Did we live as spirits before the earth was created?

[Mike]

Well, then it's settled. 2000 years of misinterpreting the Bible finally put to rest. Whew! We were waiting for you to come along! Where were you when the Books were written? You could have set us straight by re-writing the original text to begin with!

Instead, we have to deal with the Word as we have it and go on thinking Jesus "always was" and our spirits were created when we were conceived.

It's funny, because when I google "When our spirits were created", all I get are LDS and JW sites. Why do you two suppose that would be?

Hi Mike,
You don't need to be confused.

I was only confused in that, while you claim that you came to this these "truths" of yours independent of a particular church's teachings, only JW's and LDS appear to hold these in common with you. This is still puzzling.

In Romans, Paul says the the Spirit of God witness directly to our spirit the things of God. If you can obtain the witness directly from God then you can discern the truth from error. In fact, you don't need to rely an anyone's interpretation or tradition.

Good point. I suppose someone within Christians aught to have actually read the Bible. Mamre, Christians have read the Bible in great depth, believe it or not. We have also sought discernment, prayed on what we have read in earnest and still have come to see clearly that there has never been a time that Jesus was not, and that we did not exist as spirits prior to being conceived.

The world have been interpreting the Bible for centuries after they killed the Apostles, which were the one's chosen to guide the church. After they were killed, the plain truths of the Gospel have either been lost or just mixed up with human interpretation.

Who were these people that killed the apostles? They were people who rejected that Jesus was in fact God and saw them as a threat to their power. Their detractors weren't claiming to be Christians, so you can't compare their martyrdom to yourself in this "truth" that is rejected by Christianity. They certainly never made the claims that you, the JW's and the Mormons do.

Just look around you and you see thousands of denominations, each of them have their own interpretation of the bible.

And yet, none of the Christian denominations would agree with the claims that you have made. Are you saying none of them have read the Bible and prayed fervently over it? None of them have been as honest in their prayer as you, the JW's and Mormons have been?

 

[mamre]

I was only confused in that, while you claim that you came to this these "truths" of yours independent of a particular church's teachings, only JW's and LDS appear to hold these in common with you. This is still puzzling.

Mike,
It should not be puzzling to you. What I am trying to point out to you is that no one has the monopoly on the truth, not matter how ancient the doctrine may be. The source and owner of all truth is the Father, the Most High God, not some ancient group of religious people. Since He is the creator of this world (through Jesus Christ), then we can find His truth everywhere we look even in different denominations. And if you go to Him, He can show you which church is His Son's true church and doctrine.

Consider this:
As Satan seeks to prevent God's children to find their way back to the Father, he has mixed the truths of God with half-truths and lies. He is very cunning, therefore, many times the truth is hidden in plain sight that we can only discern it through the Holy Ghost. That is, by the Spirit of God witnessing it directly to the spirit of man. That way there is no intermediary. That way nobody can manipulate the answer, because God has spoken directly to your spirit. That is an answer from Father to son/daughter. Satan can't get in between. So you know the truth and you cannot deny it.

That is the divine method of helping us know the truth to go back to Him. There is no error when God speaks directly to you. Jesus pointed that to Peter and the Apostle early on:

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." Matt. 16: 17 (emphasis added)

Peter then knew with ALL surety who Jesus was, there was no doubt in Him because it was not flesh of blood that told Him that Jesus is the Son of God. Any intellectual or emotional, or what have you interpretation of the word of God comes from flesh and blood and as such are susceptible of doubts and manipulation by Satan's agents. That is why we need the DIRECT witness from God when we study and ponder the scriptures, as HE is the ONE that gave that scripture in the first place. It makes sense that if it is His word, then we need to check and see if what we believe is what He truly said.

So, when I say you should not be confused, I am telling you that if you use the method prescribed by Jesus to know the truth, you will be invariably led to the true church of Jesus Christ and will not need to trust other people's interpretation of the scriptures, be those interpretation orthodox, traditional, mainstream, accepted by the majority or what have you. The truly honest truth seeker will recognize that his/her own beliefs may have some things that need to be corrected and shed. In other words the truth start to "make him/her free" from sectarianism.

Paul said that: "...let God be true, but every man liar;" Rom. 3: 4
So, it stands to reason that if every man is liar, then when we read the scriptures and we interpret it according to our own understanding (or other's), then we don't have the truth. In other words, it is not the "Father which is in heaven revealing it to us," it is "blood and flesh" interpretation, no matter how ancient that interpretation may be.

Now, what really puzzles me is that if people believe that God is the source of truth, why people don't go directly to Him to find His true church? Why people prefer to rely on other people for interpretation of what God Himself has written?

When you read the scriptures and interpret yourself, it is like someone else reading a letter that your mother sent you and telling you what they think your mother wanted you to know.

The Bible is the "letter" from your Father which is in Heaven. Anyone, and according to Paul, anyone that interprets it, is telling us what they think God is trying to tell us. Even if you, yourself read it to yourself it would be like someone else telling you what God is trying to tell you. You need to read with the spirit with which it was written. In other words you need to read God's "letter" to you and ask Him for a witness of what you read, so you know with assurance you (blood and flesh) are not telling yourself lies.

mamre

 

[Elijah674]

Hi I just posted this elsewhere among the 'Living Souls', see if this fits here? If not just by/pass it!

AtoZ, on 31 May 2010 - 01:59 AM, said:

That's good Elijah674


22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. [end quote]


Me here:
When God (United Godhead) stated that He has Immortality (not his creation 1 Tim. 1:17 + 1 Tim. 6:16) and in Gen. 3:22 + Gen. 11:7 includes US in the plural who man was made in only the Image of, yet subject to death as God stated in Gen. 2:16-17. It is then that one WILL BELIEVE GOD & not teach that satan told the truth, [IF] they will? It is a free/choice! See Gen. 4:6-7.

