Do you haft to be baptized?

[Stormcrow]

The suggestion is that we can not have the remission of sins until we are water baptized. But we have the example of Cornelius, confirmed in countless testimonies in the church, that this is simply not true. That doesn't mean we can ignore the command to be water baptized. It means park the dogmatic doctrines about when and where a person can only get the Holy Spirit in the circular file and put an end to the useless and meaningless division it causes in the body of Christ. There are much, much more important things to make sure the body of Christ devotes itself to. This doctrine of when and where a person gets the Holy Spirit is not one of them. It's an immature, over zealous, misguided doctrine in the church today.

Water baptism came after they were saved and had received the Holy Spirit: that's the testimony of Cornelius. This simply drives home the point I'm trying to make that water baptism is not required for salvation! It's not even required for being filled with the Holy Spirit!

If anyone wants to use water baptism as a "confession of faith" in Christ, I don't have any issue with that. But that's a whole different issue than people insisting that water baptism is required for salvation.

It is not and never has been.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Water baptism came after they were saved and had received the Holy Spirit: that's the testimony of Cornelius. This simply drives home the point I'm trying to make that water baptism is not required for salvation! It's not even required for being filled with the Holy Spirit!

If anyone wants to use water baptism as a "confession of faith" in Christ, I don't have any issue with that. But that's a whole different issue than people insisting that water baptism is required for salvation.

It is not and never has been.

To add...

We have to know why a person refuses to obey the command to be baptized to know whether they are lost in their disobedience. Baptism is not a legalistic on/off switch to salvation. As in all disobediences you have to know why a person is being disobedient to know whether that disobedience signifies unbelief or not. Disobedience condemns when it represents a deliberate rejection of the forgiveness of God.

I believe convincing a person who doesn't want to get baptized to get baptized because they think they will then be saved if they do that, is a faulty doctrine. Chances are you have the same unrepentant person now getting baptized who wouldn't before, but who is still unrepentant nevertheless, but who now thinks he has been saved by the act. When water baptism is an expression of true faith and a repentant heart and mind toward God, that is when water baptism is synonymous with repentance and a person is 'saved' through that baptism, figuratively speaking.

 

[Asyncritus]

baptiðzw

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]Where did you get this from? Try this:
[/FONT]Baptizo -- Strong's Greek Dictionary, 907[FONT=&quot][2][/FONT]

baptizw baptizo bap-tid'-zo​

from a derivative of 911;​

1. to immerse, submerge;​

2. to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:​

3. --Baptist, baptize, wash.
​

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]
So where does this 'overwhelm' business come from? Can you not see that it is pure nonsense?

Let's put 'overwhelm' in some of the passages where baptize is used.

Joh 1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelmest[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] thou <907> then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?

Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, I [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] <907> with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;

Joh 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] <907>.

Joh 1:31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ing <907> with water.

Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] <907> with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]eth <907> with the Holy Ghost.

Joh 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ed <907>.

Joh 3:23 And John also was[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ing <907> in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ed <907>.

Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]eth <907>, and all men come to him.

Joh 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ed <907> more disciples than John,

Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ed <907> not, but his disciples,)

Joh 10:40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]overwhelm[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]ed <907>; and there he abode.

Do you agree that 'overwhelm' makes nonsense of all these passages?
If it does, then the following is also nonsense:[/FONT]

you can be immersed and overwhelmed by many things. It's clear that Christ's baptism is not a baptism of water, according to John the Baptist himself!

"As for me, I [John] baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (NASB)

Peter has showed you before exactly what that means, but you still persist in this misinterpretation. Let me remind you in case you have forgotten, or as is more likely, never knew:

Acts 11.15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

"And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning."

What does that mean? Simple:

10.44 ¶ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

They were then baptized with water unto life.

11.18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

So baptism with the Holy Spirit meant being given the gift of the Spirit i.e. tongues, healing etc etc.

In case you still doubt this, please note that Jesus Himself baptised BEFORE the gifts of the Spirit were poured out:

Joh 3:26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth <907>, and all men come to him.

1 ¶ When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Note, NO HOLY SPIRIT until Pentecost.

What does that leave? You got it in one. WATER!!!!

