Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

[JLB]

Absolutely God made the "flesh" of Adam, with ALL of it's inherent FLAWS.

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death

Do I think God meant for His own son, Adam, to eternally live in a wet dust pile? Absolutely not! All of the above were conditions made by God PRECISELY to destroy the flesh of Adam, and move Adam to a second state, being made a spirit. 1 Cor. 15:42-47.

If you think Adam "created" all of those things above, then your positions have made MAN The Creator. Any such constructs of multiple creators I wouldn't even consider being in the realm of Christianity. It's a pagan notion.

You almost answered the question.


The word of God says this about God and His creation of Adam, and everything else.

26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31


What in Genesis Chapter 1 leads you to believe that God made His own son with these things in him:

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death

When the word of God says...Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.


Why would you think, that God created His son as evil, when He said He created everything good.


JLB

 

[JLB]

hello JLB, dirtfarmer here

The character and direction of the works that were created in Christ Jesus are made ready by God. There is no working upward from works to salvation. We work because of salvation, not to obtain it nor to keep it. Salvation is not deliverance from external evil nor "remodeling", but it is a death of the old nature( render it powerless) and a creation of a new nature that we might live in conformity with God's will. Atonement that doesn't make you live as Christ lives is not atonement but a remodeling of the old.

For those that are saved there is no un-saving, reverting back to the old. The old has died and only God has the power of resurrection.

I never mentioned "works" in my post.


I'll repost it for you, with the scripture about being "sealed".


In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13

The Lord doesn't do the "believing" for us, because it is up to us to do the work of believing.
[John 6:29]

Those who believe are saved.

Those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

I just mean that the list of things God doesn't like are from his own mind. They were there first before any created being came into existence.

Do you believe God created Adam with "sin" in him?

Do you believe God created Lucifer with "sin" in him?



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

If you do not believe the gospel and do as Jesus commands (to the best of your ability) then you have neither religion nor salvation.

I do believe the gospel. Which does NOT contain any works for salvation. We are, according to Paul, saved by grace through faith, not of works. That is the gospel.

"I don't have a religion; I have a relationship with Jesus." is a cliche` which inaccurately suggests that religious obedience to God's commands is unnecessary.

Unnecessary for...what? Salvation? Then Paul's words in Eph 2:8 and 9 would be untrue.

The you hold to nothing.

I hold to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oh! YOU and Paul!

Yep. What he said in Eph 2:8 and 9.

That's right; "all scripture" not the Calvinist heretical misinterpretation of scripture.

For sure, not the Calvinist heretical misinterpretation of Scripture! As well, not the Arminian heretical misinterpretation of Scripture.

We're not going to agree.
Can you leave it at that?

I always respond to posts that are directed to me. It's the polite thing to do.

Or do you need everyone to affirm you?

Where would this strange idea come from? When have I ever sought anyone's affirmation? This is a debate thread. My point is to show what Scripture both says and means. I really don't care what others think, other than to understand their views and, if unbiblical, to show HOW and WHY they are.

Unlike those who disagree with my views. I've given solid logic to show that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. It's not only logical, but it's very biblical. Yet, those on your side don't believe it. They continue to think that salvation or eternal life can be lost or taken away, all IN SPITE of the fact that there are no verses that state such a case.

 

[FreeGrace]

hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

I agree; " There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation". If the Lord Jesus Christ can't keep us saved, we by our own power are in deep trouble. Since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, we ourselves are not powerful enough to break his seal.

Bingo! Well said, sir.

 

[smaller]

No schemes to it. Just a simple trust in what the Lord has for us to know and understand.

Here's where I won't go with you, in the schemes of your positions. I won't blame and accuse Gods son, Adam. That is actually what "the devil" does. Rev. 12:10. And guess where the devil does that? IN MAN. Jesus doesn't 'count sins' against MAN. 2 Cor. 5:19. So why do YOU? See Rev. 12:10. You might figure out that Gods children don't do that. They do what Jesus does.

I don't like to be a tool of blame and accusation to Adam precisely for that reason, because it smacks of "spiritual captivity" speaking from the flesh of those who make those claims against Gods son, Adam. Luke 3:38.

More Logical fallacy's in a vain attempt to avoid answering a simple question, that most others are quick to answer.

Just because half of christianity is under the delusion of some religious fairytales that they leaped headlong into doesn't mean everybody is going to. I don't accept a single word or premise of any of the freewill schemes.

God Himself is going to get out of creation, only what HE wants. That's the way it is. Neither you or I have a single thing to do or say about it.

It's time to come out of the hiding and just be honest.

And buy into your story? Not a chance.

• Did God create Adam with Satan dwelling in his flesh?

Absolutely God made the flesh of man exactly what God Himself meant it to be. Temporal. And subject to many many frailties, amply shown with both Adam and Eve. Am I going to attribute to Adam, what The Creator Himself made? Assuredly not.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— Romans 5:12

Did sin enter the world and the human race through Adam or God?

Everything in creation was/is made by God Himself. There is no other option available.

