Did the Son have a beginning?

[JesusFan]

Brothers and sisters in Christ, today I want to pose a question that has pondered theologians for centuries: Did the Son of God, Jesus Christ our Lord, have a beginning? We all know from Scripture that Jesus walked among us, that He is the Word made flesh (John 1:14). But when we delve into the mystery of the God, we grapple with passages that hint at Jesus' pre-incarnate existence (Colossians 1:15-17). What do you all make of this?

Colossians 1:15, "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature,"
Colossians 1:16, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"
Colossians 1:17, "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

Perhaps some of you have come across teachings that explore Jesus' eternal nature. Maybe others have questions about how this aligns with God the Father being the one and only God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

I believe this is a topic approached best with humility and a teachable spirit. Let's open the floor to respectful discussion, using scripture as our guide, and ultimately glorifying God through our pursuit of understanding His holy nature.

Jesus is fully God and also fully Man, so he eternally existed before the Incarnation as Deity, and when was conceived in Mary, assumed sinless human nature and flesh, so as Deity always has existed, as Human came into exiting while conceived in Mary womb

 

[locust]

Jesus is fully God and also fully Man, so he eternally existed before the Incarnation as Deity, and when was conceived in Mary, assumed sinless human nature and flesh, so as Deity always has existed, as Human came into exiting while conceived in Mary womb

if Jesus was fully God why ,why would he pray to a higher God

 

[Exeter]

if Jesus was fully God why ,why would he pray to a higher God

Because He was God Incarnate, and thus the Son of God on Earth, with His Father, God Invisible being in Heaven. There is a lot of communication between then according to the Bible.

Here are several key scriptures that reference communication between God Incarnate on Earth (Jesus Christ) and God Invisible in Heaven, revealing a profound theological dialogue within the Trinity:

---

Direct Communication Between Jesus and the Father

• John 11:41–42
  
  

  “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. I knew that You always hear Me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here…”
  Jesus speaks aloud to the Father before raising Lazarus, demonstrating both intimacy and intentional public witness.

• John 17 (The High Priestly Prayer)
  This entire chapter is a direct prayer from Jesus to the Father, expressing unity, mission, and intercession for His disciples and future believers.
• Matthew 26:39
  
  

  “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from Me. Yet not as I will, but as You will.”
  In Gethsemane, Jesus communicates His anguish and submission to the Father’s will.

---

Jesus Revealing the Invisible God​

• John 1:18
  
  

  “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made Him known.”
  This verse affirms that Jesus, though incarnate, reveals the unseen God.

• Colossians 1:15
  
  

  “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”
  Jesus is portrayed as the visible manifestation of the invisible divine.

• John 5:19
  
  

  “The Son can do nothing by Himself; He can do only what He sees His Father doing…”
  This shows a continuous, perceptive communication between Jesus and the Father.

---

Testimony and Voice from Heaven​

• Matthew 3:17 (Baptism of Jesus)
  
  

  “And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is My Son, whom I love; with Him I am well pleased.’”
  The Father audibly affirms Jesus from heaven.

• John 12:28–30
  
  

  “‘Father, glorify Your name!’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’”
  The crowd hears the Father respond audibly to Jesus.

---

Theological Reflections on the Invisible God​

• Romans 1:20
  
  

  “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—His eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen…”
  Though invisible, God communicates through creation and is made known through Christ.

• 1 Timothy 1:17
  
  

  “Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever.”
  This doxology praises the unseen nature of God, whom Jesus reveals.

---

If you’re weaving this into a symbolic or allegorical framework, the interplay between visibility and invisibility, speech and silence, and submission and sovereignty offers rich terrain.

 

[locust]

Because He was God Incarnate, and thus the Son of God on Earth, with His Father, God Invisible being in Heaven. There is a lot of communication between then according to the Bible.

