Did Jesus Teach Everlasting Torment for Unbelievers?

[lovely]

God is Love, but He is not our "notion" of love. God's love is not unconditional for all, but only for His children. Those, (and here is the you sentence yourself argument coming, Drew) who do not believe God (on His Son, Jesus), are not receiving the mercy that God grants. They, along with God's children deserve Hell, but have rejected the blood atonement to pay their debt...therefore, they will remain in the clutches of satan, and will pay that debt for all eternity.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love

16 And we know and have believed the love which God hath in us. God is love; and he that abideth in love abideth in God, and God abideth in him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins.

There was a need to send Jesus...for our sin...to be the propitiation for them. Our atonement, our restoration, to make us once again congruent with the Father in Heaven. There was a need...for the wages of sin are death...eternal death as Jesus teaches. It is OUR sin according to the Word of God...there is a need for atonement according to the Word of God. What was the need of Christ’s atonement, if it was only to save us from a temporal discipline?

17 Herein is love made perfect with us, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as he is, even so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love, because he first loved us.

Fear hath punishment, why? Because if we trust in Jesus, we may have boldness on the day of judgment, but if we do not, then we should fear. What are we fearing? Eternal damnation, punishment for our own unbelief.

The natural consequences of Sin are in place. God’s presence is Holy, and no one who rejects the blood of the Lamb will enter into His Holy presence...this is the law of God...in place already. God is not a liar, and He will not tolerate sin in His presence. Just as gravity is in place, it will not change to spare suffering.. If we have the knowledge of gravity, then jump off a building, is it correct to blame God for making the law? God has put judgement in place for those who are NOT His children, and they will be judged for their unbelief, and held accountable for every sin. The suffering in this world signifies that there is a consequence to sin. It serves to teach us, and discipline us now...both the physical, and the spiritual. It literally pleased God (Isaiah) to send His Son to die in our place, and shed His pure, and Holy, blood as propitiation for our sin. Now if you believe we are not guilty sinners, then maybe there is more you need to study then just Hell.

Now some believe that Hell is not a place, but a state. Let’s say this is correct, though I do not believe that is what Scripture teaches. Jesus likens it to fire...burning. Pain is more than physical, and even just being in a state of Hell is enough to torment one for eternity...if it is like burning, yet never burning up then I still would not want to go there.

Now I think that Scripture teaches that this punishment is both a physical, and spiritual, consequence to unbelief. But the other opinion in this thread, and Drew has been most clear about it, is that God can not be both love, and have an eternal punishment...that he would assume would be for the purpose of restoration. However, the restoration process is for the here and now in this world, not for the day of judgement when God knows that a heart has clearly rejected Him, and His Lamb...that is the time for the consequence and judgement for such a spirit.

God’s children (those who believe in Christ, have repented for their sin, and walk in love...signifying that belief) will not have eternal punishment, but eternal life...â€Âfor the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.†If the wages of sin are death, and belief in Christ is required for the gift of God, life...well, then death is for those who are not in the family of God. These are the people who will never be made restored to the place of being congruent with the Father in this world...they desire to remain seperated, and will for eternity. They, through their own unbelief, will not be objects of mercy and love, but rather objects of wrath to be thrown in to the fire. And those who will reject Christ unto death, are not God’s children. They are the enemies of God. Hell was made for satan, and His demons...those people who are not God’s children will be cast in with their master that they have chosen to align themselves with.

So, what about God being love. Well, God is all that is good...love, holy, truth, light, justice, mercy, and so on. Just as justice is tempered with mercy, it is also truthful and just. If God as given us a free gift of His love (literally loving us enough to be pleased at the bruising of His Son, Christ.) , and we reject it in our unbelief, then we are susceptible to the consequences of that unbelief. The natural consequences that Adam and Eve were warned about from the beginning...a physical and spiritual death. We are essentially asking not to be made perfect in love, and not to be made restored to God to spend an eternity with Him in holiness, and in harmony with Him, and the things of Heaven. So, the wooing of the Holy Spirit, and the encouragement to heed God’s call...be it through suffering, the Word, preaching, witness...etc. is given now in this world, and once it is rejected in a final manner...those who reject it are sentenced (judgement). And, God in His mercy...has given us the knowledge of what that is sentence will be in advance to encourage us to believe on the Son.

