Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[smaller]

I see so you believe that God "imparted evil" as His Spirit was breathed into Adam.

That would be Heresy.
JLB

You don't think God has the knowledge of evil. I do. God has the knowledge of "everything." God can do "anything." There is no "limit" to His Power, and what HE CAN DO. I have no interests in supplicating at "my own" altar, that's for sure. Or carving out some little God of my own making that is helpless and powerless and must be "protected" by "my hands."

Deuteronomy 32:
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

 

[smaller]

Your not addressing what the scripture tells us to do.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

You are choosing to disobey and ignore what the scripture tells us to do about our physical body.

I obey the fact that God formed me all all men with evil present within us, and sin dwelling in our flesh, that was made to destroy us. I have great respect for what GOD HAS DONE. I stand, UNJUSTIFIED in His Eyes. Therefore I turn to His Mercy in Christ, every day of my life.

How did this sin come to be in our physical body?

Exactly how JESUS said:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Your unbiblical claim is that sin spread to all mankind by God.

God made all things. There is no way to remove God from anything in His creation. Those who do so have formed themselves "other gods." I have no interest in serving idols or multiple creators, OR postures that seek to "make us" God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[WIP]

Unless I am misunderstanding, there seems to be three different topics being debated here. One is the definition of religion. I'm not sure how that applies to the topic of this thread and on that basis maybe those involved should start a new thread to discuss that topic. The other is yet another OSAS vs nonOSAS discussion between the same opponents. This topic seems to have been beat to death, the same arguments have been presented over and over again, and since virtually every thread that has been started about this topic ended up locked maybe it's time to just agree to disagree and move on.

As for this thread, let's stick to the topic.

Thanks.

 

[JLB]

You don't think God has the knowledge of evil. I do. God has the knowledge of "everything." God can do "anything." There is no "limit" to His Power, and what HE CAN DO. I have no interests in supplicating at "my own" altar, that's for sure.

Deuteronomy 32:
32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
3 Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

The knowledge of evil was not present in Adam, when he was created; When God breathed into him.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7

God forbid Adam from eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

15 Then the Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” Genesis 2:15-17

Man had no knowledge of good and evil, until he ate of the tree.

Adam was not created with evil present in him, nor in his physical body.

It was through Adam's disobedience of eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he knew evil.

Adam became as God knowing good from evil when he ate of the tree.

Adam was not created by God to have evil or to know evil when God breathed into him His breath.


22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:22-24


Adam became...to know evil through his disobedience.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I obey the fact that God formed me all all men with evil present within us,

Pure Heresy!

God did not form Adam with evil present within him.

Adam was created as good, not evil.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31

Adam was not created with evil present in him.


Adam became to know evil when he disobeyed and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

 

[JLB]

God made all things. There is no way to remove God from anything in His creation. Those who do so have formed themselves "other gods." I have no interest in serving idols or multiple creators, OR postures that seek to "make us" God.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

Did God make Adam choose to eat of the tree?


Adam became to know evil when he disobeyed and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

 

[smaller]

Did God make Adam choose to eat of the tree?

Your position always and only sees just Adam. I don't believe scripture makes that presentation. Your position has a provably false basis. God wasn't removed from any action in the Garden. When Adam, Eve and the tempter were therein, EVERYTHING they did was open and exposed in the "Presence of God" just as everything that transpires today does so. Is God REMOVED from any of these quotients? You say yes, I say NEVER.

Here are the basic components of everything the scriptures present:

God/Man/Devils.

Anytime we try to remove one of these components from the scriptures, false narratives arise.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Adam became to know evil when he disobeyed and ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Your position only sees Adam. I don't believe scripture makes that case whatsoever. Provably so. But hey, if people don't see it, God doesn't mean them to see it. That's the way it works.

 

[WIP]

I have requested that new threads be started to discuss off topic items.

 

[smaller]

As a reminder, the topic from my input, is that devils were created by God, as well as the power of evil and the power of death. ALL these predetermined to exist, then existing by Gods creation of them, Gods 'control' of them, Gods ALL also predetermining them ALL to be destroyed in the LoF.

Ref. John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Gen. 2:9, Hab. 2:9, Eph. 6:12, Hebrews 2:4, referring to Gods creation of all things, inclusive of the power of evil and the power of death and other principalities/powers and agents that will be ultimately destroyed, by the Promises of God. Hos. 13:14, Mark 9:1, Rev. 19:20, Rev. 20:10, Rev. 20:14-15, Rev. 21:8 <- none of which would be set in writing if it were not predetermined to be so by God Himself.

Since these bad apples are in "direct interplay" with MANKIND as shown by Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 and other scriptures more numerous to even begin to cite, I would hope that the interplay and dynamic of God/Man/Devils/Adverse powers are understood to be "topical."

Anyone who wants to claim these things created themselves-> devils, the power of death, the power of evil, or wants to "save" any of the lot of it, hop right in.

 

[JLB]

As a reminder, the topic from my input, is that devils were created by God,

Completely False!!!

God did not create devils, demons, or Satan.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Completely False!!!

God did not create devils, demons, or Satan.

JLB

I cited the scriptures that there is only ONE Creator, and many that state, quite factually, that God created all things. And that many things, principalities, powers were not only predetermined to be "created." But predetermined also to be destroyed. You are welcome to claim otherwise, with scriptural support. To do so you are welcome to start by showing, scripturally, how God has nothing to do with anything in His Own creation.