A. Adam
B. God

You have the scriptural equation already. Deal with it.

A. Adam, Gods son. Luke 3:38
B. God

Do you see God eliminated from your construct? Yep. Why? Because it's GODLESS.

 

[FreeGrace]

dirtfarmer said: ↑
hello gr8grace3, dirtfarmer here

I agree; " There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation". If the Lord Jesus Christ can't keep us saved, we by our own power are in deep trouble. Since we have been sealed with the Holy Spirit, we ourselves are not powerful enough to break his seal.

Your mind is set on the wrong type of seal.

No, he was referring to the sealing with the Holy Spirit as taught in Eph 1:13, 14, 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. It has been your side that tries to claim that "any seal" can be broken, and that all seals are designed to be broken.

Yet, not any evidence from Scripture that this particular seal either can be or has been broken.

Your assuming that we are sealed as a canning jar is sealed, which is not what this seal is referring to.

This seal is God's "seal" of approval for those who believe.

It's quite a bit more than just approval. The seal is FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION, a clear statement of eternal security.

Those who believe and trust in Christ Jesus, are approved, as in a "stamp" or "seal" of approval to receive the Holy Spirit.
Sealed - Strong's G4972 - sphragizō
to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal

1. 
   
   • for security: from Satan
   • since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
   • in order to mark a person or a thing
     1. to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
     2. angels are said to be sealed by God
   • in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
     1. to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
        1. of a written document
        2. to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

1. • 1. 1. Now, please provide evidence from Scripture that this particular seal either can be, or has been, broken, and for what specific reasons.

In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13

This verse tells us WHEN one is sealed with the Holy Spirit. When they have believed.

The Lord doesn't do the "believing" for us, because it is up to us to do the work of believing.
[John 6:29]

Those who believe are saved.

Saved and sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Those who believe for awhile, then no longer believe, have returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

But they are still sealed and still saved. Luke 8:13 does not help your view at all. It does NOT teach that those who cease to believe have ceased to be sealed or saved. That's just an assumption. Totally baseless.

 

[smaller]

Do you believe God created Adam with "sin" in him?

I don't consider Adam and the flesh to be "the same." God breathed His life into the dust. They are not the same. As much as you might try to make them the same, they are not.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That dust pile is that. The breath of life is not that.

Do you believe God created Lucifer with "sin" in him?

Absolutely God created Satan, the devil, as wicked deceiving tempting destroying lawless evil. Deployed him in the Garden, and gave that working reign in the flesh pile. So what? That, God totally meant to do OR the serpent wouldn't have been there. You think the serpent created himself and showed up there in Gods Garden all on his own? I sure don't. Why would I think that?

Now, let me ask you (again) an even more dire posture that your position has:

IS SATAN Gods son? Or was "Satan" in his prior state, Gods son?

Because that is really at the heart of "your message." And you know where I consider that message comes from. It ain't from God or His Word.

 

[smaller]

Why would you think, that God created His son as evil, when He said He created everything good.
JLB

That's why you shouldn't represent anything I say because I have never ever made that claim.

 

[JLB]

That's why you shouldn't represent anything I say because I have never ever made that claim.

Here is your quote:

Absolutely God made the "flesh" of Adam, with ALL of it's inherent FLAWS.

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death

I don't consider Adam and the flesh to be "the same." God breathed His life into the dust. They are not the same. As much as you might try to make them the same, they are not.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

That dust pile is that. The breath of life is not that.

A Human being is spirit, soul and body.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

Read it: He wants your body sanctified.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless.


and again


Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1



Why would you think, that God created His son with these evil attributes in his physical body, when He said He created everything good.

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death

When the word of God says...Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-31


What in Genesis Chapter 1 leads you to believe that God made His own son with these things in him:




JLB

 

[JLB]

I do believe the gospel. Which does NOT contain any works for salvation. We are, according to Paul, saved by grace through faith, not of works. That is the gospel.

The work of God is for you to believe.

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:29

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers... having returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



JLB

 

[smaller]

A Human being is spirit, soul and body.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

You might as well just trot our your "sinless" claims now so they can be refuted by facts.

Read it: He wants your body sanctified.

For me, that means that we are "honest." Not that we "lie" about the state of the quite factual VILE BODY.

Have you ever considered that the Divine Quest here is to spring up HONESTY?

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Did I make that fact big enough to read?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless.
and again
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

That alone should tell "us" the factual state of the BODY, should it?

Do you see Paul claiming the VILE BODY as sinless? Or VILE?

Are you the 'same as' your DUST PILE? I think not.

I personally don't have any interest in claiming what is VILE, as sinless. For me, that is just a very simple lie that I avoid falling into.

Why would you think, that God created His son with these evil attributes in his physical body, when He said He created everything good.

I have no issues with God making the state of the natural flesh, the walking dust pile, subject to vanity, VILENESS, and termination. Whether I agreed or not really wouldn't matter. You position tries quite vainly to make sinless what is vile and on it's way to the dust bin from which it came.