We must humble ourselves before God, ask for forgiveness for the very sin that Christ died on the cross to atone, and believe on Him...walk after Him in love and in truth. The snide comments, the logical debates, the self-righteous tones we all inflict on each other will mean nothing in the time when every “knee shall bowâ€Â. I want to represent God in an honest fashion, as I said before...if you want to make him fit into your mind’s idea of Him, then I must say it. You are fooling yourself...lying to yourself about who He is, and His attributes...and you are lying to those who are looking to you to be a beacon of honest, truthful love. You are mocking God, and making the Gospel a lie. So, yes...God is love, I completely agree. The fact that He has given us advance notice of the consequence of our unbelief, and that fact that He has provided a beautiful, sacrificial Lamb...is clear evidence to that beautiful, holy, powerful, good, merciful...love.

The Lord bless you all.

 

[guibox]

lovely,

God is not just a God of love but of mercy and justice. All His attributes must agree with each other and not contradict. Allowing someone to burn in hell for eternity is not 'justice' or 'mercy'. It definitely is not love.

If God is also a God of wrath, then this must also meet the aforementioned attributes. Does being a God of wrath to allow sinners to be tormented for eternity by fire fit?

No it doesn't.

A God who allows sinners to choose their destiny and cling to the world of sin which will be destroyed fits all God's attributes.

He loves us enough to respect our decisions to reject Him. This is love. He knows that sin must be destroyed and this is the just penalty for sin (Did you yourself not say, 'the wages of sin is death'? This is justice. In this process, the sinner goes down with the sinking ship (much to God's sorrow) but they don't need to suffer for eternity for they must also meet the just requirements of sin: death. This is mercy. The destruction of the wicked is a secondary act brought about by the process of destroying the earth with fire. It is not a place created by God sometime before man existed so sinners could go there when they die.

God creating a hell for the specific purpose of punishment (for there is no redemptive or reformative purpose for it to exist), give the wicked immortality to suffer those pains of hell, and allow them to burn for eternity without any hope of relief or redemption DOES NOT fit the attributes of God.

 

[Lyric's Dad]

Yes, because He is love.... :roll:

This sardonic remark is precisely the point. The notion of eternal torment is so unworkable in light of the doctrine of love that to accept it (eternal torment) is to cause the notion of love to lose any meaningful content. It is fine to say God is both loving and also sends people to Hell for eternity, but this will only work if one is willing to use the word love as a meaningless placeholder. (If you want to try the "we send ourselves to hell argument, go ahead - but I think it does not work).

If one actually does the work of asking "what is love?", if one actually analyzes the concepts involved, the doctrine of love cannot be reconciled with eternal punishment.

Here is my challenge to those who believe that eternal punishment is consistent with a loving God: explain, in your own words, what "love" actually means and then see where this gets us.

Amen Drew.

 

[Windozer]

If one actually does the work of asking "what is love?", if one actually analyzes the concepts involved, the doctrine of love cannot be reconciled with eternal punishment.

Is that a fact????

Well then how do you all account for (or reconcile) the fact that after the fall of man, which resulted in man being evicted from the Garden of Eden, we were all left to the eternal corrupt situation that we have on here earth? (eternal here meaning for as long as we are on this earth.)

Those are consequences that have resulted in (or certainly appear as) punishment. And God has provided a way for believers to be free from that. But if one does not accept that... Well there are consequences.... Which could well be viewed as punishment.

 

[Soma-Sight]

Is that a fact????

Well then how do you all account for (or reconcile) the fact that after the fall of man, which resulted in man being evicted from the Garden of Eden, we were all left to the eternal corrupt situation that we have on here earth? (eternal here meaning for as long as we are on this earth.)

Those are consequences that have resulted in (or certainly appear as) punishment. And God has provided a way for believers to be free from that. But if one does not accept that... Well there are consequences.... Which could well be viewed as punishment.

Or a Demiurge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demiurge

 

[SputnikBoy]

Sputnikboy wrote:

So, God will cause people to suffer literal eternal torment forever and ever? Okay.