 

[Webb]

Hello Stormcrow. On post 193 you wrote: "SHOW ME WHERE THE WORD 'WATER' PRECEDES THE WORD 'BAPTISM' IN ANY SINGLE VERSE YOU CITED ABOVE." (Refering to vss. Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38).

I shall in turn ask you: Show me where the words "Holy Spirit" precedes the word "baptism" in any single verse I cited above.

I am willing to meet you in the one-on-one forum on this subject of Holy Spirit vs water baptism. I am willing as well to meet you in the one-on-one forum on the subject of the woman's head covering of I Cor. 11. Either or both. I would look forward to a respectful, honorable yet rigorous study and discussion.

 

[francisdesales]

baptiðzw


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva]

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

[/FONT]

You can be immersed and overwhelmed by many things. It's clear that Christ's baptism is not a baptism of water, according to John the Baptist himself!

{11} "As for me, I [John] baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Matthew 3:11 (NASB)

Thank you for your response, but I'm afraid that this verse doesn't say what you think it does. John is not baptizing with the Holy Spirit. It doesn't follow that Christian baptism does NOT include water by the inclusion of this verse to the discussion. It merely says that Jesus' baptism will include something more. But it is STILL called "baptism", which everyone at the time would understand as an immersion in water.

And just as Naaman was dipped into the Jordan - and discovered it was not the water itself that cured, but God Himself, so the same with Christian water baptism. It is something more than just water, although that is the medium involved to present the physical symbol to our minds that ensures what took place in the spiritual world (forgiveness of sins) actually happened.

Don't you think it would be odd that after Philip spoke to the Enuch about Christianity, the Eunuch would then state "look, there's some water, let's do it", and Philip baptized him in the Spirit in the river.

This is the way Christianity has always understood baptism, until very recently.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So what is it you think I said that you say a Christian can't have? The witness of the Spirit that we are children of God, or that Jesus baptizes with fire?

You seem to be adding a lot more to what I'm actually saying here. All you need to do is show us that we can not have these two things that the Bible says we can, okay?

I didn't say that we cannot be baptized with fire or have the witness of the Spirit of God. I do find your inability to answer "how were you baptized by fire?" telling, however... I also am not impressed with the so-called "burning in the bosom". This is Jean Calvin's saying, and it was silly back then, as well. He stated this when asked "so how do you know what are the contents of the Bible without the Church to tell you". Needless to say, one is merely stating "because I myself said so and I am above the Church's decisions."

The Bible doesn't mention such a burning of the bosom, although it DOES consider the Church the pillar and foundation of the truth. We know we have the Spirit by our ACTIONS, not by feelings in the bosom easily manufactured. Atheists get the same feeling when they swindle someone out of their money...

Not to sound unkind or dismissive, but that "burning" is a feeling that can easily be manufactured emotionally by yourself. It can be "felt" by ANYONE, even non-Christians, as aptly pointed out. It proves nothing.

I am saying that baptism through water and the Spirit is the operative, normal, ordinary way for coming to Christ. You state that baptism by water was a mistake of Christianity for 1900 years...

:

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I didn't say that we cannot be baptized with fire or have the witness of the Spirit of God. I do find your inability to answer "how were you baptized by fire?" telling, however... I also am not impressed with the so-called "burning in the bosom". This is Jean Calvin's saying, and it was silly back then, as well. He stated this when asked "so how do you know what are the contents of the Bible without the Church to tell you". Needless to say, one is merely stating "because I myself said so and I am above the Church's decisions."

Well, since I made it clear that it was not the physical manifestation of the Spirit that confirmed my acceptance as a son before my water baptism, and that I did not say that manifestation meant I don't need the church or the scriptures to guide me there's nothing to defend here in that regard. It's amazing to me that you somehow got all this out of what I said. I have the feeling you're responding in accordance with preconceived ideas of what you resist in doctrines about the Spirit. I'll just say the Bible does not say it is as sterile and purely academic as you seem to be suggesting it is. Perhaps that's just your experience.

The Bible doesn't mention such a burning of the bosom, although it DOES consider the Church the pillar and foundation of the truth. We know we have the Spirit by our ACTIONS, not by feelings in the bosom easily manufactured.