Here are several key scriptures that reference communication between God Incarnate on Earth (Jesus Christ) and God Invisible in Heaven, revealing a profound theological dialogue within the Trinity:

---

Direct Communication Between Jesus and the Father

• John 11:41–42
  
  
• John 17 (The High Priestly Prayer)
  This entire chapter is a direct prayer from Jesus to the Father, expressing unity, mission, and intercession for His disciples and future believers.
• Matthew 26:39
  

---

Jesus Revealing the Invisible God​

• John 1:18
  
  
• Colossians 1:15
  
  
• John 5:19
  

---

Testimony and Voice from Heaven​

• Matthew 3:17 (Baptism of Jesus)
  
  
• John 12:28–30
  

---

Theological Reflections on the Invisible God​

• Romans 1:20
  
  
• 1 Timothy 1:17
  

---

If you’re weaving this into a symbolic or allegorical framework, the interplay between visibility and invisibility, speech and silence, and submission and sovereignty offers rich terrain.

can ya show scripture that says he was God Incarnate ?

 

[Randy]

if Jesus was fully God why ,why would he pray to a higher God

He's not the Father who He calls the only true God.

In the context of oneness that is He and the Father are One He is God but the Deity in Him was not His spirit but the Fathers. The Fathers works He performed testify that He and the Father are one. The Spirit of the Father acted on Jesus's point of will as if He were the Father Himself. Mighty God.

The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

The spirit of the firstborn from the beginning of creation in human flesh, the Son of Man, had to learn to rely on God as a man. At His baptism the Spirit of the Father came down and remained on Him. He was clothed with power outward and inward the Deity of the Father dwells/lives. He was loaded to all the fullness of God for the work the Father assigned to Him. Inward He had a Library at His deposal of all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. The living Father. And Outward He was clothed with all the power of the living God. The Father

During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

[locust]

In the context of oneness

oneness ?

 

[JesusFan]

if Jesus was fully God why ,why would he pray to a higher God

Talking to His Father who was still in heaven, as both are God

 

[Randy]

oneness ?

Jesus-If you've seen me, you have seen the Father.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus-If you've seen me, you have seen the Father.

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus was and is not the Father, but both are equally God

 

[locust]

Jesus was and is not the Father, but both are equally God

equally God ? how can they be equal if Jesus answers to his God? if they are equal then they have to confer with each other when a decision is to be made. then they have to agree.

 

[Randy]

Jesus was and is not the Father, but both are equally God

Jesus is all that the Father is as in Him all the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell.
But His own God and Father is greater than Him. In fact, He stated that. Do you believe what the Son states is not always true? I believe He uses truth. He calls the Father the only true God

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

The Father has placed all things in Jesus's hands so that only in respect to His own throne is His authority greater.

The Father does whatever He is pleased to do.

The Son does whatever He is pleased to do so long as it abides within the framework of the Fathers will.
He will remain at the Fathers side until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. He will raise us all up on the last day as this is His Fathers will.

 

[JesusFan]

Jesus is all that the Father is as in Him all the fullness of the Fathers Deity was pleased to dwell.
But His own God and Father is greater than Him. In fact, He stated that. Do you believe what the Son states is not always true? I believe He uses truth. He calls the Father the only true God

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

The Father has placed all things in Jesus's hands so that only in respect to His own throne is His authority greater.

The Father does whatever He is pleased to do.

The Son does whatever He is pleased to do so long as it abides within the framework of the Fathers will.
He will remain at the Fathers side until His enemies are made a footstool for His feet. He will raise us all up on the last day as this is His Fathers will.

Both of them are equally God

 

[Free]

No it is not and I know different.

You believe differently, but you do not know differently. If the Father had a beginning, it necessarily is by another being. To say he caused his own existence is as irrational as scientific naturalists claiming the universe came into being on its own. It's a logical impossibility, that also contradicts Scripture.

Thats just your opinion.

An opinion based on Scripture and sound reasoning.

God is Spirit. We don't know where spirit originates, but we can look up and know what we see was made by Him.

Of course, but God did no originate.

However old you think the visible universe is the invisible Father is older.

