Jethro Bodine
Member
No, lol!
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Do you haft to be baptized?
- Thread starter EricTheBaptist
- Start date
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Asyncritus
Guest
Now here's another odd thing.
A Sikh gentleman, who is a very good friend of mine, said much the same thing, the only difference being that he said he had to repeat a mantra of some sort (I think it was the name of his god), and the same thing happened.
So I guess where I'm getting to, is: how do I know who's right, and who's wrong?
Does the 'burning feeling' qualify as the HSp presence, or not? And how do you know the difference?
A Sikh gentleman, who is a very good friend of mine, said much the same thing, the only difference being that he said he had to repeat a mantra of some sort (I think it was the name of his god), and the same thing happened.
So I guess where I'm getting to, is: how do I know who's right, and who's wrong?
Does the 'burning feeling' qualify as the HSp presence, or not? And how do you know the difference?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Why are you even wondering if a pagan's experience is right??????
Why are you wondering if a pagan's burning feeling is the Holy Spirit???????
From the witness of the Spirit Himself.
Your resistance to the 'Holy Spirit and fire' Jesus spoke about reminds me of how Christians will resist 'love your neighbor as yourself' as a legitimate measure of God in your life because unbelievers love, too.
You know pagans have God things like joy, too, so I suppose we can resist that also as a sign of God's presence in your life...right?
What you're missing is the witness of the Spirit I've been talking about. That is what I said confirmed my acceptance as a son before I was water baptized, not the manifestation of the Spirit. I made this clear to you. I have an interesting scripture for you that I will share later (I'm at work right now.)
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Among those who claim to be Christians it is not infrequent that they make such claims of revelations and guidance of the Holy Spirit apart from the written word of God and their claims are so vastly different. This alone proves a subjective rather than objective approach. The Holy Spirit does not tell one man one thing and another man another etc. and the messages, revelations, guidances etc. being so diametricalliy DIFFERENT.
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Asyncritus
Guest
Jethro
To the best of my knowledge, and I am certain there's a lot more that I know not of, these are the churches that claim possession of the HSp, either their membership, or the ruling committees/ bodies:
1 Catholics
2 Anglicans
3 Evangelicals
4 Jehovah's Witnesses
5 Seventh Day Adventists
6 Pentecostals
7 Methodists
8 Lutherans
Now given the VAST doctrinal differences between the various groups, who am I to believe is speaking the truth?
What guidance can you offer me if I was thinking about joining one of them? (I'm not, but...?)
To the best of my knowledge, and I am certain there's a lot more that I know not of, these are the churches that claim possession of the HSp, either their membership, or the ruling committees/ bodies:
1 Catholics
2 Anglicans
3 Evangelicals
4 Jehovah's Witnesses
5 Seventh Day Adventists
6 Pentecostals
7 Methodists
8 Lutherans
Now given the VAST doctrinal differences between the various groups, who am I to believe is speaking the truth?
What guidance can you offer me if I was thinking about joining one of them? (I'm not, but...?)
Stormcrow
Member
Water baptism was a baptism of repentance, not salvation. You can read my views on it in the following links discussing this very thing (all on this website):
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39473&p=599330&viewfull=1#post599330
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39473&p=599335&viewfull=1#post599335
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39473&p=599336&viewfull=1#post599336
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=39473&p=599338&viewfull=1#post599338
Jethro Bodine
Member
You need to stop deciding who has the Holy Spirit and who does not. Your responsibility is to know that you have the Spirit and are walking in obedience to that Spirit. It causes nothing but strife to go around deciding who and what groups have the Holy Spirit and who does not, and how it should or shouldn't be manifesting in a person's life. You do not have to be with anybody that doesn't satisfy your personal doctrinal beliefs about the matter. God has given everybody the liberty to go wherever they want in regard to the truth. They have their own accountability to God. I don't know what it is about us humans that we can't stand to let someone believe different than us and are so bound and determined to tear them down!