Oh, but you are sooooo wrong. And then when you are confronted with the scriptures that teach otherwise you are the one that suddenly becomes subjective about it. Very interesting isn't that?

"...you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy..." (Isaiah 60:5 NIV1984)

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. (Gal. 5:22-23 NIV1984)

"...the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit..." (Romans 14: 17 NIV1984)

And you're telling me joy must be excused as an emotional evidence of a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit? It's clear that obedience is not the only manifestation of the Spirit by which the Spirit can be measured.

Atheists get the same feeling when they swindle someone out of their money...

Okay, so you are saying that we are to discard all the scriptures that speak of emotional manifestations of the Spirit because atheists have good feelings too, right? Whether you realize it or not, that is what you are showing you believe. This is not uncommon doctrine in a church that is largely unfamiliar with actually experiencing God as an actual being and instead relates to him through factual knowledge alone.

Like 'love' since pagans have that too I guess we can reject all of God's counsel about that and how that is a sign of his presence, too. I'm guessing you've castrated the scriptures as you have because of a very serious unscriptural bias against enjoying an emotional relationship with God. You're certainly not the first person to let atheists and fakes dictate what is true in scripture and what is not.

Not to sound unkind or dismissive, but that "burning" is a feeling that can easily be manufactured emotionally by yourself. It can be "felt" by ANYONE, even non-Christians, as aptly pointed out. It proves nothing.

Well, like I say, if I had said the fire of the Spirit Jesus said he'd baptize with was the sign that I belonged to God as a son I'd mount a more thorough defense against what you're saying. But as it is, I said the voice of the Spirit himself testifying to my adoption as a son is what confirmed my salvation before my water baptism. I know you're going to wring your hands trying to figure out a way to discredit my testimony, but you can't. The scriptures say that's one way we can know we belong to God via the Holy Spirit. You can't take that away from anybody. You just have to have the strength to just let it be. Can you do that? It's a giant step of maturity to be able to do that.

I am saying that baptism through water and the Spirit is the operative, normal, ordinary way for coming to Christ. You state that baptism by water was a mistake of Christianity for 1900 years...

:

Regards

No, I'm confused. I did not say that. I'm saying you are out of scriptural bounds to say no one can get the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. The hard part is cutting through the doctrinal bias that immediately hears that as meaning 'we can forsake the command to be water baptized'.

This argument (that one can only get the Holy Spirit through water baptism) is one of the pillars that holds up the 'salvation only through water baptism' argument. But it's easily seen in the Bible there is no such pillar upon which to base that argument.

 

[francisdesales]

I'll just say the Bible does not say it is as sterile and purely academic as you seem to be suggesting it is. Perhaps that's just your experience.

I am not suggesting that the Spirit is "purely academic". You are stating that. I am saying that feelings ALONE mean nothing to whether the Spirit of God is present. People have feelings of joy and are atheists. Surely, you are not suggesting that when someone has joy, that the Spirit of God MUST be the catalyst??? The bible gives us a clear way of KNOWING God's Spirit dwells within us. It is obedience to God. Not emotional feelings.

Oh, but you are sooooo wrong. And then when you are confronted with the scriptures that teach otherwise you are the one that suddenly becomes subjective about it. Very interesting isn't that?

Whatever. This is a tremendous stretch to state that when ANYONE has "joy", that means the Spirit of God dwells within. Your quotes say nothing about the "burning in the bosom". Burning in the bosom is not supported by Scriptures. It is an entirely different thing to turn to that subjective "burning" as PROOF POSITIVE of anything vs what the word "joy" actually means. Being filled with joy is not associated with "burning in the bosom". Have you actually consulted with what the Greek word (or Hebrew, in your OT citation) actually renders in English? It certainly is not a "burning in the bosom" that PROVES ANYTHING...

Joy, 'chara', is "gladness". Not a certainty that you are filled with God's Spirit, as you falsely proclaim.

ANYONE, even a Buddhist, a Muslim, an atheist, can have gladness. The Scriptures are merely stating that the Spirit's dwelling produces joy. It doesn't state that having joy equates to being filled with the Spirit.