These are your words. God has paid the wages of sin, and His Son shed His precious blood so that we have a sacrifical Lamb if we believe in Him. John 3:16 "For God so loved the World, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish,

Perish? What does 'perish' mean, lovely?

but have everlasting life." "For the wages of Sin is death,

Death? What does 'death' mean, lovely?

but the gift of God is eternal life

As opposed to 'eternal death'.

through Jesus Christ our Lord."

I believe that eternal death, and Hell, are the wages of Sin,

There you go again, lovely. So you DO agree with the concept of 'eternal death'? So do I. It's called annihilation. 'Eternal death' is the eternal consequence of annihilation.

and that if God, in His mercy has provided a payment for such a consequence, then we should be so, so thankful for that provision. Through one man sin entered the world.

Please do not misquote me is such a fashion.

Excuse me? How did I misquote you? You were the one who made reference to 'eternal death'. You did so again above. I was just agreeing with this concept.

You can be sarcastic, or misquote me in any other way,

But I DIDN'T misquote you! And if there is any hint of sarcasm it's because you seem to be doing a double take on this issue.

but do not assume that I would ever say such things about the God, creator, in Heaven. The Lord bless you.

So what DO you assume to say, lovely? Are you saying that God will NOT torment the unrighteous in hell for ever and ever? I'm confused as to your stand on this issue.

 

[destiny]

You made yourself very clear lovely and I agree.
The only problem that I see is that some here will attack anything that doesn't tickle their ears. You cast your pearls and... well....
:

 

[Lewis]

You know, I don't get it. The Bible says He will do this and people still don't believe it. I just don't get it. They just can't see a loving God banishing you to a literal hell. And what gets me they say they believe in the Bible yet they have a problem with that. I expect people who don't believe the Bible to act that way.
But the poll results don't paint a good picture about some so called believers.

 

[wavy]

The bible can be interpreted many ways. There are thousands of different interpretations in the world, and no, I am not saying we can interpret it the way we want to.

However, anyone can say some one else doesn't believe the bible just because they see things differently. I can argue that argument all day.

That goes along with "I have the Holy Spirit so I know what's true" tactic. Anybody can say that...

 

[antitox]

The bible can be interpreted many ways. There are thousands of different interpretations in the world, and no, I am not saying we can interpret it the way we want to.

However, anyone can say some one else doesn't believe the bible just because they see things differently. I can argue that argument all day.

That goes along with "I have the Holy Spirit so I know what's true" tactic. Anybody can say that...

No, but that's the standard excuse. The bible's word usage and various accounts contained therein give a good understanding of its intent and application. Ignoring those elements allows people to interpret it according to their social preferences.

 

[Lewis]

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:31-46

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

 

[SputnikBoy]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'Everlasting fire' in this case means for as long as it takes to consume what it is burning. Other scriptures tell us clearly that the wicked will perish. We therefore have to contrast 'the everlasting fire' scriptures with the others. Otherwise we get serious contradictions.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The 'punishment' will be everlasting in its consequence. The wicked will not come back for a second shot. The 'punishing', however, will be temporary. Again, the scriptures tell us that only the righteous have immortality. The unrighteous DO NOT have immortality and will therefore perish.

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

It's 'plain' to you because you don't recognize the figurative and symbolic language of this scripture. One more time: Everlasting LIFE vs. Everlasting DEATH. One cannot be continually made to perish. They either have perished or they haven't. Comparing scripture with scripture regarding this issue makes it VERY plain indeed.

Um, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you? Such is the power of traditional thought. Another merit badge for the RCC!

 

[guibox]

You know, I don't get it. The Bible says He will do this and people still don't believe it. I just don't get it. They just can't see a loving God banishing you to a literal hell. And what gets me they say they believe in the Bible yet they have a problem with that. I expect people who don't believe the Bible to act that way.
But the poll results don't paint a good picture about some so called believers.

Lewis, it's not like we're ignoring clear truth or pulling stuff out of the air here. The Bible strongly supports annihilations and non-immortality of the soul (immortality for the wicked is non-existent).

One must also study context and look at the verses exegetically with the original languages in mind and also support with corroborating texts. A picture must be painted and not a theology based on one or two texts.

Also, one's views of certain scriptures will determine what one believes it is saying.

Why can't people see this and automatically jump on the bandwagon saying that their way is right and all others are ignoring truth and preaching false doctrine?