You have your own relationship with God to take care of. I highly recommend you not focus on denominations. Pick a body and it's leadership to fellowship with individually. If you yourself have the Holy Spirit, as you learn and grow in your own relationship with God and the Holy Spirit, you'll be able to discern what people and groups are leading you into the will of God by the Holy Spirit, and which are not. Resist the temptation to go around publicly judging everybody's relationship with God and what they should or should not be doing and believing.
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Asyncritus
Guest
So truth doesn't matter.
Only my subjective feelings about where to go and which preacher to follow.
This leaves a rather large question.
Does scriptural truth matter at all?
If not, why did God bother to preserve it (the Bible) for us at the cost of so many lives?
If yes, what part does it/ should it play in the salvation process?
Only my subjective feelings about where to go and which preacher to follow.
This leaves a rather large question.
Does scriptural truth matter at all?
If not, why did God bother to preserve it (the Bible) for us at the cost of so many lives?
If yes, what part does it/ should it play in the salvation process?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Who is defending subjective feelings???? Everything I've shared is Biblical. I have not once endorsed an extra-Biblical experience or teaching.
The implication in all this is that the seeker of truth that is learning and growing in his faith is doing that through the scriptures. As we do that, our obligation is to keep ourselves in line and pick and choose who we will fellowship with, or not, according to what the Spirit teaches us. If you don't believe in the fire of the Holy Spirit taught in the Bible then so be it, but don't try to rob others of that Biblical truth. Fair enough?
Hi again Stormcrow. In kyour post #186 you wrote: WATER BAPTISM WAS A BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE, NOT SALVATION. YOU CAN READ MY VIEWS ON IT IN THE FOLLOWING LINKS DISCUSSING THIS VERY THING (ALL ON THIS WEBSITE):"
Actuallly, Jesus said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" Mk.16:16. Water baptism according to my Lord is definitely envolved with "SALVATION''.
Peter said: "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:38. Sounds like the inspired Peter understood water baptism to be connected to "SALVATION."
Since I shall be judged by the words of Jesus, I prefer HIS "links".
Actuallly, Jesus said: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" Mk.16:16. Water baptism according to my Lord is definitely envolved with "SALVATION''.
Peter said: "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" Acts 2:38. Sounds like the inspired Peter understood water baptism to be connected to "SALVATION."
Since I shall be judged by the words of Jesus, I prefer HIS "links".
Jethro Bodine
Member
I didn't follow his links, but I think what he's driving at is what I said in the beginning of this thread. Baptism means repentance. To tell someone to be baptized was to tell them to repent...the repentance being that which saves a person, not the legalism of the act of baptism. Baptism was understood as how one repented and was saved. But we know right from the Bible itself that one could certainly repent and be saved before their baptism.
Stormcrow
Member
Show me where the word "water" precedes the word "baptism" in any single verse you cited above.
Just one.
Then read this:
{11} "As for me, I [John] baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
Now, who's baptism was Peter preaching about in Acts: John's or Christ's???
Then you should read all of them.
Again, please indicate where the word "water" appears in Acts 2:38. In fact, if you read the rest of the verse (the part you left out), it's clear to which baptism Peter is referring:
{38} Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 (NASB)
The verse doesn't read "be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins!"
And what did John say of Christ's baptism again???
Water baptism means nothing with regards to salvation. Faith in the blood of Christ alone saves, not water.
The indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is the mark of one's salvation: not how wet they look coming out of the tub.
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Asyncritus
Guest
SC
This insistence of yours that Acts doesn't speak of WATER-baptism is a little short sighted.
We agree, don't we, that Christ is our example? Which means that we are supposed to do as He did as far as humanly possible?
Then what example does He set?
Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. [in Jordan? Yes...]
Mr 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness . Then he suffered him.
Thus = in this way [ie by being baptised in water]
Us = Me and my disciples
Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I understand that the Jordan was a river, and that it was full of water, not full of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, Christ our example, was baptized in water, THEN the HSp fell on Him.