And you're telling me joy must be excused as an emotional evidence of a relationship with God through the Holy Spirit? It's clear that obedience is not the only manifestation of the Spirit by which the Spirit can be measured.

Scriptures tell us that THIS is how we KNOW that the Spirit dwells within. Obedience to the commandments. All the emotional huppala is meaningless if it doesn't lead us to faithful love. Just because you saw a good show and got all excited at your communal celebration doesn't mean that now, the Spirit of God rests in you!!!

Okay, so you are saying that we are to discard all the scriptures that speak of emotional manifestations...

No, I am not saying that, so excuse me if I cut you off in your long-winded presumptions about me.

I am saying that emotional manifestations, alone, prove nothing about God's presence. And here is where some tricksters and charlatans use every trick in the book to fake an emotional response from gullible people into thinking that they have God's Spirit within them. A bit of "Amen", and "HALLELUIA" and people are so quick to think they are led by the Spirit. :eeeekkk:p:eeeekkk

Please. It is offensive to the mind to fall for such silliness. Being a saint is not about whooping it up on Sundays... Where does the Gospels speak of such nonsense? Where did Jesus whoop up the crowds? Where did Jesus talk about "feelings"? No, He spoke of obedience to the Will of God, not about "burnings in the bosoms"...

Well, like I say, if I had said the fire of the Spirit Jesus said he'd baptize with was the sign that I belonged to God as a son I'd mount a more thorough defense against what you're saying.

You have not explained to me how you were baptized in fire yet.

But as it is, I said the voice of the Spirit himself

Based on what evidence? How did you distinguish the Spirit's voice from your own or Satan's or preacher Billy Bob?

I know you're going to wring your hands trying to figure out a way to discredit my testimony, but you can't.

I think the problem is your inability to prove anything. You just state it as fact.

The FACT of one's birth in Christ is PROVEN by our obedience to God. Not by your little heart palpitations...

The scriptures say that's one way we can know we belong to God via the Holy Spirit. You can't take that away from anybody.

By obedience. Not by being joyful...

I'm saying you are out of scriptural bounds to say no one can get the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. The hard part is cutting through the doctrinal bias that immediately hears that as meaning 'we can forsake the command to be water baptized'.

Let's try this again, as the sentence you cited has three words in it that turns your preconceived assumptions of my point of view upside down:

I am saying that baptism through water and the Spirit is the operative, normal, ordinary way for coming to Christ. You state that baptism by water was a mistake of Christianity for 1900 years...

I NEVER said no one can have the Spirit without water baptism. Nor has the Church. The Catechism states this, as well. Thus, "baptism by desire" and "baptism by blood". Google it, if you want.

It is NORMAL. ORIDINARY. It is not exclusively the only way. OF COURSE God is not bound by the sacraments. HOWEVER, it is VERY clear in Scriptures that the Apostles are COMMANDED to baptize. THEY are being told to baptize. Thus, from the lips of Jesus, the Spirit of God ORDINARILY baptizes through the Apostles (and those whom they delegate) actively doing the baptizing with water, while understanding - through faith - that the Spirit is working by uniting the new Christian to the death and resurrection of Christ.

And in EVERY case in Scriptures, one who has received the Spirit is ultimately baptized. Thus, the two are inexorably linked. NO ONE says "I already have the Spirit, I don't need baptism". They say the opposite. They become baptized. With water and the Spirit.

Thus, your idea that "one doesn't need to be baptized because they already have the Spirit" is fallacious.

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am not suggesting that the Spirit is "purely academic". You are stating that. I am saying that feelings ALONE mean nothing to whether the Spirit of God is present. People have feelings of joy and are atheists. Surely, you are not suggesting that when someone has joy, that the Spirit of God MUST be the catalyst??? The bible gives us a clear way of KNOWING God's Spirit dwells within us. It is obedience to God. Not emotional feelings.

Your job now is to go back and show me where I said the witness of the Spirit alone is how we know we belong to God, and then somehow relate all this to the argument that you can only be saved by being baptized, because I'm not following you down this bunny trail anymore until you show me it's relevance to the discussion.

