Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[Jim Parker]

I do believe the gospel. Which does NOT contain any works for salvation.

So what was Jesus talking about when He said:
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus' words are the gospel and "doing" good or evil are examples of "works."

At Mat 25:31-46 Jesus specifically states that He will judge mankind according to what they did or did not do.

Jesus also stated:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
Obedience requires doing: is: works.
Failure to obey (to do God's will) results in the wrath of God remaining on the one who fails to obey.

Jesus further stated:
Jhn 12:47-50 (RSV)If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.


Paul stated:
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Peter said:
1 Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
"Conducting yourselves" requires doing "works."
"Conduct" describes what you do.

I don't understand ho anyone can honestly say that the Gospel does do "NOT contain any works for salvation." unless multiple sections of scripture are simply ignored.

Unnecessary for...what? Salvation? Then Paul's words in Eph 2:8 and 9 would be untrue.

That is a good example of taking scripture out of context and reducing them to yet another cliche`.
Paul isn't saying that you don't have to do anything to be saved. The subject of the passage, from where those two verses are so regularly excised as if they were not in any manner connected to the rest of the letter, is the inclusion of the Gentiles into the community of God's people along with the Jews but without the requirement to keep the Law of Moses.

Eph 2:14-16 (RSV) For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end.

And why do the "no works" folk persist in not reading the very next verse?
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Obviously, that verse is intentionally ignored precisely because it prescribes good works for the faithful.

Do you really imagine that if you don't bother to do the good works for which you were created in Christ Jesus and which God prepared specifically for you to do, that you are saved?
If so, IMO, you imagine utter nonsense.

Why do you imagine Jesus said, "Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and not do what I tell you?" (Luk 6:46)
Does that not tell you that. if you call Jesus "Lord" then you are expected to do as He tells you and, conversely, if you do NOT do what He tells you then He is NOT your Lord?

I always respond to posts that are directed to me. It's the polite thing to do.

The polite response to "We're not going to agree. Can you leave it at that?" would be "Yes."

Cling to your beliefs if you wish.
I have been set free of them.

Bye, bye!

iakov the fool

 

[Free]

Please explain how it was circular. What I did was point out the FACT that every religion is based on works for salvation, which is UNLIKE Christianity, whereby salvation is by GRACE, through faith. Grace is unmerited favor.

You begin with the premise that Christianity isn't a religion, then redefine "religion" to preclude Christianity, and then conclude that Christianity isn't a religion based on your definition. Those differences are irrelevant to the definition of religion.

Therefore, relevant to my point. Religion is works based. Christianity is NOT, relative to salvation.

Other than Christianity, please identify one religion that is not based on works for salvation. If that can't be done, then my point stands.

I'm not debating works versus grace, that is irrelevant to definition of religion. So, no, your point doesn't stand.

Of course. All defined by generally secular people. Not by evangelicals. Satan wants everyone to think that Christianity is just one more religion, of which all religions are equal and will lead to God. Of which nothing could be farther from the truth.

Are you seriously suggesting that evangelicals should make up their own definitions of words? How are we to communicate intelligently with the world if we are making up our definitions? We can't.

The very point that Christianity is "set apart from the rest" shows that it is totaly different. Hence, not a religion. In a separate category. Which is my point.

All religions are different but that doesn't mean that they should all start making up their own definitions of "religion". A religion is a system of beliefs, in its simplest definition, which makes Christianity a religion.

 

[JLB]

Oh really? So you think "indwelling sin" in the flesh is "lowly/humble?" Is that how sin is described now? I don't think so JLB. I think indwelling sin and evil present is exactly that. VILE. Romans 7:17-21.

Paul teaches us quite openly and plainly that we are NO BETTER than any other sinner. Imagine that? Romans 3:9.

Earth shattering.

I guess when you mix together two or three scriptures, with no context, you can make the scriptures say just about anything you want.

None of which, relieves you or I of the obligation to obey what the word of God says:

We are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of body and spirit.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

We are to cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor, to being a vessel of honor.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:20-21

These workings in the flesh are what make the flesh contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. No matter how much we try to "purty it up."

