as God? No. There is 'no thing' in creation that can be 'equated' to God Himself, who Is and Will Remain, ever so differentiated from His created things.

Here is how God views both light and darkness:

Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Whatever "light" we see, whether it be in the natural senses or the spiritual senses, can not be equated with God Himself. I might even describe His Image, His Son, as a "throttling back" or "controlling" of His Own Expressions, of everything God is, so we can find our place of understandings, without which we could not.

God has set or expressed HIS IMAGE in His Son, that we may perceive Him. Without which, we could not.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Not taking a side in this discussion... looking for opinions on what this passage means to others?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

This is one of the passages that confirm my faith in the one, triune in nature but one God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The loss of salvation view is totally illogical. It's believed IN SPITE of no verses that make that claim."

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Those who do not remain connected to Jesus, are thrown into the fire and burned.
JLB

I've already explained the difference between relationship, which is permanent, vs fellowship, which is dynamic. And I used the parable of the prodigal to illustrate that difference. The verse just quoted is about fellowship, not relationship.

So my claim stands.

Paul made very clear that all who believe are SEALED with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE. What for, one might ask? FOR the day of redemption.

And I don't recall any explanation from your side about how that cannot be about eternal security. Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30. And 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

Where does the Bible teach about this particular sealing being broken for any reason? No where.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is based on multiple scriptures which I have repeatedly posted here in this forum and which are repeatedly dismissed by OSAS folk as not really saying exactly what they, in fact, clearly do say.

Please provide one verse that plainly either warns that salvation can be lost/taken away/stolen/revoked/misplaced/etc, or clearly describes such action. So far, none of the verses posted by your side actually say what is being claimed. That's why they have been dismissed.

otoh, there have been many verses posted that asre clearly about eternal security, and your side has dismissed.

But, to my point, what is wrong with the logic I have presented regarding eternal life being irrevocable? Since it is clear that it didn't exactly move you to repentance on your stance, explain how the logic is wrong.

To do so, one must show either of 2 things:
1. eternal life is NOT a gift of God, or
2. the gifts of God are NOT irrevocable.

Showing either of these 2 things would prove that eternal life is not irrevocable.

 

[Jim Parker]

Please provide one verse that plainly either warns that salvation can be lost/taken away/stolen/revoked/misplaced/etc, or clearly describes such action. So far, none of the verses posted by your side actually say what is being claimed. That's why they have been dismissed.

I believe they have been dismissed because they don't fit the teachings of your religion.

Since you are unable or unwilling to understand what has been repeatedly provided for you, I see no reason to attempt to induce you to see what you have no desire to see.

Einstein is supposed to have said that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result. I respectfully decline your invitation to embark upon that insanity.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Not taking a side in this discussion... looking for opinions on what this passage means to others?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

Hi Reba,
As I'm sure you must know, the word "evil" in verse 45:7 means "chaos" as in war, and it so translated in many bibles.

Consider this:
The Hebrews attributed everything to God.
Revelation of God came a bit at a time, as man was able to understand Him.
Jesus was the ultimate revelation of God.
From Him we can know that God is all good and can cause no evil.
But the Hebrews attributed EVERYTHING to God. If you can understand this, the O.T. makes more sense - otherwise it could be very confusing.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

God has commanded that the light shine from darkness. He created BOTH. And this exists in both a natural showing and a spiritual showing. Can either of these "created states" be the same as God? No. There is 'no thing' in creation that can be 'equated' to God Himself, who Is and Will Remain, ever so differentiated from His created things.

Here is how God views both light and darkness:

Psalm 139:12
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

Whatever "light" we see, whether it be in the natural senses or the spiritual senses, can not be equated with God Himself. I might even describe His Image, His Son, as a "throttling back" or "controlling" of His Own Expressions, of everything God is, so we can find our place of understandings, without which we could not.

God has set or expressed HIS IMAGE in His Son, that we may perceive Him. Without which, we could not.

If God created the dark, how is He all good and omnipotent?
He was a bad God to create darkness?
He was too weak to prevent it?

Is God the Father understood better as Jesus made Him known to us in the N.T. or is He the God as explained in the O.T.? Is He the same God, is He different? This is what we should ask ourselves.

W

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Reba,
As I'm sure you must know, the word "evil" in verse 45:7 means "chaos" as in war, and it so translated in many bibles.

Consider this:
The Hebrews attributed everything to God.
Revelation of God came a bit at a time, as man was able to understand Him.
Jesus was the ultimate revelation of God.
From Him we can know that God is all good and can cause no evil.
But the Hebrews attributed EVERYTHING to God. If you can understand this, the O.T. makes more sense - otherwise it could be very confusing.

Wondering

Another often overlooked bit is that, in the Old Covenant, both parties had responsibilities. Part of God's responsibility is to chastise Israel when they do not keep their part of the agreement. The extreme examples of that are the destruction of the Northern Kingdom and the Babylonian exile.
These events would have been seen as "evil from God" by the Jews.

iakov the fool

 

[GodsGrace]

Another often overlooked bit is that, in the Old Covenant, both parties had responsibilities. Part of God's responsibility is to chastise Israel when they do not keep their part of the agreement. The extreme examples of that are the destruction of the Northern Kingdom and the Babylonian exile.
These events would have been seen as "evil from God" by the Jews.

iakov the fool

Right.
And to finish your thought, in the Old Covenant both parties were responsible. God and man (in different roles, not necessary to know for this discussion). God had to do His part, and man had to do His part.

In the New Covenant only God is responsible, He does everything.
All man has to do is to accept the atoning sacrifice of His son - however you want to understand that sacrifice since there are different ways for that too.

