Sparrowhawke said:
Question: Is the subject still "Did Jesus contradict the OT"?
-OR- are we now speaking on a new topic: "Is God Good?"
<if we are still following the topic see: Mt 19:17, Mk 10:18, Lk 2:14 for Jesus' words on the subject - hint: he did not contradict the OT and said, "οá½Âδεί ἀγαθÌ ÎÂá¼° εἷ θεÃŒÂ" ---> none good save One: θεÌ (Theos)">
Rousseau, when speaking on "the Right of the Strongest" said, "Obey the powers that be. If this means yield to force, it is a good precept, but superfluous: I can answer for its never being violated. All power comes from God..." Isn't this something that handy touched on?
~SparHawk
I can see where guitarman is coming from though. Jesus did preach that we should love our enemies, turn the other cheek, be forgiving and yet the OT states that God did all kinds of (to our way of thinking) mean things. Jesus contradicting the OT and God being good are inter-related subjects.
I like the reference to Matthew 19:17 you gave SparHawk, which states:
And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
guitarman said:
Jeez, you're not giving me much credit. I like to think that I'd still be a nice person no matter where or when I live. I could still be a bad person without raping and pillaging. I could beat my wife and son and do drugs or rape and murder despite my upbringing. My point was that it's not god or fear of hell or even fear of earthly consequences that stops me: I believe some things are right and wrong.If if was judeo-christian ethics that stops me from doing these things, then how do you explain the fact that many cultures across space and time have taboos against murder or incest? Many of these cultures had nothing and still have nothing to do with judeo-christian values. Rousseau called it a social contract. When people live in a society, they agree to accept certain standards of right and wrong.
Rousseau was in many ways a man ahead of his times. Most people live within their times and are influenced by them. I think if I were to be able to sit down and have chit chat with the man, we would probably agree on interpretations of Romans 1 in which we see that God imparted to all His creation His invisible attributes that speak to all who will hear of God. Rousseau parted ways with John Calvin over the doctrine of original sin, and I have to admit after studying Calvinism for a number of years, so do I. But, then I would probably not agree with all of Rousseau's conclusions either, although the man was a fine thinker.
At any rate, Guitarman, you stated in your opening post for me to "throw some bible at me and let's see what sticks." I do want to delve a bit into the Scriptures because of your statements here:
Doesn't the bible say "none comes to the father but through me"? I thought it was understood that you have to believe that jesus was the son of god and take him into your heart to go to heaven. A person's deeds and actions can certainly make them wind up in hell, but I was under the impression that you have to believe in jesus to get to heaven. If you are saying that the people who go to hell go there because of their deeds and actions, then why does it matter if I'm a christian or not?
Yes, none do come to the Father except through Christ. What exactly is meant by that statement though?
John 5 20"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
This is where we come into understanding that no one will come to the Father, except through Christ. It is Christ who is the final mediator, the Advocate and Judge who will determine who will go on to live eternally with the Father (and Son and Spirit for that matter) and who will not.
However, I don't like this modern teaching that we must "believe that jesus was the son of god and take him into your heart to go to heaven." Believe in the Lord Jesus, yes, but that becomes a bit superfluous as well, because we are told that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. But, the whole "ask Jesus into your heart" thing, I find to be a overly simplistic and actually rather harmful interpretation of Scriptures.
Jesus Himself revealed to us exactly how His judgments will occur. The whole scenario is found in Revelations 20.
11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Here is another passage that is important to understand about who will live eternally and who will be damned.
Romans 1: 8For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
It's also important to look at this:
Acts 17: 22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23"For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD ' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'
29"Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
and I think one of the most overlooked texts in Scripture, this:
Romans9:7 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
So the Day of Judgment comes and God brings mankind full circle, so to speak. He used to walk and talk with Adam and Eve in the garden, now He (and make no mistake, the texts show that this is indeed Jesus) sits in judgment over all. The first thing we see is that there are books and then there is another book. That "other book" is the book of life. The book of life is a record of all who will live in eternity with Christ. There are a number of references to this book, Google "Book of Life" if you want to read them. Basically, it is spoken that names can be blotted out of the book of life, but I've yet to see where anyone is actually added to the book of life. If someone finds that a person is added to the book of life at any given time, please let me know. At any rate, we know from Revelations 13 that the names in the book of life were written from the foundation of the world.
Going by what Paul stated in Romans and other passages that concern young children, I believe that it is biblically sound to say that all start out with their names written in the book of life. Original sin advocates and Calvinists will disagree but I've never found any Scripture that speaks of babies being under damnation for sin and Paul states that he was once "alive" apart from the Law, but then sin became alive and then he died. Obviously he was speaking about spiritual death and this is a solid text for the teaching of an age of accountability, that time when one is fully cognizant of God's commands and chooses to sin against Him.