Yes the flesh is contrary to the Spirit, which is why we are commanded to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


None of which answers the question that you keep dodging.

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31


What in Genesis Chapter 1 leads you to believe that God made His own son with these things in him:


JLB

 

[JLB]

And that is in the singular. Works don't save. Believing in Christ does save.

The work of God is for you to believe.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers... having returned to unbelieving.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8


JLB

 

[JLB]

When are you planning to show ANY Scripture that tells us that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

One should never build their doctrine on mere assumptions, but only on what the Word of God very plainly says. And the Word absolutely does NOT say that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. Presumptive assumption.

otoh, I've shown rock solid logic that shows that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Now, if my logic is fuzzy, or flat out wrong, then just show how my logic is.

But, to do that, one must show that either:
1. eternal life is not a gift of God. Even though Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts (and calling) are irrevocable. Even though Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

This logical approach places your position in a very tight corner. So, if my logic is wrong, prove it.

If your position is the truth, it should be quite easy to prove false doctrine for what it is.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Here's the definition for "fall away"

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from
      

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You will have to prove that being "removed from Christ" means a person is still saved.



JLB

 

[Northman]

Do you believe God created Adam with "sin" in him?

Do you believe God created Lucifer with "sin" in him?



JLB

Adam, no. Satan, something much worse.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe God created Adam with "sin" in him?
Do you believe God created Lucifer with "sin" in him?

A buttinski says:
I don't think either was created with "sin in them" because scripture says everything God created was very good.
Sin brings death and that's not good.
However, both were created with free will and the potential to choose sin rather than obedience.

moiya dva kopeckii

iakov the fool

 

[FreeGrace]

So what was Jesus talking about when He said:
John 5:28-29 (NKJV)… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus' words are the gospel and "doing" good or evil are examples of "works."

Anyone can take any verse(s) alone and come to nearly any conclusion they want. Such as the words of Jesus about eating His flesh and drinking His blood in John 6. Reading John 3:15,16,17,18,36, and 5:24 all lead to the understanding that one is saved by faith.

If one takes John 5:28-29 all alone as the gospel, then what Paul wrote in Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9 contradict what Jesus said in 5:28,29.

In the case of the 2 verses provided, by "done good", Jesus meant to believe in Him, obviously. And to "have done evil", He meant to reject His sacrifice on the cross for one's sins, obviously.

At Mat 25:31-46 Jesus specifically states that He will judge mankind according to what they did or did not do.

And...I AGREE!!! Every believer WILL be judged for what they did or not do. 2 Cor 5:10 says so. Clearly. But NOT for salvation. Rather, for reward.

Consider these verses:
Col 3:23-24
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for men, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Rev 22:12-13
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

Even unbelievers will be judged for what they did, according to Rev 20:11-15 -
Rev 20:11-15

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus also stated:

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
Obedience requires doing: is: works.

Let's consult a Greek lexicon regarding the word for "obey".
NT:544
apeitheo (ap-i-theh'-o); from NT:545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely):

KJV - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.

Failure to obey (to do God's will) results in the wrath of God remaining on the one who fails to obey.

Yes, but NOT loss of salvation

Paul stated:

Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Let's consider EVERYTHING that Paul taught, rather than just cherry-picking verses here and there.

He also wrote this, in 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous

However, he THEN wrote these verses in the next chapter:
Rom 3:9 - What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
Rom 3:23 - for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Therefore, Rom 2:6-10 does not teach that one will be saved by persistence in doing good. In fact, the verses that follow prove that no one can persist in doing good. That's precisely WHY Jesus Christ had to come to earth and die for the sins of mankind.

And that's exactly what the Law proves; that man cannot save himself by his works. Gal 3

I don't understand ho anyone can honestly say that the Gospel does do "NOT contain any works for salvation." unless multiple sections of scripture are simply ignored.

Your claim can only be said by ignoring Rom 4:4,5 and Eph 2:8,9
Rom 4:4-5 - Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
Eph 2:8-10 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

That is a good example of taking scripture out of context and reducing them to yet another cliche`.

You've done quite a good job of doing just that.

Paul isn't saying that you don't have to do anything to be saved.