This is foolish, one track, closeminded thinking and it has never done anybody any good and can only stop people from really seeing what truth is.

Soon I will presnt a post that shows that the language used to support eternal torment is merely metaphorical language copied from other instances in the scriptures to show annihilation.

 

[destiny]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'Everlasting fire' in this case means for as long as it takes to consume what it is burning. Other scriptures tell us clearly that the wicked will perish. We therefore have to contrast 'the everlasting fire' scriptures with the others. Otherwise we get serious contradictions.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The 'punishment' will be everlasting in its consequence. The wicked will not come back for a second shot. The 'punishing', however, will be temporary. Again, the scriptures tell us that only the righteous have immortality. The unrighteous DO NOT have immortality and will therefore perish.

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

It's 'plain' to you because you don't recognize the figurative and symbolic language of this scripture. One more time: Everlasting LIFE vs. Everlasting . One cannot be continually made to perish. They either have perished or they haven't. Comparing scripture with scripture regarding this issue makes it VERY plain indeed.

Um, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you? Such is the power of traditional thought. Another merit badge for the RCC!

Yeah right. Earlier you were saying that UR sounded scriptural to you. Then you decided to latch on to annihilation....which ever way the wind blows for you huh.

 

[SputnikBoy]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'Everlasting fire' in this case means for as long as it takes to consume what it is burning. Other scriptures tell us clearly that the wicked will perish. We therefore have to contrast 'the everlasting fire' scriptures with the others. Otherwise we get serious contradictions.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The 'punishment' will be everlasting in its consequence. The wicked will not come back for a second shot. The 'punishing', however, will be temporary. Again, the scriptures tell us that only the righteous have immortality. The unrighteous DO NOT have immortality and will therefore perish.

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

It's 'plain' to you because you don't recognize the figurative and symbolic language of this scripture. One more time: Everlasting LIFE vs. Everlasting . One cannot be continually made to perish. They either have perished or they haven't. Comparing scripture with scripture regarding this issue makes it VERY plain indeed.

Um, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you? Such is the power of traditional thought. Another merit badge for the RCC!

Yeah right. Earlier you were saying that UR sounded scriptural to you. Then you decided to latch on to annihilation....which ever way the wind blows for you huh.

Listen up, my friend. I haven't got a clue what you're talking about here but you can rest assured that my take on this issue is and always has been consistent with those I express above. You've evidently gotten me mixed up with someone else but that's okay ...you don't even need to apologize to me. Just research the scriptures on this issue with an unbiased mind and you'll come to the same conclusion that I have.

 

[Solo]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'Everlasting fire' in this case means for as long as it takes to consume what it is burning. Other scriptures tell us clearly that the wicked will perish. We therefore have to contrast 'the everlasting fire' scriptures with the others. Otherwise we get serious contradictions.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The 'punishment' will be everlasting in its consequence. The wicked will not come back for a second shot. The 'punishing', however, will be temporary. Again, the scriptures tell us that only the righteous have immortality. The unrighteous DO NOT have immortality and will therefore perish.

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

It's 'plain' to you because you don't recognize the figurative and symbolic language of this scripture. One more time: Everlasting LIFE vs. Everlasting DEATH. One cannot be continually made to perish. They either have perished or they haven't. Comparing scripture with scripture regarding this issue makes it VERY plain indeed.

Um, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you? Such is the power of traditional thought. Another merit badge for the RCC!

How long did it take for the fire to consume the bush that was burning in front of Moses?
How long did it take for the fire to consume Shadrach, Meshach, and Abddndgo?
Both were against the finite human understanding, just as everlasting punishment and everlasting fire is negative to human understanding, but God never lies, and what he says is truth whether you believe it or not.

 

[SputnikBoy]

How long did it take for the fire to consume the bush that was burning in front of Moses?
How long did it take for the fire to consume Shadrach, Meshach, and Abddndgo?
Both were against the finite human understanding, just as everlasting punishment and everlasting fire is negative to human understanding, but God never lies, and what he says is truth whether you believe it or not.