What the nature of the book of life is, I don't know. I don't know if it material or spiritual or what. We find that the sacred objects that God commanded be in the Temple were copies of objects in heaven, so perhaps the book is a real book as well. Doesn't matter, I believe that the Scriptures teach us that this book holds the names of all who will live and one is in there unless one's name is blotted out.
What of those who names are blotted out then? Well, this is where the "books" come in. Remember our senairo is Judgment Day and books were opened and another book was opened. The "other book" is the book of life containing the names of all those who will live in eternity and the "books" are books in which the deeds of all who are being judged are written. I believe that all the deeds of every one will be written in the books. And what will come to light at that time is that there are none that are righteous, not even one. However, if one is not blotted out of the Book of Life, one goes onward to eternal life.
For those that are cast into hell though, it's important to remember that one is judged exactly according to those deeds that have been written down. This is why I said that I believe that any one who winds up in hell will be there exactly because of their deeds and their actions, not because of beliefs. So, what is the advantage of being a Christian then? Because there aren't any deeds and actions that can be done that is without the taint of sin. Man is horribly adept at doing wrong deeds and doing the right deeds for all the wrong reasons. All of us (except those who are still "alive apart from the Law") have done deeds that are totally worthy of getting our names blotted out of the book of life, and if the name is blotted out, then one is cast down. However, if one seeks out God's forgiveness and seeks out Christ's redemption that He offers because He took the penalty of sin upon Himself, then one is not blotted out of the book of life.
I threw in the texts in Romans 1 and in Acts 17 because invariably in discussions like this, the issue of those who lived in places and times that never heard of the God of the Bible and His Law and how they will be judged arises. This is a part of Scripture where many Christians "shout" and shouldn't. I don't believe that we can automatically assume that one of my however-many-great's-grandfathers who lived in the wilds of Ireland in 1500 bc will automatically be blotted out of the book. What Rousseau referred to as the "social contract" was based in what Paul taught about God writing His invisible attributes into all creation. And, Paul specifically stated to the Athenians that God was willing to overlook the times of ignorance, for those who worshiped gods out of a sense of religious piety born of observing those "invisible attributes".
However, at least for those of us here in American or on the Internet visiting this forum, the "time of ignorance" is long past and what may or may not have been worshiped or not worshiped in the past is no longer relevent. Guitarman, you, I, Sparrowhawke, Minnesota, even Eric, all are fully aware of God's laws and the Gospel of Christ (that gospel being that all of one's deeds may be fully forgiven in Christ). The question then will be what are we going to do about it. We might decide to be like Adam Savage and "reject your reality and substitute my own". Or we might agree with God about the sinfulness of our deeds and embrace the forgiveness that He freely offers. That is a question that those of us who believe in free will figures is a personal one that one works out with God.
Guitarman, I challenge you to accept for a moment here that Jesus is all Who He has claimed to be, that the Bible is correct and that you will someday stand before Him with all your deeds laid bare and coming up woefully short. Up until that point, all you have done regarding Christ is doubt, throw doubt and kvetch about what a rotten God He is. He made sure that you knew that forgiveness was freely offered for all sin, He paid the price for the sin Himself, He offers to impute to you His own righteousness and holiness and you flat out reject it because you in your armchair quarterbacking didn't like some of the things He did to the people of Noah's day or to the Midianites or the fact that He's some kind of homophobe who condoned slavery. Then your deeds prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are in no way holy or righteous to stand before the Father. So what are you going to do then, tell Him that He needs to forgive you and if He doesn't then it just proves how rotten a God He really is?
If you are fully ignorant of God's mercies, His forgiveness, His sacrificial love for you, I could understand there being a justice in His overlooking your ignorance and leaving your name in the book of life. But if all you are going to do is doubt, complain and cast accusations in God's teeth that He can't be real because He isn't running the world the way you see fit, do you really think that it's just to forgive you anyway?
Just giving you something to think about here, and I freely admit that I'm over-exaggerating the case here, just to make a point. And, the point is, there will be no one in hell who is not there for a good and just reason in God's eyes. As much as I love Adam Savage (and I truly do enjoy him) there are some realities that won't be substituted.
Jesus didn't contradict the God of the OT. The God of the OT was indeed an exacting, jealous, vengeful and wrathful God. So is Jesus, and the wrath that He oversees being poured out on the world in the last days will be nothing like what we've seen before. But, just as the God of the OT was also forgiving, loving, filled with blessings, even upon those who turned their backs against Him time and time and time again, so Jesus also sacrificed Himself to pay the price for all sins and freely offers forgiveness to whosoever.