Pretty much not interested in that religious fairy tale myself. I much prefer honesty for some odd reason.

 

[JLB]

You might as well just trot our your "sinless" claims now so they can be refuted by facts.

More logical fallacy.

Your red herring, isn't going to hide your theory.

Here is what the scripture says:

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23

A Human being is spirit, soul and body.

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless.

For me, that means that we are "honest." Not that we "lie" about the state of the quite factual VILE BODY.

Have you ever considered that the Divine Quest here is to spring up HONESTY?

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Did I make that fact big enough to read?


Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless.

Vile doesn't mean despicable, but simply lowly. in comparison to the glorious, immortal body we will have at the resurrection.

We are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of body and spirit.

Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1

We are to cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor, to being a vessel of honor.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:20-21


Why do teach people that God created Adam with a corruptible body, with these things you listed:

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death


The word of God says He created Adam as good.

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you see Paul claiming the VILE BODY as sinless? Or VILE?

Who said our body was sinless?

You continue to "make up" things and attempt to apply them to the discussion, to hide your unbiblical beliefs.

Why do teach people that God created Adam with a corruptible body, with these things you listed:

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death


The word of God says He created Adam as good.

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31

 

[smaller]

Who said our body was sinless?

I think it's pretty obvious it's vile. Phil. 3:21.

Looking forward to ditching it myself.

 

[JLB]

I think it's pretty obvious it's vile. Phil. 3:21.

Looking forward to ditching it myself.

It's not despicable or dirty, but the word for vile is "lowly", or humble.

In comparison to our resurrected body it is "lowly".

Whatever the case may be, this does not relieve us of our responsibility to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit.

This does not relieve us of the responsibility of walking in the spirit.

The main point being that God did not create Adam with sin, or evil in his body.

Why do teach people that God created Adam with a corruptible body, with these things you listed:

Disobedience
Confusion
Lawlessness
Lusts
Deceptions
Dishonor
Corruption
Weakness
Vanity
and ultimately, Death


The word of God says He created Adam as good.

31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 1:31


JLB

 

[smaller]

It's not despicable or dirty, but the word for vile is "lowly", or humble.

Oh really? So you think "indwelling sin" in the flesh is "lowly/humble?" Is that how sin is described now? I don't think so JLB. I think indwelling sin and evil present is exactly that. VILE. Romans 7:17-21. These workings in the flesh are what make the flesh contrary to and against the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. No matter how much we try to "purty it up."

Paul teaches us quite openly and plainly that we are NO BETTER than any other sinner. Imagine that? Romans 3:9.

Earth shattering.

 

[WIP]

I just went through and edited or deleted a bunch more posts again for multiple rule violations. There were others I needed to address as well. People, we are called to act like the Christians we claim to be. How about we start?

 

[FreeGrace]

The work of God is for you to believe.

And that is in the singular. Works don't save. Believing in Christ does save.

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe are no longer believers... having returned to unbelieving.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
JLB

When are you planning to show ANY Scripture that tells us that when one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved.

One should never build their doctrine on mere assumptions, but only on what the Word of God very plainly says. And the Word absolutely does NOT say that if one ceases to believe, they cease to be saved. Presumptive assumption.

otoh, I've shown rock solid logic that shows that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

Now, if my logic is fuzzy, or flat out wrong, then just show how my logic is.

But, to do that, one must show that either:
1. eternal life is not a gift of God. Even though Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God, or
2. God's gifts (and calling) are irrevocable. Even though Rom 11:29 says that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.

This logical approach places your position in a very tight corner. So, if my logic is wrong, prove it.

If your position is the truth, it should be quite easy to prove false doctrine for what it is.

 

[Jim Parker]

calvinism is just as bad as armin theory when coming to eternal security. And I am sure Freegrace will agree.
How can you not see this from all the back and forth?

Calvinism vs.Arminianism was not the topic of discussion.
Neither do those two views encompass all possible views.

They both teach loss of salvation. Armin teaches one will lose salvation. And calvinism teaches that one loses the salvation they "thought" they had.

That is illogical.
One cannot loose something he never had even if they were under the mistaken opinion that they did have it.

Perseverance of the saints is not eternal security. Eternal security is preservation By the Lord Jesus Christ.[?QUOTE]
"When we speak of the doctrine of eternal security, we’re using a popular description of a classical doctrine that we call the perseverance of the saints."
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/what-doctrine-eternal-security/

There ain't a saint yet that has persevered for their salvation.

You are confusing ideas.
And you are confusing the meaning of the words "Preservation" and "Perseverance."
To preserve is to keep, protect, conserve.
This is a transitive verb. The action of the subject effects the object.
The subject (God) preserves the object. (the saint.)
To persevere is to persist with determination.
This is intransitive. The action of the subject effects the subject.
The saint (object) perseveres (in the face of persecution).

Such confusion of the meanings of words will assuredly result in the misunderstanding of religious and secular concepts.

iakov the fool

iakov the fool