Yes, that goes without saying.

Maybe but I don't know that He always existed as He never states so. I know He's unbegotten.

It's basic reasoning. If he created all that exists, including space and time, then he cannot not have ever existed. This is why he is a necessary being--all else is contingent on his existence; he necessarily has always existed.

Since He is God and not because of your reasoning this is useless reasoning.

If my reasoning is "useless," prove it. Your saying so doesn't make it so.

I'm not a Mormon

I never said you were.

and unlike Jesus the Father has no Father or God.

Of course he doesn't. And that means that he has always existed. It cannot be otherwise.

Thats not implied by His words. "No God WAS FORMED" before me as opposed to NO God was before me.
So it suggests He doesn't share your God with no beginning theology.

"Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me." All the gods of the nations are man-made, they are formed. The entire point is that there has never been another god and there will never be another god, other than Yahweh. It absolutely does not imply that God had a beginning. That is to completely ignore the context of the entirety of Scripture.

If you think the God of the Bible had a beginning, that he did not always exist, then he cannot be the God of the Bible and is a god of your own imagination. If God came into existence, then that would have been the beginning of space and time and he would have been the first created thing, created by himself no less, which is nonsense.

Thats your assumption as everything you read about Jesus shows He inherited and received from His GOD.
And the Father was living in Him. The Father has not received from any other being.

You have often repeated this, but it shows that you are still continuing to ignore passages such as John 1:1-3, 14, and Phil. 2:5-8. That, or you simply do not understand them. The Son has always been God, but became flesh, voluntarily.

For those of us who hold to the Father as the only true God His Spirit is not another distinct person from Himself. It can be seen as distinct from Jesus but never the other way around.

The problem for you is that the Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, among others.

We have the Spirit of Christ in us, and our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is also referred to as the Spirit of truth. The truth Jesus delivered He received from the Father.

Only believers have the Spirit of Christ in them, but one cannot be a believer if they don't have the God of the Bible.

God spoke to us by His Son.

Yes, I know.

Jesus asked the Father for this other advocate.

Yes, "this other advocate." You don't even know what you have said here. As I pointed out in the other thread, and you ignored, an advocate is necessarily a person; advocates cannot be non-persons. Jesus was the first advocate and the Holy Spirit was the second.

This person of the Spirit you believe in wasn't even involved in this sending because the Father sent His Spirit in Jesus's name.

The Spirit came, so how can he not be involved?

Where is this 3rd person noted in the Godhead, and in honor and glory by the host of heaven?

Matt. 28:19, for one. He is an advocate, for another. Perhaps you should actually address all that I posted in that other thread, HERE.

One God the Father FROM whom all things come and One Lord Jesus Christ THROUGH whom all things come.

Again, if "one God, the Father" precludes the Son from being God, then it necessarily follows that "one Lord, Jesus Christ" precludes the Father from ever being Lord. But we know that the Father is also called Lord.

Also again, if "from whom all things came" speaks of the Father's timeless, eternal nature, then it necessarily follows that "through whom all things came" speaks of the Son's timeless, eternal nature. It cannot be otherwise. If either the Father or the Son had a beginning, then that verse is self-contradictory and false.

Those are both based on basic logic and sound reasoning.

To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb.
Knowing the Father and Jesus whom He sent.
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

What is your point with these statements? Are you trying to somehow show that the Holy Spirit isn't also a person by ignoring a host of other verses and passages and posting only those which appear to support your position? That's not good biblical exegesis.

The Spirit bears witness from the mind of the Spirit.

They shall all be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

The Father states He is the God of the Son

Where?

and the Son states My Father and My God.

And Thomas states Jesus is his Lord and his God. The Father also implies the Son is Yahweh in Heb. 1:10-12. Your position is going to remain contradictory as long as you ignore those passages which don't fit your position.

The Father is clearly seen as greater by the Son. The Son is begotten, the Father is unbegotten.

Again, you continually fail to take into account that the Son is God incarnate.