Dorothy Mae
Member
So when is the “U” coming out so we can shoot that down?
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Did Jesus teach what is called now Tulip ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
As far as I know Jesus only had the one conversation with Nichodemus. You know what Jesus said about letting the blind lead the blind, well we haven't only gone the one mile, we have practically gone round the world.
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Dorothy Mae
Member
I meant Jesus didn’t stop telling people the truth just because they wouldn’t receive it.
Dorothy Mae
Member
The whole of Jesus’ teaching and preaching makes absolutely no sense if the U is true.
journeyman
Member
The U comes when someone can't explain why God chose to speak to everyone who could never hear him.
Did Jesus teach unconditional election ?
In John 6:37,39 He talks about them the Father gave Him
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
The Father gave Him a People to redeem before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-7. They were chosen in Him and were to fall in Adam, hence their need to be redeemed
In vs 37 Jesus uses the present tense for the word give, those who were chosen in Him and given to Him in eternity will be the ones coming to Him then and in the future.
Jesus uses the perfect active indicative for the word given in Vs 39, a action completed in the past with effects into the present. So they had been given to Him once and for all in the past, which indicates their election in Him before the foundation.
In John 6:37,39 He talks about them the Father gave Him
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
The Father gave Him a People to redeem before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-7. They were chosen in Him and were to fall in Adam, hence their need to be redeemed
In vs 37 Jesus uses the present tense for the word give, those who were chosen in Him and given to Him in eternity will be the ones coming to Him then and in the future.
Jesus uses the perfect active indicative for the word given in Vs 39, a action completed in the past with effects into the present. So they had been given to Him once and for all in the past, which indicates their election in Him before the foundation.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
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Dorothy Mae
Member
It doesn’t logically follow that all
who come to Him are therefore given to him. That’s a fallacy in your thinking.
Jesus actually said of those given to him (past tense) He only lost (past tense) one that scripture would be fulfilled. Those were his friends in his lifetime. He didn’t say this of future believers but at the end of his life used the past tense.
Those were his friends. Jesus taught that in the last days many will fall away from the faith. Many. Jesus did not assume responsibility for them. They weren’t given to Him because he was no longer walking the earth with them.
That scripture doesn’t say that or anything even close to that which is likely why you didn’t cut and paste it.
No, that is only present tense. Later towards the end he uses exclusively past tense, that he lost (past) none but the one.
Not at all. They were given to Him AND he chose them to accompany Him and he his apostles and friends. All past tense at the end of his life. Present tense during the training years.
Again the property of election is stated in Jesus words Jn 17:2
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him
The "as many as thou has been given him" are separated from the all flesh, thats the principle of election.
Jesus would go on to say, that His prayer of High Priestlyhood wasnt for all mankind, but restricted to them the Father has given Him Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Evidently the whole world in some special sense wasn't Gods, simply put they were of Gods special election of grace.
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him
The "as many as thou has been given him" are separated from the all flesh, thats the principle of election.
Jesus would go on to say, that His prayer of High Priestlyhood wasnt for all mankind, but restricted to them the Father has given Him Jn 17:9
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Evidently the whole world in some special sense wasn't Gods, simply put they were of Gods special election of grace.
Dorothy Mae
Member
The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof.
For as many as received Him (notice each man is receiving or choosing Jesus) to them he gave the power to become the sons of God. It’s not saying anyone was given to Jesus first.
So the point turns on when the moment of our choosing and His occurs, which by no means says a different choice can’t be made later. (“I’ll spit you out if my mouth.” Jesus said which is the opposite of beging given and kept.)
electedbyhim
Member
This is wrong
You conveniently left out verse 13
John 1:12-13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Grace and peace to you
electedbyhim
Member
Grace and peace to you
electedbyhim
Member
Please, teach us.
Let's do TULIP the correct way...You've changed it a bit to make it sound more pallitable.
The following is what John Calvin taught and also the Westminster Confession of Faith.
(you really should use the bible instead).
T: TOTAL DEPRAVITY.
MAN IS SO DEPRAVED THAT HE IS UNABLE TO SEEK GOD SO THAT GOD MUST PULL HIM OUT OF THE MIRE TO EVEN GET HIS ATTENTION.
Nowhere does scripture state this.
In fact there are 10's of verses that state that God is happy to have those SEEKING HIM.
1 Chronicles 22:19
19 Now devote your heart and soul to seeking the LORD your God.
Acts 17:27
27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
U: UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
GOD CHOOSES, FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME, WHO WILL BE SAVED AND WHO WILL BE DAMNED.