I will immediately point to

Hebrews 1:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Followed shortly behind with:

John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Followed shortly behind with:

Numbers 27:16
Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Jeremiah 32:27
Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Did we leave anything out yet? Yeah, there's a boatload more:

Jeremiah 45:5
And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the Lord: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

ouch...getting hot in here.

 

[Free]

God Himself has "the knowledge of evil." When Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath.

Please provide scriptural support for this claim.

 

[OzSpen]

Please provide scriptural support for this claim.

I'm also waiting for the evidence to prove smaller's theology that 'when Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

 

[OzSpen]

As a reminder, the topic from my input, is that devils were created by God, as well as the power of evil and the power of death.

This is not true. God created angels as ministering spirits (see Heb 1:14 ESV) but they chose to fall into sin (Rev 12:4 ESV).

Human beings were created with the freedom to choose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or not to eat. Angels were created good by God and they chose to fall into sin.

You have a theological problem with the facts of Scripture. I'll stick with the teaching of Scripture as it provides the accuracy of what God did and does with human beings and angels.

Oz

 

[smaller]

This is not true. God created angels as ministering spirits (see Heb 1:14 ESV) but they chose to fall into sin (Rev 12:4 ESV).

I don't buy into the Holy angels gone sour stories. Evil/wicked "angels" were made exactly that way by The Creator of "all things." Col. 1:16. The Eph. 6:12 bad characters and powers did not make themselves, nor could they continue existing without Gods allowing, even upholding it so. Heb. 1:3.

Human beings were created with the freedom to choose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or not to eat.

Assertion apart from open facts to the contrary. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 all show man and the adversary in the same mind/heart. Is our will so free that we intentionally miss the obvious? OR...?

Angels were created good by God and they chose to fall into sin.

If you found a single scripture showing the devil or demons holy, I'd be inclined to agree. But alas, there is none. It's a great story though. Particularly effective in manipulating people into thinking they can make themselves sinless, given an adequacy of "good choices." Which I don't buy either, fwiw.

You have a theological problem with the facts of Scripture. I'll stick with the teaching of Scripture as it provides the accuracy of what God did and does with human beings and angels.

If I thought your stories were scripturally valid, I would give them credence. Assertions quit working for me without written substantiation from the scriptures.

 

[smaller]

I'm also waiting for the evidence to prove smaller's theology that 'when Gods Breath of life was breathed into the dust body of Adam, that "knowledge of evil" came with His Breath'.

Ah, so you think God held back from His Life to his own son? I have my doubts. Why you ask? Why do I think Adam had sinful flesh? Because God laid the LAW on him. Who is the law for? Paul tells us quite clearly: 1 Tim. 1:9. The law is for sinners, and the lawless. Were Adam not "in" that situation in the flesh, there'd have been NO NEED for LAW or PENALTY.

 

[smaller]

Please provide scriptural support for this claim.

Adam was Gods son. Luke 3:38. The law delivered in the Garden, and the facts of "who" the law is for in 1 Tim. 1:9 (lawless sinners) shows the state of Adam's flesh. Yes EVIL was present in his dust body, just as it was for Paul in Romans 7:17-21. So does Mark 4:15 apply to Adam.. So does 1 Cor. 15:42-46 apply to Adam. So does Romans 8:20 APPLY to Adam. So does Romans 11:32 apply to Adam.

See the "natural man" for what he was/is to this day:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man was never meant to receive or know. Made that way by God Himself.

 

[OzSpen]

I don't buy into the Holy angels gone sour stories. Evil/wicked "angels" were made exactly that way by The Creator of "all things." Col. 1:16.

You're back to the same as, same as response. The fact is that God did NOT create Adam and Eve and the angels evil. We know that from Genesis 2-3 (ESV) for human beings. Constantly quoting Col 1:16 (ESV) proves nothing because there are counter biblical arguments that I have given you. I'll not repeat them over and over with your repetitious Col 1:16 (references).

God created everything 'very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). He did not create evil. Human beings and angels did that (see Genesis 3 ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Ah, so you think God held back from His Life to his own son? I have my doubts. Why you ask? Why do I think Adam had sinful flesh? Because God laid the LAW on him. Who is the law for? Paul tells us quite clearly: 1 Tim. 1:9. The law is for sinners, and the lawless. Were Adam not "in" that situation in the flesh, there'd have been NO NEED for LAW or PENALTY.

That's your invention. God did not create Adam with sinful flesh. He has to commit sin to become sinful. He did that when he and Eve ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God.

You do add superfluous information that has no relationship to the topic being discussed.

 

[smaller]

You're back to the same as, same as response. The fact is that God did NOT create Adam and Eve and the angels evil.

Ahem. God, The Creator of everything, every power, every visible and invisible thing created "all things." Duly noted, multiple times in this thread. A few, John 1:1-3, Col. 1:16, Rev. 4:11, Isaiah 45:7, Prov. 16:4, 1 Peter 3:22 and so many many others.

There are no other 'creators.' Everything that is, is a cause of Him no matter how any care to slice the mustard.

We know that from Genesis 2-3 (ESV) for human beings. Constantly quoting Col 1:16 (ESV) proves nothing because there are counter biblical arguments that I have given you. I'll not repeat them over and over with your repetitious Col 1:16 (references).

You haven't even come close to addressing it other than in your own mind.

God created everything 'very good' (Gen 1:31 ESV). He did not create evil. Human beings and angels did that (see Genesis 3 ESV).

Also addressed "at length" to you and ignored.