Whatever. This is a tremendous stretch to state that when ANYONE has "joy", that means the Spirit of God dwells within.

Please show me where I said this, okay?

Your quotes say nothing about the "burning in the bosom". Burning in the bosom is not supported by Scriptures.

"...you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy..." (Isaiah 60:5 NIV1984)

(note the radiance around the pious looking fellow's head in your avatar)

It is an entirely different thing to turn to that subjective "burning" as PROOF POSITIVE of anything vs what the word "joy" actually means. Being filled with joy is not associated with "burning in the bosom".

Where does your heart throb with the joy and gladness of the Spirit...your feet? Or does that happen at all for you?

Have you actually consulted with what the Greek word (or Hebrew, in your OT citation) actually renders in English? It certainly is not a "burning in the bosom" that PROVES ANYTHING...

Joy, 'chara', is "gladness". Not a certainty that you are filled with God's Spirit, as you falsely proclaim.

Out of Christian courtesy to me quote me where I said this is always a certainty that you are filled with God's Spirit, okay?

ANYONE, even a Buddhist, a Muslim, an atheist, can have gladness. The Scriptures are merely stating that the Spirit's dwelling produces joy. It doesn't state that having joy equates to being filled with the Spirit.

What is it about 'joy' being a fruit of the Spirit that you do not understand? And why have you twisted what I said to mean joy is an exclusive quality and experience of the believer?

Scriptures tell us that THIS is how we KNOW that the Spirit dwells within. Obedience to the commandments. All the emotional huppala is meaningless if it doesn't lead us to faithful love.

At the risk of sounding arrogant I probably could teach this better than you. Please forgive the forwardness of that statement, but I feel it necessary that you know I'm very, very familiar with and equipped to teach from the scriptures about love being the epitome of a relationship with God.

I am saying that emotional manifestations, alone, prove nothing about God's presence.

Okay, okay...another subject in scripture you think we can ignore.

And here is where some tricksters and charlatans use every trick in the book to fake an emotional response from gullible people into thinking that they have God's Spirit within them. A bit of "Amen", and "HALLELUIA" and people are so quick to think they are led by the Spirit. :eeeekkk:p:eeeekkk

Why do you let fakes and manipulators rob the church of the truth of scripture? When will we Christians stop throwing the baby out with the bath water just because of insincere people who distort the truth? Are we not well enough equipped to deal scripturally with these kinds of attacks on the church?

Please. It is offensive to the mind to fall for such silliness. Being a saint is not about whooping it up on Sundays... Where does the Gospels speak of such nonsense? Where did Jesus whoop up the crowds? Where did Jesus talk about "feelings"? No, He spoke of obedience to the Will of God, not about "burnings in the bosoms"...

You are certainly entitled to have an unemotional relationship with God if ou want. But I think it very wrong of you to insist everyone else have that too.

You have not explained to me how you were baptized in fire yet.

Radiance. You won't get it until you experience it yourself. I'm not sharing anymore because I know you're just going to tear into it like a rabid dog.

Don't knock what you haven't experienced yourself, but which is clearly Biblical.

Based on what evidence? How did you distinguish the Spirit's voice from your own or Satan's or preacher Billy Bob?

The same way you distinguish God's testimony in your heart that you are a son of God. You do have that right? If you do then you know exactly how I do.

I think the problem is your inability to prove anything. You just state it as fact.

Scripture is fact. I'd be surprised if you wanted to argue that. And what I've given you is scripture. And not even my interpretation of it...just plain scripture.

The FACT of one's birth in Christ is PROVEN by our obedience to God. Not by your little heart palpitations...

Please, please show me where I said I knew I was a son of God purely on the basis of the manifestation of the Spirit in fire alone. In your search for that quote do note where I said it was the testimony of the voice of God that confirmed my salvation after I surrendered to Christ.

By obedience. Not by being joyful...

Eventually, yes, obedience is how we know we have the Spirit of God within us. But the scriptures are as plain as day that 'joy' is a fruit of the Spirit. How can you argue with that?

Thus, your idea that "one doesn't need to be baptized because they already have the Spirit" is fallacious.

