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Do you believe in predestination ?

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That Faith in Christ is a blessing of Gods predestination is seen when we consider this blessed promise Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is a promise that the Just shall live by Faith This statement is in future indicative , indicating that something will certainly occur in the future. Now what makes it certain ? Gods predestination. Remember some had been predestinated to the adoption of children/sons which is manifested by Faith in Christ !
 
You could be straining at gnats. I suppose I was speaking rather loosely but scripture does say,

Proverbs 4:7
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.../

And there's always,

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

Isn't that sort of plain and simple. We have a choice, we have freewill.
I cannot see where you find "freewill" producing faith in Christ in that verse, in context. The flow of thought must be included as it goes through the entire chapter.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live, thou and thy seed; to love Jehovah thy God, to obey his voice, and to cleave unto him; for he is thy life, and the length of thy days; that thou mayest dwell in the land which Jehovah sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." (Deut 30:19-20, ASV)

Can the father believe on the behalf of his child (thy seed) for salvation?

If you check your concordance you'll find this topic about living in the promise land, and the blessing and the curse beginning here:

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if ye shall hearken unto the commandments of Jehovah your God, which I command you this day; and the curse, if ye shall not hearken unto the commandments of Jehovah your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known." (Deut 11:26-28, ASV)
 
For Hs own Glory.
What glory would there be to God in the preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on, which would have not been needed since God already predestined or elected all those who would be His own before the foundation of the world. Why would God even bother to send Christ to die for others if they are already His own. These theories make no sense in the purpose of God's plan of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

I know Calvinist do not believe in free will, but it's taught all through the scriptures.
 
You could be straining at gnats. I suppose I was speaking rather loosely but scripture does say,

Proverbs 4:7
7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.../

And there's always,

Deuteronomy 30:19
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:.../

Isn't that sort of plain and simple. We have a choice, we have freewill.
Even Joshua made a freewill choice as saying "as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
 
That Faith in Christ is a blessing of Gods predestination is seen when we consider this blessed promise Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

This is a promise that the Just shall live by Faith This statement is in future indicative , indicating that something will certainly occur in the future. Now what makes it certain ? Gods predestination. Remember some had been predestinated to the adoption of children/sons which is manifested by Faith in Christ !
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Kind of blows the whole Calvinism predestination theory right out of the water.
 
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Kind of blows the whole Calvinism predestination theory right out of the water.
Those are statements of fact, NOT of man having a freewill in his natural sinful state. It is clear the how the believer had the will to believe:

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13, KJV)

I do not think a dead man has any freewill:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:4-5, NRSV)
 
Even Joshua made a freewill choice as saying "as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
You are taking words out of context again if you are trying to apply that to eternal salvation. These are words about obedience to keeping the covenant and remaining in the promised land. They did not obey so the lost it.
 
Those are statements of fact, NOT of man having a freewill in his natural sinful state. It is clear the how the believer had the will to believe:

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phil 2:13, KJV)

I do not think a dead man has any freewill:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—" (Eph 2:4-5, NRSV)
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

How
does one accept Christ as Lord and Savior if they have never heard of Him. No predestination, but only accepting by confession of faith as faith comes by hearing the word being preached.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Why do we need to obey His commands or to work out our own salvation if we are already His own before the foundation of the world? No predestination?


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

We have to be Spiritually born again from above in order to enter the kingdom of God. No predestination.

What God predestined before the foundation of the world was that we should be holy and blameless before Him. God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world was Christ Jesus in whom we now have redemption through by God's free gift of grace through faith. Faith comes by hearing the word. None of us existed before the foundation of the world, but God did create us to be holy and blameless before Him, but we see that all have sinned and fallen short of His glory. God's plan was Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world that through His death and resurrection we have redemption through the blood of Christ.

There is no predestination found in any of the below verses, but God only knows His own by the condition of the heart.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
You are taking words out of context again if you are trying to apply that to eternal salvation. These are words about obedience to keeping the covenant and remaining in the promised land. They did not obey so the lost it.
Joshua 24:15 as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Nothing is taken out of these words Joshua spoke as he made his own individual choice to serve the Lord. Why would there need to be any covenant at all since you say God already predestined who would be His.

Calvinist love to make scripture line up with their theology, but it never does. God's word never changes, but man sure does try to change it.
 
Agreed. Determinism doesn't account well for the existence of Satan, IMO. It in effect creates a monstrous God, who determined not only to bring saving grace to some, but to instill in one of His angels a hatred towards mankind that is beyond what we can imagine; a being who daily enjoys watching his servants murder children and sacrifice human beings on his altars, and subjects some to the worse types of tortures, not only here but in Hell; a ruler who orders his demons to incite men, women and children every day across this planet to commit suicide, so badly filled with grief as to take their own lives.

Certainly no offense to Eddie or anyone else who thinks this is what scripture teaches, but it is a truly grievous theology to me, and completely unreconcilable with my worldview and my knowledge of what God is like, and what His true heart is towards man.
Yes, very well put. Why would God say, "OK George I decided to predestine you to be my own beloved before the foundation of the world, but hey Harry, I decide to predestine you before the foundation of the world to cast you into the Lake of fire. Sorry you have no choice either one of you because I am God and I will do what I want."

God's doctrine has been before the foundation of the world and has never changed. Calvinism theology in which is being taught in here, is nothing more than Augustinian Calvinism that was first taught in 412 AD. Are we going to believe God and His word, or Augustinian Hippo's doctrine.
 
I prefer to let the Holy Spirit inspired words of God do their work as the Spirit illuminates it for the believer. I'll not post more on this because the Holy scriptures are the last word.

