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Did Jesus teach what is called now Tulip ?

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brightfame52 said:
journeyman
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brightfame52 said:
Yes but they are His Sheep before they believe in Jesus as well, and is why they believe in Jesus. Jesus said He had sheep that would believe in Him in the future Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The words I have are in the present tense, the words They shall hear my voice is in the future tense. See He already had them by election, but they were yet to be born !
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brightflame52,
The words, "if any man hear his voice" and
"believe because of the works I do", are also present tense.
He's teaching his sheep are believers in him and belief in him is caused by what he's doing.
Why is that hard to understand?
 
journeyman said:
brightflame52,
The words, "if any man hear his voice" and
"believe because of the works I do", are also present tense.
He's teaching his sheep are believers in him and belief in him is caused by what he's doing.
Why is that hard to understand?
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Believing is a choice WE make in response to input. It always is, whether we believe the false or the true.
 
brightfame52 said:
Again the property of election is stated in Jesus words Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him
The "as many as thou has been given him" are separated from the all flesh, thats the principle of election.

Jesus would go on to say, that His prayer of High Priestlyhood wasnt for all mankind, but restricted to them the Father has given Him Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Evidently the whole world in some special sense wasn't Gods, simply put they were of Gods special election of grace.
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The Bible says the whole world is His. And that God gives doesn’t mean it’s unconditional. In fact, it’s very strongly conditional as are the majority of Gods promises.
 
Jesus taught the Irrestible grace doctrine or the effectual call pf the elect., He implied it in His statement in Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This drawing here is nothing less than regeneration and the effectual call unto Faith.
 
Jn.12 says,

Now a great many of the Jews knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus’ sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, because on account of him many of the Jews went away and believed in Jesus. Jn.12:9-11

There's nothing mysterious about being "drawn" to Christ by the power he displayed, but our Lord is teaching on drawing men by being lifted up (crucified).
This is why the Lamb of God said,

He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me Jn.12:25-26

He will "draw all men" that way, by our love of his suffering.....so embrace the hard times showing the love and mercy of Jesus.
 
brightfame52 said:
Jesus taught the Irrestible grace doctrine or the effectual call pf the elect., He implied it in His statement in Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

This drawing here is nothing less than regeneration and the effectual call unto Faith.
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The same word “draw” is used when the men drew in the fish. It wasn’t irresistible. The fish resisted and sometimes the nets broke and the fish got away. Jesus didn’t teach that.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
The same word “draw” is used when the men drew in the fish. It wasn’t irresistible. The fish resisted and sometimes the nets broke and the fish got away. Jesus didn’t teach that.
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Jesus is using the word draw in its metaphorical sense:

  1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The word draw also denotes to persuade. Thats what Faith is being persuaded. The word Faith is pistis: and its based in and derived from the noun peithō:
  1. persuade
    1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
    2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
    3. to tranquillise
    4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
  2. be persuaded
    1. to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
So Jesus drawing is actually by His Power and Grace of the Spirit giving Faith, persuading those He was lifted up for to believe in Him, and its efficacious, cant be resisted.
 
This drawing by Jesus Christ is effectual, they are those He effectually calls Rom 1:6

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
These are they when Jesus was lifted up on the Cross for, He was doing so as their Surety Sponser of a Better Covenant Heb 7:22

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
This was for not all humanity but all His People Matt 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now this Call is His Drawing them to Himself Jn 10:3-4
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

This speaks if Irrestible Grace !
 
brightfame52 said:
Jesus is using the word draw in its metaphorical sense:

  1. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

The word draw also denotes to persuade. Thats what Faith is being persuaded. The word Faith is pistis: and its based in and derived from the noun peithō:
  1. persuade
    1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
    2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
    3. to tranquillise
    4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
  2. be persuaded
    1. to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
So Jesus drawing is actually by His Power and Grace of the Spirit giving Faith, persuading those He was lifted up for to believe in Him, and its efficacious, cant be resisted.
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No he isn’t. Men will be attracted to him and that is true. But just as when he was alive, those he draws can walk away.
 
The ones Christ draws to Himself in the Irresistible call Jn 12:32, all of them, they are already saved, that was accomplished by His Own work for them, and the Spirits work in them, they are being drawn to Faith. The Irresistible call isnt for the lost, but the saved.
 
brightfame52 said:
The ones Christ draws to Himself in the Irresistible call Jn 12:32, all of them, they are already saved, that was accomplished by His Own work for them, and the Spirits work in them, they are being drawn to Faith. The Irresistible call isnt for the lost, but the saved.
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That verse doesn’t support your position. But no verse does. But if you think it does, then you must be a universalist as it says ALL MEN and since “draw” to you means no choice, you must believe all are saved. He didn’t say he draws the elect.
 
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Dorothy Mae said:
That verse doesn’t support your position. But no verse does. But if you think it does, then you must be a universalist as it says ALL MEN and since “draw” to you means no choice, you must believe all are saved. He didn’t say he draws the elect.
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Yes it does, all the ones drawn are saved prior to being drawn/called ! And no Im not a universalist that's your false accusation of me. See the lost whom Christ didnt die for arent saved, nor drawn, they on their way to hell.
 

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling​

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,

effectually to call,

by his Word and Spirit,

out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

taking away their heart of stone,

and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

renewing their wills,

and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

These are the works of God and therefore they are EFFECTUAL
 
brightfame52 said:
Yes it does, all the ones drawn are saved prior to being drawn/called ! And no Im not a universalist that's your false accusation of me. See the lost whom Christ didnt die for arent saved, nor drawn, they on their way to hell.
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He says nothing of the kind though. Your OP is did Jesus teach TULIP and this doesn’t support that he did. You have to add “story” to the actual verse.
 
Those whom Jesus draws to Himself because He was lifted up for them, which means He died for them, they being already Justified by His Blood, are being irresistibly called to Faith and discipleship, to follow Him. Jesus speaks of these being compelled to come in Lk 14:23

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full.

The word compel is similar to the word draw and how its used metaphorically for to impel by inward power. The word denotes persuasion which is faith, and God uses the Gospel which is the power of God to them that are believing, they believe because of they are powerfully persuaded by the Spirit and the Gospel.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
He says nothing of the kind though. Your OP is did Jesus teach TULIP and this doesn’t support that he did. You have to add “story” to the actual verse.
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Everyone reads the verses.
The verses are meant to be understood as gifted pastors and teachers cause people to understand the Biblical meaning.
Neh8 : 4-8
Many ignore this by taking 1 jn2:27 out of context, then inflicting personal errors on the rest of us, as if they alone have the truth.
 
Iconoclast said:
Everyone reads the verses.
The verses are meant to be understood as gifted pastors and teachers cause people to understand the Biblical meaning.
Neh8 : 4-8
Many ignore this by taking 1 jn2:27 out of context, then inflicting personal errors on the rest of us, as if they alone have the truth.
Click to expand...
The authors of these pieces did not intend them for pastors and teachers but ordinary believers.
 
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