Regards

Again, out of Christian courtesy to me, please quote where I said this. And in your search please note where I did said we are to obey the command to be water baptized. Fair enough?

 

[francisdesales]

Your job now is to go back and show me where I said the witness of the Spirit alone is how we know we belong to God, and then somehow relate all this to the argument that you can only be saved by being baptized, because I'm not following you down this bunny trail anymore until you show me it's relevance to the discussion.

I'm afraid you are the one claiming that I said one is only saved by water baptism, which I never said nor implied. I can see why you are confused about the bunny trail.

Please show me where I said this, okay?

This is a tremendous stretch to state that when ANYONE has "joy", that means the Spirit of God dwells within.

I see the game you are playing. Rather than address the issues, we must re-cite everything again. Deny everything you wrote. Why exactly did you cite three Scripture verses with the word "Joy" in them??? You are stating that YOU can know you have the Spirit within you by the "burning of the bosom". I asked "where is this in Scriptures - this "burning of the bosom". You then tell me about joy. That isn't proof, as I have said again and again.

But rather than address it, I have to repost your posts again? I think not. I will just ask you - WHY did you post three verses from Scriptures?

Joy is a sign of the Spirit's presence, but it does not follow that joy is ALWAYS the cause by the Spirit. This is perfectly clear from my example. Thus, your point remains moot - and you deny even making the point to begin with!

"...you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy..." (Isaiah 60:5 NIV1984)

(note the radiance around the pious looking fellow's head in your avatar)

Yea, he is wonderfully handsome guy, ain't he? :p

However, WHY we know St. Francis is a saint is not the halo or his joy - but his obedience to God's will. I have read some of his works, and I don't recall him stating anything about a "burning in the bosom" as evidence of God's Spirit. Although God's Spirit can bring joy, it is not objective to make such a statement. Same with Isaiah.

Is this getting through?

Where does your heart throb with the joy and gladness of the Spirit...your feet? Or does that happen at all for you?

I am not sure of what the point of your sarcasm is.

Have I had numinous experiences? Yes. Does that PROVE they are from God? No. Read some spiritual works on such subjects. You will find that these spiritual directors SHY AWAY from such things and direct their charges to not focus on these things. They are causes of pride and can be manufactured. They do NOT prove the Spirit of God's presence.

Out of Christian courtesy to me quote me where I said this is always a certainty that you are filled with God's Spirit, okay?

I have asked you on a number of occasions how you know you have the Spirit, and the "burning bosom" is your answer. Out of Christian courtesy, perhaps you could give me some evidence beyond your feelings of what could be heart burn. People are moved by emotional feelings of sorrow, awe and wonder. COUNTLESS people have feelings of emotions looking at nature and its beauty or considering their spouse. You have been told over and over that these feelings can be had by anyone. But you continue to use them as your "proof" of abiding in the Spirit. You have given NO OTHER WAY. Thus, logically, this is YOUR means, the only means, of knowing you are "in the Spirit", because you got some feelings.

What is it about 'joy' being a fruit of the Spirit that you do not understand? And why have you twisted what I said to mean joy is an exclusive quality and experience of the believer?

Again, because of your comments.

At the risk of sounding arrogant I probably could teach this better than you. Please forgive the forwardness of that statement, but I feel it necessary that you know I'm very, very familiar with and equipped to teach from the scriptures about love being the epitome of a relationship with God.

So saith you. No doubt, this burning bosom feeling makes you say this as another act of humility.

Okay, okay...another subject in scripture you think we can ignore.

I am saying that emotional manifestations, alone, prove nothing about God's presence.

OK, show me where the Bible makes the statement where by emotional manifestations, alone, prove that God is present...

Why do you let fakes and manipulators rob the church of the truth of scripture?

I'm not letting anyone do such things. That is why I post here!!!

You need to ask yourself that question the next time Pastor Billy Bob gets in his monster truck and crushes 20 cars painted to represent demons to the delight of your burning bosom... :snicker

Or whatever he does to get the crowd going.

When will we Christians stop throwing the baby out with the bath water just because of insincere people who distort the truth?