Quite correct. In fact, when the jailer specifically asked him what he MUST DO to be saved, this is Paul's answer to that question:
Acts 16:31- They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved — you and your household

And why do the "no works" folk persist in not reading the very next verse?
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Obviously, that verse is intentionally ignored precisely because it prescribes good works for the faithful.

I, for one, have NOT ignored this verse. I will point out that the verse clearly does NOT say that works are necessary for salvation, as your position claims.

The verse tells us WHY we are created in Christ Jesus. It is FOR GOOD WORKS. It doesn't say "and will produce good works".

And, to be clear, I'm "no works" regarding salvation, but VERY "pro works" for reward and blessings.

Do you really imagine that if you don't bother to do the good works for which you were created in Christ Jesus and which God prepared specifically for you to do, that you are saved?

Eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29. That is irrefutable. So eternal life is irrevocable. So the answer to your question is a resounding YES.

If so, IMO, you imagine utter nonsense.

One is free to exercise whatever opinion they want. But Scripture is very clear: eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Cling to your beliefs if you wish.

I cling to the truth of God's Word.

I have been set free of them.

Yes, I see that. Very clearly.

 

[FreeGrace]

You begin with the premise that Christianity isn't a religion, then redefine "religion" to preclude Christianity, and then conclude that Christianity isn't a religion based on your definition. Those differences are irrelevant to the definition of religion.

Then I'll try to boil it down. Christianity is salvation by grace. All religions are salvation by a system of works. Agree or disagree?

I'm not debating works versus grace, that is irrelevant to definition of religion.

Well, that's exactly my point of departure. I am awaiting your answer to my question.

Are you seriously suggesting that evangelicals should make up their own definitions of words?

I would hope that evangelicals would use their common sense and realize the VAST DIFFERENCE between the grace of Christianity and the works of all religions.

How are we to communicate intelligently with the world if we are making up our definitions? We can't.

I haven't made up anything. I have pointed out the VAST DIFFERENCE between Christianity, a relationship with God by grace, with all religions, a system of works to reach God.

All religions are different but that doesn't mean that they should all start making up their own definitions of "religion". A religion is a system of beliefs, in its simplest definition, which makes Christianity a religion.

Is atheism a "system of beliefs"? Is evolution a "system of beliefs"?

By your own made up definitions, both atheism and evolution would be classified as religions. And you'd be laughed out of every institution of higher learning.

There are a whole list of things that are a "system of beliefs", which have nothing to do with religion.

The whole idea of religion is to attain salvation by doing specific things that God is supposed to be pleased with. Your definition of religion falls far short of what it is.

 

[FreeGrace]

The work of God is for you to believe.

Yes, that's what I said.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers... having returned to unbelieving.

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
JLB

When will there be any Scriptural evidence that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved?? I'm still waiting.

The Bible DOES teach that some believers will cease to believe.
The Bible DOES NOT teach that salvation can be lost.

 

[FreeGrace]

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Here's the definition for "fall away"

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6

Conflation of 2 different subjects doesn't help your cause. The word for "fall away" doesn't include anything about loss of salvation. That's just wild speculation and assumption. The word refers back to "believe for a while". iow, they believed for some time, and then fell away from their believing.

Evidence has already been presented that proves that one CANNOT be unsealed from the Holy Spirit. The believer is sealed FOR TH DAY OF REDEMPTION. Please explain how that phrase doesn't refer to eternal security.

You will have to prove that being "removed from Christ" means a person is still saved.
JLB

Nope. You've have to prove that one can be 'removed from Christ' by showing anywhere in the Bible that the sealing with the Holy Spirit can be broken BEFORE the day of redemption.

Which is impossible to prove from Scripture.

 

[JLB]

Conflation of 2 different subjects doesn't help your cause. The word for "fall away" doesn't include anything about loss of salvation.

You will have to prove that, as your opinion has shown to be unbiblical as a matter of record.

Here's the definition for "fall away"

1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
   1. to excite to revolt
2. to stand off, to stand aloof
   1. to go away, to depart from anyone
   2. to desert, withdraw from one
   3. to fall away, become faithless
   4. to shun, flee from
   5. to cease to vex one
   6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
   7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


You will have to prove that being "removed from Christ" means a person is still saved.