Right? Right.
So when Peter commands the repentees in Acts 2 to BE BAPTIZED for the remission of their sins AND THEN they would receive the gift, don't you think he was simply following
a. Jesus' EXAMPLE - as shown above, and
b. Jesus' COMMAND - go into all nations...baptizing them in the Name...?
Notice, it was the disciples who were to do the baptizing. The disciples COULD NOT baptize with the Holy Spirit - only Jesus could do that:
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Since the disciples COULD NOT baptize with the Holy Spirit, then what were they supposed to baptize with?
Just so that we avoid any silly guesswork, here's what happened in Samaria:
Acts 8.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
But NO HOLY SPIRIT as yet!
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
So if no Holy Spirit as yet, then what did Philip baptize them with?
You got it in one: WATER.
Now can we stop this silly argument about no water?
This insistence of yours that Acts doesn't speak of WATER-baptism is a little short sighted.
We agree, don't we, that Christ is our example? Which means that we are supposed to do as He did as far as humanly possible?
Then what example does He set?
Mt 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
Mt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. [in Jordan? Yes...]
Mr 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness . Then he suffered him.
Thus = in this way [ie by being baptised in water]
Us = Me and my disciples
Mt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Now correct me if I'm wrong here, but I understand that the Jordan was a river, and that it was full of water, not full of the Holy Spirit.
Therefore, Christ our example, was baptized in water, THEN the HSp fell on Him.
Right? Right.
So when Peter commands the repentees in Acts 2 to BE BAPTIZED for the remission of their sins AND THEN they would receive the gift, don't you think he was simply following
a. Jesus' EXAMPLE - as shown above, and
b. Jesus' COMMAND - go into all nations...baptizing them in the Name...?
Notice, it was the disciples who were to do the baptizing. The disciples COULD NOT baptize with the Holy Spirit - only Jesus could do that:
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Since the disciples COULD NOT baptize with the Holy Spirit, then what were they supposed to baptize with?
Just so that we avoid any silly guesswork, here's what happened in Samaria:
Acts 8.12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
But NO HOLY SPIRIT as yet!
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
So if no Holy Spirit as yet, then what did Philip baptize them with?
You got it in one: WATER.
Now can we stop this silly argument about no water?
francisdesales
Member
That all sounds very good in today's society of relativism and "everyone's truth is true" double talk. Unfortunately, it is not a paradigm found anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere do we find such a subjective and individualistic search for truth found in the supposed relationship derived by your own feelings and initiative. Paul seems to be pretty CERTAIN that HIS gospel is truth and ANY OTHER is false. Check out Galatians 1. Thus, the truth expressed has been given to particular communities to safeguard - see the Pastorals. Belonging to a community of believers is the paradigm found in the Bible, both OT and NT. There just is not a "me and Jesus" concept that dispels the necessity of belonging to a visible Body of believers.
While it is not our "job" to determine the individual's eternal destiny, we are expected to search for truth found in the Temple of the Holy Spirit, the Church. There is no need to tear others down, but let's not go the other sappy extreme of "Barneyism", "I love you, you love me" garbage... One should point out fallacies when they are found.
The idea of being baptized into Christ is something that ordinarily is done through water and the spirit of God. Scriptures are clear on this.
Regards
francisdesales
Member
Excuse me, but doesn't "baptize" mean "to be immersed in water", according to the Greek meaning of the word???
Thus, being dunked in water would bring about the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You are changing the meaning of the word "baptize" to a metaphor-only term. The first century hearer of the New Testament writings would certainly make the connection between Peter's words and water baptism, understanding that something MORE would occur during the dunking.
Regards
Stormcrow
Member
baptiðzw
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
- to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
- to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
- to overwhelm
[/FONT]You can be immersed and overwhelmed by many things. It's clear that Christ's baptism is not a baptism of water, according to John the Baptist himself!