I ask myself that a lot... To you, baptism has practically no meaning:

#140

Some (very few in my experience) do receive the Spirit at water baptism, some do not. I just happen to be one that did not. But that certainly didn't mean I could skip my water baptism. It does have value in cementing one's decision, or pledge, to follow Christ in the obediences of faith.

In other words, take it or leave it. You don't really need it. Very few receive the Spirit, according to your spiritual XRay vision... What babble. It makes one WONDER WHY ON EARTH did Jesus tells HIS APOSTLES TO BAPTIZE, considering how your anti-Scriptural view makes it a practically useless ritual...

You are certainly entitled to have an unemotional relationship with God if ou want. But I think it very wrong of you to insist everyone else have that too.

Where did I insist anything like that

I state, yet again, that emotions are NOT the crux of our relationship with God. THEY don't prove anything. Having them is wonderful, but hanging your hat on them leads to serious problems. In addition, the Bible says nothing about their necessity OR to prove the Spirit's presence. Love is an act of the will, not of emotions. Jesus never stated (at least from the Gospels) that we must have emotional connections to God or that we need to have a burning bosom to prove His abiding presence. He never mentions such stuff.

You HAVE read the Gospels, right? Can you give me some such examples of Jesus telling us to turn to our feelings to verify His presence within us?

Don't knock what you haven't experienced yourself, but which is clearly Biblical.

With all due respect, you are clueless with what I have experienced. For all you know, I have floated in the air with St. Francis and his halo. The fact of the matter is that I don't put my faith in such emotions. So you may now stop making such silly comments.

The same way you distinguish God's testimony in your heart that you are a son of God. You do have that right? If you do then you know exactly how I do.

The testimony has meaning only to the degree that we obey God. THAT is your proof, not emotions.

Scripture is fact.

Yea, and EVERYONE desiring to be Christian strives to be baptized. In water. For it saves.

NOT ONE claims like you - "take it or leave it, it doesn't matter, most people don't have the Spirit who have been water baptized anyways..."

See post #140 above if you suddenly forgotten what you wrote...

I'd be surprised if you wanted to argue that. And what I've given you is scripture. And not even my interpretation of it...just plain scripture.

I didn't ask for the facts of Scriptures - I asked for HOW YOU WERE BAPTIZED IN FIRE. Is that not clear enough for you, or will you deny you actually said that, as well?

Please, please show me where I said I knew I was a son of God purely on the basis of the manifestation of the Spirit in fire alone.

I didn't say you did...

Eventually, yes, obedience is how we know we have the Spirit of God within us. But the scriptures are as plain as day that 'joy' is a fruit of the Spirit. How can you argue with that?

It is. So is patience.

And let me ask you. Is each and every act of patience evidence of God's Spirit working within someone?

If "no", then ANY act of patience cannot be objective evidence of the Spirit of God. This is simply logic. God's Spirit brings forth patience in a soul, but one must recognize that there is a context here. Each and every act of patience is not a work of the Spirit. The Bible doesn't state that.

Thus, to state that the 'burning in the bosom' is equated with God's Spirit is a fallacious argument, since that burning can be caused by an assundry other things. As proof, it has little value. It is subjective.

It becomes worthwhile when it leads one to obey God. I am not sure how many times I must state this, but that is the simple truth of the matter:

And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. Acts 5:32

And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:24

The Bible doesn't state that "we know we are given the Spirit of God when we have joy" or any other emotions.

WE KNOW WHEN WE OBEY!

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

hes going by galatians 5.

and well seldom do i feel happy like that(giddy) but i know when god is pleased with me.

i will feel empowered to do his will and pray more when i do it.

this has occured numerously when i started doing devotionals with my son. i dont look for that joy but it does happen. feelings are a part of the walk but not the keeper nor grounder of our faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm afraid you are the one claiming that I said one is only saved by water baptism, which I never said nor implied. I can see why you are confused about the bunny trail.

You said that the Spirit and water baptism are inextricably connected together. But if you want you can go on record that one could possibly be saved and never be water baptized then do so. Do you believe that, or not?

This is a tremendous stretch to state that when ANYONE has "joy", that means the Spirit of God dwells within.

I see the game you are playing. Rather than address the issues, we must re-cite everything again. Deny everything you wrote.