Election: traditionally known as Predestination

For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on earth to be his people, his treasured possession. It was not because you were more numerous than any other people that the LORD set his heart on you and chose you—for you were the fewest of all peoples. It was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath that he swore to your ancestors, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. (Deut 7:6-8, NRSV)

Know, then, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to occupy because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people. (Deut 9:6, NRSV)

Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and anyone who comes to me I will never drive away; (John 6:37, NRSV)

Since you have given him authority over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. (John 17:2, NRSV)

When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers. (Acts 13:48, NRSV)

Even before they had been born or had done anything good or bad (so that God’s purpose of election might continue, not by works but by his call) she was told, “The elder shall serve the younger.” ...So then he has mercy on whomever he chooses, and he hardens the heart of whomever he chooses. (Rom 9:11-12, 18, NRSV)

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath that are made for destruction; and what if he has done so in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— including us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Rom 9:22-24, NRSV)

So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace...That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. (Rom 11:5-6, 20 NRSV)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. (Eph 1:3-6, NRSV)

We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe. (2Thess 2:13, REB)

Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (2Tim 1:9, NRSV)

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance. (1Pet 1:1-2, NRSV)

All who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. (Rev 13:8, RSV)
and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (Rev 13:8, ESV)

I'll leave it to the Spirit guided common sense of the reader to decide for himself.
 
I cannot see where you find "freewill" producing faith in Christ in that verse, in context

The fact of the matter is that Faith is a choice too. We choose to trust Him no matter how outrageous the stories in scripture are. It take a conscious willful decision on our part.

The good part of that is, when we trust him, that is an act of faith and that is what He responds to. Peter did get out of the boat before He walked on water. Then after he took his eyes off of Jesus, he started sinking in the water and cried out (asked), Save me Lord. So He did save him.
 
What glory would there be to God in the preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on, which would have not been needed since God already predestined or elected all those who would be His own before the foundation of the world. Why would God even bother to send Christ to die for others if they are already His own. These theories make no sense in the purpose of God's plan of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.

I know Calvinist do not believe in free will, but it's taught all through the scriptures.
What Glory ? Are you kidding me right now ? Gods Glory !
 
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Kind of blows the whole Calvinism predestination theory right out of the water.
The just shall live by Faith. When God or His word states something shall be, its because God predestined it to be so.
 
What Glory ? Are you kidding me right now ? Gods Glory !
Wow, you totally misunderstood what I said.

So it was God's glory in sending His Son Christ Jesus to literally be beaten and then die on the cross needlessly, for after all by what you say, God already elected those who would be His own and who He would send to the lake of fire even before they were born.

This is what I said please read it carefully:

What glory would there be to God in the preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on, which would have not been needed since God already predestined or elected all those who would be His own before the foundation of the world. Why would God even bother to send Christ to die for others if they are already His own. These theories make no sense in the purpose of God's plan of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
 
The just shall live by Faith. When God or His word states something shall be, its because God predestined it to be so.
Of course the just will live by faith in obedience to His word. If they do not then they are none of His own. But, where does faith come from, Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Augustine of Hippo, in which Calvinism came from in their beliefs, believed God's predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of every individuals merits, whether in this current life or a previous life. Prior to 396AD Augustine believed that predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of whether individuals would believe that God's grace was a reward for human assent.

Below is what is already written in the word of God about predestination.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).


Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).


God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​
 
Not only were they predestinated to Faith, but predestinated to be saved, They were saved already in the purpose of God before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us,
and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Eph 2:8-9

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
Wow, you totally misunderstood what I said.

So it was God's glory in sending His Son Christ Jesus to literally be beaten and then die on the cross needlessly, for after all by what you say, God already elected those who would be His own and who He would send to the lake of fire even before they were born.

This is what I said please read it carefully:

What glory would there be to God in the preaching of the Gospel, Faith, the Cross and so on, which would have not been needed since God already predestined or elected all those who would be His own before the foundation of the world. Why would God even bother to send Christ to die for others if they are already His own. These theories make no sense in the purpose of God's plan of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world.
Everything about Salvation is to Gods Glory. The preaching, te believing, all of it
 
Of course the just will live by faith in obedience to His word. If they do not then they are none of His own. But, where does faith come from, Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Augustine of Hippo, in which Calvinism came from in their beliefs, believed God's predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of every individuals merits, whether in this current life or a previous life. Prior to 396AD Augustine believed that predestination was based on God's foreknowledge of whether individuals would believe that God's grace was a reward for human assent.

Below is what is already written in the word of God about predestination.

God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.

The Bible reveals that regarding free-will and predestination it is not one or the other, but rather both. That is, the Bible teaches both the free-will of man and God's election or predestination. Unfortunately the teachings and creeds of men have misdefined these Biblical concepts so that the impression is left that one cannot have both, but only one or the other. We must accept the whole counsel of God on this subject instead of the wisdom of men (Gal. 1:6-10; 1 Cor. 1:18-21).


Many people teach that man either has no free-will (fatalism) or limited amounts of it. The Bible teaches that every person with a moral capacity has the freedom of will to decide whether or not to obey God. Simply put, the Bible teaches that God elected (predestined or set in place) to save every soul who fears (respects) God and works righteousness, (Acts 10:34-35). That is, before time eternal, God predestined that men would be saved "in Christ" (Eph. 1:3-4, 7-12). God predestined the "plan" of human redemption (Eph. 3:10-11).


God also determined that man would have free-will, the ability and responsibility to choose to obey Him (cf. Gen. 3:1-6; Josh. 24:15; Matt. 11:28). God did not predestine the man (which individuals would be saved & lost), He predestined the plan (how men would be saved) - read again Acts 10:34-35; Eph. 1:3-12; Rom. 8:28-30; 10:9-17.​
All was predestinated.
 
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