Eternal life is "in Christ Jesus". For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:29

Those who are in Christ Jesus, then are removed from Him are thrown into the fire and burned.


Please provide scriptures that teach us a person who is not "in Christ" has eternal life.


Please show us scriptures that teach us those who are unbelieving are saved.



JLB

 

[smaller]

I guess when you mix together two or three scriptures, with no context, you can make the scriptures say just about anything you want.

All scripture is profitable. If applied to that direction.

None of which, relieves you or I of the obligation to obey what the word of God says:

That's very much the basis where you and I depart. IF scripture tells us that we have evil present with(in) us, and sin dwelling in our flesh, which it does, your position concludes evil present and indwelling sin obeys. Obviously my understanding doesn't see that as even a remote possibility. Evil present never has, never will and can not "obey." So, which position "obeyed?" My position obeys what "The Truth" tells. Your position resists that direction and that fact. Romans 7:17-21.

We can boil it down quite simply from there.

We are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of body and spirit.

Applying the above simplicity, my position understands that evil present and indwelling sin is, as Paul defined, "no more I." There, we are divided from that working. Not by falsely claiming we made ourselves sinless. Your position will go back to the wall, trying again and again to make the obvious problem go away, which won't happen for any in the flesh.

Our spiritual adversaries will never be 'compliant.'

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

We are to cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor, to being a vessel of honor.

No such presentation in the scriptures. No vessel of dishonor turns into a vessel of honor. No bad tree makes itself a good tree. No devil is turned into a saint. We as believers can cast off the "works" of darkness. But when we say we have no sin, no evil present with us in our flesh, then we have been defeated in that LIE, by the very things we "war" against. And this lie always leads to hypocrisy. It's a double defeat.

When Paul spoke to the people in Acts 14 who thought them "gods" because of a healing, the disciples/Apostles rent their clothes, and one of the first things out of his mouth was to "relate" to them:

Acts 14:15
And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

These believers built on the facts of our mutual frailties in the flesh, and Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, because of these frailties. They didn't march around like some holier than thou jerks.

Yes the flesh is contrary to the Spirit,

And if we both stopped, together, right there. And understood WHY this and remains so, I expect we might actually "get along." But when any person's position says their flesh is not contrary to the Spirit, they are liars and hypocrites. Felled by that adverse working in the flesh.

which is why we are commanded to walk according to the Spirit, and not according to the flesh.

To cite your own position, and the position of the Gospel of Grace in Christ as well:

"Yes the flesh is contrary to the Spirit,"

None of which answers the question that you keep dodging.
What in Genesis Chapter 1 leads you to believe that God made His own son with these things in him:

Observed it many times now. Adam was not the same as the dust ball that he was planted in. IF that dust causes Adam or any person, to come to see Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, a VERY GOOD work has transpired in them. Did God make us and put us ALL in that position, to come to know His Mercy?

Absolutely, He did so. The dust ball was never meant to understand. It was meant to be 'adverse' to God in Christ.

JLB:
"Yes the flesh is contrary to the Spirit,"

 

[JLB]

Nope. You've have to prove that one can be 'removed from Christ' .

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

The result of those who are in Him, that don't remain in Him.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Case Closed.



JLB

 

[smaller]

Adam, no. Satan, something much worse.

Brilliant deduction. ALL scripture rotates around THREE principle entities. It is quite simple to understand. IF any one of the 3 is missing in the quotients of scriptural understandings, then the wheels come off the theological bus.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Those parties are: God, Mankind and Devils.

The same Word of Life to us causes the DEVIL to be hardened and enraged against every Word of God "in us."

So, when God Speaks a single Word, a TWO FOLD working bursts forth. One to life/engage to us, and that same Word, to enrage/engage our adversaries.

From the same Word comes both LIFE and RESISTANCE.

For those who hear, they WILL hear both sides of the ledgers of God from every Word of God.