{11} "As for me, I [John] baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
So what is it you think I said that you say a Christian can't have? The witness of the Spirit that we are children of God, or that Jesus baptizes with fire?
You seem to be adding a lot more to what I'm actually saying here. All you need to do is show us that we can not have these two things that the Bible says we can, okay?
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Stormcrow
Member
Not my words, Peter's.
He gave us two commandments and told us to pick up His cross and follow Him. Virtually everything else is what people have built traditions of men around, water baptism being just one example.
So have you been baptized in the Jordan following Jesus' example??? If not, why not???
Yep. And as another member here noted once (and I agree with this view) it was so that Christ - who was King by descent from David - could also assume the title of High Priest, after the order of Melchizedek - so that He could rule both as King and High Priest. According to this member (and I can't recall where the post is), John's baptism conferred the title of High Priest onto Christ.
Unless, of course, you think it was done because Christ needed to repent of something or have His sins forgiven!
2Yeah, except it wasn't "Me and my disciples!" That's something you inferred from the text that isn't there! The "us" was referring to He and John - only the two of which were actually having the conversation you spent all this space reciting!
Proof of that is in the very next verse!
You see any mention of Christ's disciples being baptized in that verse???
Yep. So why weren't you baptized in it?
Yep! So why weren't you baptized in it???
Furthermore, how many of Christ's sins were "washed away" by the river Jordan??? Was Christ saved by this act of baptism???
Were you? Was anyone?????
Let's look at the verse again, shall we???
{38} Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:38 (NASB)
Hmmm...He wants them to repent. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance, but Peter doesn't tell them to be baptized in John's name, rather he tells them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that they would receive the Holy Spirit!
And who baptizes in the Holy Spirit??? Jesus Christ Himself - in whom all the fullness of the Godhead dwelt bodily!
He's telling them to be baptized by Christ's baptism, NOT JOHN'S!!!
The difference???
{8} "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Mark 1:8 (NASB)
There is not one single verse in the Bible that tells us Jesus Christ baptized anyone in water!!! So if we were really to follow the example of Christ regarding water baptism, we should find even just one instance of Christ baptizing in water.
There's not one.
Yep. Baptize them in the name of Christ, not John or water!
You don't need to be dunked to repent, and you don't need water to cleanse you from all unrighteousness: you need faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ and His blood!
To try to add anymore to the work Christ did on the cross to save you is not faith: it is works! And works cannot save a single soul!!!
{2} He [Paul] said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." {3} And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
{4} Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance [water], telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." {5} When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [NOT water!]
{6} And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. {7} There were in all about twelve men. Acts 19:2-7 (NASB)
Everything in this passage from Acts 19 puts to the lie everything you've written in this response to me!
Ask Paul when you see him.
Show me the water in this verse!
You keep ignoring the gospel message being preached and insist on looking for water to save these people! IT DOES NOT AND NEVER HAS!!!
Why don't we tell everybody the rest of the story that you left out???
{14} Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, {15} who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. {16} For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. {17} Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17 (NASB)
Kinda' puts to the lie the idea that these "disciples" weren't baptizing in the Holy Spirit, huh???
Still don't see water in that verse. I see baptism in the name of Jesus but that isn't John's baptism. You can't find water there because there is none.
I don't see an argument over what constitutes an alleged requirement for salvation as being silly. Speaks volumes that you do.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The suggestion is that we can not have the remission of sins until we are water baptized. But we have the example of Cornelius, confirmed in countless testimonies in the church, that this is simply not true. That doesn't mean we can ignore the command to be water baptized. It means park the dogmatic doctrines about when and where a person can only get the Holy Spirit in the circular file and put an end to the useless and meaningless division it causes in the body of Christ. There are much, much more important things to make sure the body of Christ devotes itself to. This doctrine of when and where a person gets the Holy Spirit is not one of them. It's an immature, over zealous, misguided doctrine in the church today.