I'm hoping no one here writes to me saying that first I said man has to do nothing, and then I said that he does have to accept Jesus and thus he does have to do something. I'm sure you will understand what I mean - I can express it in no other way. God does it all - we just accept it.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Another often overlooked bit is that, in the Old Covenant, both parties had responsibilities. Part of God's responsibility is to chastise Israel when they do not keep their part of the agreement. The extreme examples of that are the destruction of the Northern Kingdom and the Babylonian exile.
These events would have been seen as "evil from God" by the Jews.

iakov the fool

Also, the Old Covenants contained within them both blessings and curses, as you point out.

Wondering

 

[OzSpen]

Not taking a side in this discussion... looking for opinions on what this passage means to others?

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Isa 45:8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

reba,

In Isa 45:7 you have quoted the KJV. The problem is with the bad translation of the Hebrew, ra, by the KJV translators.

Isaiah 45:7 (ESV) reads: ‘I form the light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity. I am the LORD who does all these things’.

I have found Norman Geisler & Thomas Howe’s response to this verse to be most helpful (Geisler & Howe 1992:271-272):

ISAIAH 45:7 – Is God the author of evil?

PROBLEM: According to this verse (Is. 45:7), God “creates good and evil” (kjv, cf. Jer. 18:11 and Lam. 3:38; Amos 3:6). But many other Scriptures inform us that God is not evil (1 John 1:5), cannot even look approvingly on evil (Hab. 1:13), and cannot even be tempted by evil (James 1:13).

SOLUTION: The Bible is clear that God is morally perfect (cf. Deut. 32:4; Matt. 5:48), and it is impossible for Him to sin (Heb. 6:18). At the same time, His absolute justice demands that He punish sin. This judgment takes both temporal and eternal forms (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 20:11–15). In its temporal form, the execution of God’s justice is sometimes called “evil” because it seems to be evil to those undergoing it (cf. Heb. 12:11). However, the Hebrew word for evil (ra) used here does not always mean moral evil. Indeed, the context indicates that it should be translated, as the nkjv and other modern translations do, as “calamity.” Thus, God is properly said to be the author of “evil” in this sense, but not in the moral sense—at least not directly.

Further, there is an indirect sense in which God is the author of moral evil. God created moral beings with free choice, and free choice is the origin of moral evil in the universe. So, ultimately God is responsible for making moral creatures who are responsible for moral evil. God made evil possible by creating free creatures, but the free creatures made evil actual. Of course, the possibility of evil (i.e., free choice) is itself a good thing. So, God created only good things, one of which was the power of free choice, and moral creatures produced the evil. However, God is the author of a moral universe and in this indirect and ultimate sense is the author of the possibility of evil. Of course, God only permitted evil, but does not promote it, and He will ultimately produce a greater good through it (cf. Gen. 50:20; Rev. 21–22).

Geisler & Howe (1992:272) summarise this as:

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
In the sense of sin: Moral evil, Perversity, Directly, Actuality of evil

GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF EVIL
In the sense of calamity, Non-moral, evil Plagues, Indirectly, Possibility of evil

On a practical level, God is not the author of the evil paedophile who rapes children. God is the author of hurricanes, cyclones and tsunamis.

Oz

Works consulted
Geisler, N. L., & Howe, T. A. 1992. When critics ask:A popular handbook on Bible difficulties. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books.

 

[smaller]

If God created the dark, how is He all good and omnipotent?

As noted prior, it is a general foul of Christian theology, to equate God, The Creator, to any "created" thing. He Is Over, Above and Greater than the 'sum' of any particular created things in His creation. And to give a somewhat petty analogy, God can indeed make a turd, but God is not that which He makes. The same analogy can be applied to the power of "evil." God can (and DID) make the power of evil. But God can not be equated to any "thing" or "power" so made under His Sovereign Above "all things" Dominion.

To equate God to any "created thing" is technically a form of pantheism.

He was a bad God to create darkness?

See above. Can God make the power of evil to serve His Divine Purposes? Assuredly, this is so. This does not make God Himself what He created. I know this is a hard concept to come to grips with.

He was too weak to prevent it?

That's what we might be falsely led to believe, IF we do not believe He Is Superior to "all things." The power of evil can only exist if God Himself wanted it to be so. To say it otherwise makes God weak, powerless, unable to stop it. I don't buy those types of theological postures. My general rule is that "all things" serve The Maker of "all things."

What way they serve and how it pans out can only be known by Him, in full. We don't see these things on this side of the cross, Perfectly. It does help though, if we see the fact that He Is Perfect, above "all things."

Is God the Father understood better as Jesus made Him known to us in the N.T. or is He the God as explained in the O.T.? Is He the same God, is He different? This is what we should ask ourselves.
W

I am not one to pit the O.T. against the N.T. That is an impossible theological road to travel. Yes, there is a distinct difference in "how" God dealt with man, O.T. and N.T.

God is not "kind" to natural man. This is part of what the O.T. shows us. But Grace and Truth are revealed to us, IN Christ, in the N.T. to those who call upon Him.

We've also heard this analogy, which I agree with, that the N.T. is the O.T., revealed, or the O.T. concealed what the N.T. revealed. And I generally agree with that sight. The Gospel is hidden to the natural man, those engagements in the O.T. And it is revealed in Christ, to the new man. The Gospel is NOT a favor to the 'natural man' as the people of Israel show us. This also carries forward to today. The Gospel is meant to bring an end to the natural man.

For citation purposes, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, and

Prov. 16:4, Prov. 26:10, Eccl. 1:13, Eccl. 9:3, Isa. 44:24

To see and understand "all things" is to see "all things" on both sides of the ledgers of good and evil, SERVING Him Who Is Greater, and IS PERFECT.