No person will understand this construct, and CAN NOT, unless they personally submit to the fact that 'our sin' is of the devil, our spiritual adversary. 1 John 3:8. And yes, this is a very hard pill to swallow. Not everyone is meant to understand. And "who" is not meant to understand? Yep. Party number 3 above. It will never happen. Gods Word HARDENS that party to resist this disclosure and does so in the flesh of MAN.

Once seen, once engaged in this direction, the entirety of scripture has to be RE-READ with "Spiritual Reality" eyes, to observe the "dynamic" as it "really" is.

So, in this construct, we can tell a few matters for a surety. The devil(s) was made, by God, for the purpose of "resisting" God. This was PREDESTINED to transpire. And those parties are also PREDESTINED to "expire" in the LoF.

Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Do you or I or any person who believes, then stand under only ONE aspect of Gods Words, only unto LIFE? For believers, yes, but that is not "all" that is really going on. There is also a quite obvious working of "resistance" in all of us.

Some will submit to the above reality, personally, as God calls them OUT and AWAY from it.

And these will be 'engaged' by our Living God, in Truth. They will no more condemn another believer to hell. They know which way to POINT THE FIRE.

 

[JLB]

All scripture is profitable. If applied to that direction.

Here is a profitable word from the account of creation, whereby God Himself made man in His own image, and called it very good.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 26-31

Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

Smaller, doesn't "everything" include Adam and his physical body?

What in this account of creation from Genesis 1, teaches us that God created Adam's physical body with sin, or death, or Satan in it?


26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Genesis 1:26-28

God blessed what He made that was good.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Adam, no. Satan, something much worse.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:14-16


Lucifer was not created evil.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Here is a profitable word from the account of creation, whereby God Himself made man in His own image, and called it very good.

God Himself has "the knowledge of evil." When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Haven't you EVER wondered why the first thing Adam didn't do, was to run immediately to the TREE OF LIFE and just eat that fruit?

I might posture that the natural man, Adam, was BLIND to it. Or he was just an idiot.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Smaller, doesn't "everything" include Adam and his physical body?

I don't equate the dust ball with the man within that dust ball. No. It is a dust ball image of God, NOT the real final product.

What in this account of creation from Genesis 1, teaches us that God created Adam's physical body with sin, or death, or Satan in it?

Sorry to tell y'all, but the dust ball image ain't movin on. Deal with it. Why are your positions trying so hard to sustain and uphold and justify the dust ball? Recognize what is in the dust ball, and WHO YOU ARE in Christ. These are not the same. Our dust ball came, quite divinely, with some built in problems.

God blessed what He made that was good.
JLB

Let's say God blesses, with His Own Spirit, provided as His Seed, in that dust ball. But the dust ball is just a temporary container of it. And yes, it does have some Divinely built in expiration features. It was never meant for anything but a temporary habitation.

Did you really want to live forever in a dust ball? I don't. This dust ball I carry is just an image that will be passing away, back to where it came from. "Outside" the Garden from whence it was taken. It ain't here to do us any long term favors.

 

[JLB]

That's very much the basis where you and I depart. IF scripture tells us that we have evil present with(in) us, and sin dwelling in our flesh, which it does, your position concludes evil present and indwelling sin obeys. Obviously my understanding doesn't see that as even a remote possibility. Evil present never has, never will and can not "obey." So, which position "obeyed?" My position obeys what "The Truth" tells. Your position resists that direction and that fact. Romans 7:17-21.

We can boil it down quite simply from there.

Your not addressing what the scripture tells us to do.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

You are choosing to disobey and ignore what the scripture tells us to do about our physical body.

17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:17-23


How did this sin come to be in our physical body?

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

Sin spread to mankind through Adam's disobedience.

Your unbiblical claim is that sin spread to all mankind by God.

• Those who choose obey God, and what He says will cleanse themselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

• Those who desire and choose to obey God, will cleanse ourself from being a vessel of dishonor.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:20-22

• Satan does not touch those who choose to keep themselves.

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. 1 John 5:18

Paul taught us by his example:

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. 18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things.
Philippians 3:15-19


JLB

 

[JLB]

God Himself has "the knowledge of evil." When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath.

I see so you believe that God "imparted evil" as His Spirit was breathed into Adam.

That would be Heresy.



JLB