Solo, no one is saying that God is lying. You added that all by yourself. The scriptural verses in question that deal with fire and hell are presented in metaphorical language. Speaking in metaphors, hyperbole, figurative, illustrative language is common place in the scriptures. Paul does it regularly. Do you take the prophesies as illustrated in the Book of Revelation as being literal beasts, women, waters, harlets, etc.? Of course not. Do they make God a liar? Of course not. The same principle is in place with regard to 'everlasting fire and punishment'.

 

[guibox]

How long did it take for the fire to consume the bush that was burning in front of Moses?.

Exactly, Solo.

The bush was burning but it was NOT 'consumed'. Did you know that the fires at the end will 'burn up' 'consume' and 'devour' the wicked? Hence it will do the exact OPPOSITE to what was happening to the bush.

We must let the scriptures define it's own terms. 'forever' 'day and night', 'unquenchable fire', 'worm dieth not'...all these terms are used in the scriptures to denote finite and completeness especially when talking about the wicked.

* Compare Revelation 20:8 to Exodus 3:2, Malachi 4:1,3 and 2 Peter 3:10

* Compare Mark 9:43,44 with Jeremiah 17:27 and Isaiah 66:24 which speaks about dead corpses.

* Compare Revelation 14:10,11 to Isaiah 34:10, 1 Samuel 1:22,28 and Psalms 37:20,38

* Compare Revelation 20:14 to John 3:16, Romans 6:23, Malachi 4:1,3, Psalms 37:20,36

Look these texts up, Solo and others. You will see that the bible explains itself quite clearly and all these terms are used to support annihilation.

Again, the wicked do not have eternal life. Hence these terms apply to them as temporal. The scriptures back this up. If the wicked do not have immortality, they cannot be punished forever.

If they are, then it is God DIRECTLY making them suffer hell and not the old 'God doesn't send sinners to hell, they put themselves there', trying to absolve God from it like He is some third party observer.

If God created this place for the SOLE purpose of punishment and God KNOWS who He is going to send there, and God gives them immortality to suffer for eternity, then God is a DIRECT influence and participator in their punishment and suffering.

Again, where is a god of love, justice and mercy here?

 

[Lyric's Dad]

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

'Everlasting fire' in this case means for as long as it takes to consume what it is burning. Other scriptures tell us clearly that the wicked will perish. We therefore have to contrast 'the everlasting fire' scriptures with the others. Otherwise we get serious contradictions.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The 'punishment' will be everlasting in its consequence. The wicked will not come back for a second shot. The 'punishing', however, will be temporary. Again, the scriptures tell us that only the righteous have immortality. The unrighteous DO NOT have immortality and will therefore perish.

Now what does that say ? How plain can it be said.

It's 'plain' to you because you don't recognize the figurative and symbolic language of this scripture. One more time: Everlasting LIFE vs. Everlasting DEATH. One cannot be continually made to perish. They either have perished or they haven't. Comparing scripture with scripture regarding this issue makes it VERY plain indeed.

Um, you haven't got a clue what I'm talking about, have you? Such is the power of traditional thought. Another merit badge for the RCC!

How long did it take for the fire to consume the bush that was burning in front of Moses?
How long did it take for the fire to consume Shadrach, Meshach, and Abddndgo?
Both were against the finite human understanding, just as everlasting punishment and everlasting fire is negative to human understanding, but God never lies, and what he says is truth whether you believe it or not.

So you now are going to compare the fire of God's love and mercy and the way in which He came to Moses with some eternal torment? Strange.

I don't remember any of the above people screaming in pain and torment. The comparison doesn't work.

 

[Solo]

The everlasting punishment and everlasting fire that Jesus teaches in scripture is not metaphorical language. He uses the same word for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as he uses in speaking of eternal life. Twist and turn the scripture all that you want, and you will continue to propagate a doctrine of devils as prophesied as happening in the latter times, to those that need to hear the truth.

I don't have to worry about eternal torment because of being born again, but those of you who don't believe in the security of the believer or have friends and family that are not saved must come up with a ploy to ease and comfort your souls with some grandiose form of no punishment that goes against the teaching of our Lord and Savior because of your lack of faith in him knowing best.

Jesus is not teaching in metaphorical language about everlasting punishment, everlasting fire, or eternal life in this passage. Please don't twist our Lord and Saviors Words to fit you diabolical scheme against the truth of God.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Matthew 25:41-45