Inspiration (invisable God in Their UNITY) has it stated this way: 'And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, [and BREATHED INTO HIS NOSTRILES THE BREATH OF LIFE]; [and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL].' Gen. 2:7
OK: Was man Immortal? God says that only They have Immortality. And that means the IMMORTALITY has ETERNALLY BEEN, not created! Again, God Jehovah, Holy [Spirit or Holy Ghost] & the Eternal God Christ. (just not the Son as of yet except in the Eternal Plan)

Now: Where was this created man (or angels) in the Godheads Eternity? Could he see hear or was he living as immortal? And when one dies we are told that our thoughts perish +! (Eccl. 9:4-6) Hardly, huh! Immortality goes into all ETERNAL Directions! SO: Back to can a 'SOUL DIE'. God DOCUMENTED in the Gen. 2:7th verse that [MAN BECAME] A LIVING SOUL!! That should be enough for Their creation to Believe Them & UNDERSTAND that they have been teaching lies for well past the 120 years of their satan's lies of Gen. 3:4.

Yet, there is much more on down the line of Inspiration. Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20 [DOCUMENTS] that the [SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE]!! (Twice!) And even the brain dead creation of the Godhead are a [LIVING SOUL]. We read in Rev. 16:3 'that every [living soul] died in the sea.' 'All have ONE BREATH; so man [HATH NO PREEMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST]. .. ALL GO INTO ONE PLACE..]' Eccl. 3:19

Sure, TWO RESURECTIONS! Sure Two JUDGEMENTS! Eccl. 12:13-14 & then Conditional Immortality of still eating of the Tree of Life as seen in Rev. 22:1-2 for the SAVED from there on of Nahum 1:9's FACT! + this fact also of the others from Eternity on in Obadiah 1:16

--Elijah

 

[crusaderbard]

"I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself" ~Isaiah 44:24 (NIV)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." ~John 1:1-3 (NIV)

If all things were made, then Angels, souls, and everything EXCEPT God were made. They had a beginning.

"This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him" ~Zechariah 12:1 (NIV)

Form in this verse refers to creation.

 

[mamre]

"I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself" ~Isaiah 44:24 (NIV)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." ~John 1:1-3 (NIV)

If all things were made, then Angels, souls, and everything EXCEPT God were made. They had a beginning.

"This is the word of the LORD concerning Israel. The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him" ~Zechariah 12:1 (NIV)

Form in this verse refers to creation.

crusaderbard,

Nevertheless, see what God Himself says in Isaiah:

" ...before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." Isa. 43: 10
(emphasis added)

By using the word "formed" God Himself implies that He was formed. Notice also the word God is capitalized to indicate there is no other God like Him formed.

Also in Hebrews, Paul talks about the Son of God this way:

"And again, when he bringeth in the first begotten into the world...".
(emphasis added)

The above assertion by the apostle indicates that His Son was begotten, therefore, He was formed.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Col. 1: 15
(emphasis added)

In Colossians, Paul says that God the Son is the "first born" of every creature. First born means that, of 'every creature,' He is the first. (I am not interpreting, just quoting the scripture).

If we hold that the scriptures you quoted are the only true basis for the subject, it will be the equivalent of saying that the ones I quoted are incorrect (again, I am not interpreting them, just quoting). If that is the case then it would be to imply that the Bible contradicts itself.

Since the scriptures coming from the mouth of God cannot contradict themselves, the only conclusion we come to is that the interpretation you subscribe to (that God the Son was not formed) is, somehow, not agreeing with the scriptures.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Mike]

In Colossians, Paul says that God the Son is the "first born" of every creature. First born means that, of 'every creature,' He is the first. (I am not interpreting, just quoting the scripture).

You are interpreting... with error

If we hold that the scriptures you quoted are the only true basis for the subject, it will be the equivalent of saying that the ones I quoted are incorrect (again, I am not interpreting them, just quoting). If that is the case then it would be to imply that the Bible contradicts itself.

So, now you have someone new to rehash the same flawed interpretation, using the same scriptures to come to wrong conclusions. The term "Firstborn" is such a stumbling block for you, mamre Christianity has never held that Jesus was created.

crusaderbard, you're spot on!

 

[mamre]

You are interpreting... with error

Mike,

Just read the verse, man!

If you tell me that first born is not first born, then I have only your word for it (not God's). And your word is not agreeing with what I am reading in the Bible.

First born cannot be translated into anything else. Someone that is first born is one that was born ahead of everybody else, first.

For example: I am the oldest of my dad's children. I was born first, I am my dad's first born.


You have tried "preeminent," but preeminent is not a synonym for it. However, if you replace 'first born' with 'preeminent' it renders "the preeminent of every creatures," which doesn't change the fact that God the Son was begotten by the Father of Spirits first. No amount of scholars can refute that. They can interpret and offer their opinion, but it is their opinion versus God's word in the scriptures.

Why do we call the Most High, the Father? Because He has begotten us, His sons and daughters. And Jesus is the first of His sons and daughters. It is simple, why do you complicate it?

The scriptures say that He existed as the Son of God before this earth. Therefore, If God the Father would not have begotten Jesus before this earth, it would not make any sense at all for the scriptures to call Him Son of God before the foundation of the world.

There is no interpretation. As anyone can see I am completely comfortable with it (no struggling), as it is plain and clear. I am just quoting what Paul says:

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:" Col. 1: 15

It speaks for itself. It cannot be clearer than that, Mike!

It seems you are insisting that I, and everybody else, take your word for it and forget what we have read in the scriptures.

mamre