THIS IS KNOWN AS DOUBLE PREDESTINATION. GOD'S CHOICE IS BASED ON NOTHING AT ALL
AND MAN HAS NO SAY IN THE MATTER AND MUST ACCEPT HIS DESTINY AS GOD HAS CHOSEN IT.
Nowhere does scripture state this.
In fact, God desires that we know how to save ourselves.
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Romans 10:17
17Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
Acts 16:31
31 Believe in the Lord and you will be saved.
L: LIMITED ATONEMENT
JESUS DIDN'T DIE FOR THE WHOLE WORLD, BUT ONLY FOR THE PERSONS GOD CHOSE TO SAVE FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME.
This teaching is so radical that even some Calvinist theologians cannot accept it.
Jesus died for the whole world, those that wish to can take advantage of this fact.
1 John 2:2
2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
I: IRRESTISTIBLE GRACE
THIS MEANS THAT GOD'S GRACE CANNOT BE RESISTED.
BASICALLY, IT MEANS YOU'RE GETTING SAVED, WHETHER YOU WANT TO OR NOT.
IT TAKES AWAY YOUR FREE WILL AND MAKES YOU A ROBOT CREATED BY GOD.
This teaching is not biblical.
Scripture states that God's grace can be resisted. It's up to man to accept it.
Man has free will and God will not impose salvation on those that do not desire it.
Galatians 5:19
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
John 15:10
10IF you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.
John 5:40
40and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life.
P: PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS
CALVINISM TEACHES THAT, OF COURSE, IF GOD CHOOSES YOU, HE WILL SEE TO IT THAT YOU MAKE IT TO THE END.
IS THIS WHAT SCRIPTURE TEACHES? IT COULD BE DEBATED.
BUT THIS CANNOT...THE CALVINIST'S SALVATION IS NOT SECURE AFTER ALL...
Who would want to worship such a God as the following?
..that there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.
John Calvin's Institutes
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8
Right.
Why preach to the already saved chosen from the beginning of the world?
Why preach to the unsaved since it is not up to them to desire salvation?
Inconsistencies galore.
For goodness sake...
Verse 13 means that we are not saved by works.
Don't you believe that??
Dorothy Mae
Member
One of the best responses to Calvinism I have ever read!!
The L in TULIP is Limited atonement, did Jesus teach it ?
Yes Jesus was very specific as to whom He would die for, give His Life for, the Sheep of His. Twice He emphasized it Jn 10:9-1111,15
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The Sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jesus is very specific , exact, precise as to whom He is to lay down His Life for. The Sheep, and the Sheep both times in Vs 11,115 has the definite article and are genitive indicating they are His Sheep, those given to Him in Election.
Also Jesus disowns some men as being of His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
These are they He shall say, depart from me, I never knew you as one of my Sheep !
Yes Jesus was very specific as to whom He would die for, give His Life for, the Sheep of His. Twice He emphasized it Jn 10:9-1111,15
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they[The Sheep] might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jesus is very specific , exact, precise as to whom He is to lay down His Life for. The Sheep, and the Sheep both times in Vs 11,115 has the definite article and are genitive indicating they are His Sheep, those given to Him in Election.
Also Jesus disowns some men as being of His Sheep that He died for Jn 10:26
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
These are they He shall say, depart from me, I never knew you as one of my Sheep !
journeyman
Member
The sheep are people who believe Jesus,
by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved Jn.10:9
"Any man" could believe in Jesus from the miracles he performed,
though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Jn.10:38
Jesus healed a man born blind (Jn.9:7) and then said any man has the ability to see, or hear about what he did and believe it.
by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved Jn.10:9
"Any man" could believe in Jesus from the miracles he performed,
though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Jn.10:38
Jesus healed a man born blind (Jn.9:7) and then said any man has the ability to see, or hear about what he did and believe it.
journeyman
Yes but they are His Sheep before they believe in Jesus as well, and is why they believe in Jesus. Jesus said He had sheep that would believe in Him in the future Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The words I have are in the present tense, the words They shall hear my voice is in the future tense. See He already had them by election, but they were yet to be born !
Yes but they are His Sheep before they believe in Jesus as well, and is why they believe in Jesus. Jesus said He had sheep that would believe in Him in the future Jn 10:16
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The words I have are in the present tense, the words They shall hear my voice is in the future tense. See He already had them by election, but they were yet to be born !