All I ask is for you to show me where I said, "when ANYONE has "joy", that means the Spirit of God dwells within". It's not a game. You owe it to me to back up what you're accusing me of. I think that's fair and reasonable.

Why exactly did you cite three Scripture verses with the word "Joy" in them??? You are stating that YOU can know you have the Spirit within you by the "burning of the bosom". I asked "where is this in Scriptures - this "burning of the bosom". You then tell me about joy. That isn't proof, as I have said again and again.

You're forgetting why this even came up. It was incorrectly assumed the witness of the Spirit I said I had, and which the Bible speaks about, was a literal manifestation of the Spirit. I said, even though the fire of the Spirit was present, and entirely Biblical, that was not what I was basing my contention on that I born again before my water baptism.

I'm not the one who launched into a discussion about the validity of literal manifestations of the Spirit. But in response I did defend physical manifestations of the Spirit as entirely Biblical and legitimate, even the fact that the Spirit does well up in a person's heart. And somehow that got twisted around into I said that all by itself it shows you belong to God.

But rather than address it, I have to repost your posts again? I think not. I will just ask you - WHY did you post three verses from Scriptures?

To show you that even though the physical manifestation of the Spirit is NOT what I was talking about that confirmed my salvation, they are indeed legitimate, Biblical experiences.

Joy is a sign of the Spirit's presence, but it does not follow that joy is ALWAYS the cause by the Spirit. This is perfectly clear from my example. Thus, your point remains moot - and you deny even making the point to begin with!

Really, you owe it to me to show me where I said "joy is ALWAYS the cause of the Spirit". You owe it to me. I don't believe that, and if you look you'll see where I acknowledged that I know even unbelievers have joy.

Yea, he is wonderfully handsome guy, ain't he? :p

However, WHY we know St. Francis is a saint is not the halo or his joy - but his obedience to God's will. I have read some of his works, and I don't recall him stating anything about a "burning in the bosom" as evidence of God's Spirit. Although God's Spirit can bring joy, it is not objective to make such a statement. Same with Isaiah.

Is this getting through?

What's getting through is your obvious resistance to the plain scriptures I showed you. Call it a 'burning in the bosom' if you want (I don't, but I think I understand the choice of illustration). I showed you in the Bible where it plainly speaks of welling up in heart. And surely you remember the radiance of Moses when he came down off the mountain. It kinda looks to me like you're getting frustrated because you know you're going up against plain scripture. And that you're trying to spin it to your advantage by claiming I said those experiences all by themselves validate one's relationship with God. Just show me where I said that. That's all you gotta do.

Have I had numinous experiences? Yes. Does that PROVE they are from God? No. Read some spiritual works on such subjects. You will find that these spiritual directors SHY AWAY from such things and direct their charges to not focus on these things. They are causes of pride and can be manufactured. They do NOT prove the Spirit of God's presence.

Remember, I'm not the one who said it was the sole proof that you belong to God. What I did was defend them as legitimate experiences for the one who belongs to God (you said 'burning bosom' was not a legitimate experience). The way out for you on this is to acknowledge that I did not say you can know you belong to God by having a physical manifestation of the Spirit, all by itself. What I said is you can indeed have those manifestations. They are Biblical.

I have asked you on a number of occasions how you know you have the Spirit, and the "burning bosom" is your answer.

Uh, no, that was not my answer. The evidence I spoke of was the witness of the Spirit himself, and I showed you it in the Bible. I even made the point at least twice that the physical manifestation of the Spirit at my conversion was not what I was basing my confirmation of salvation on. But those manifestations are certainly Biblical.

Out of Christian courtesy, perhaps you could give me some evidence beyond your feelings of what could be heart burn.

Heartburn????? What makes you think the Isaiah 60 passage feels like heartburn????? Actually, the radiance spoken of for me, when it happens, is felt in my face (and visible to others), and the throbbing of the heart obviously is in the chest, but hardly like heartburn! Have you ever been in love? Does that feel like heartburn, lol?

People are moved by emotional feelings of sorrow, awe and wonder. COUNTLESS people have feelings of emotions looking at nature and its beauty or considering their spouse. You have been told over and over that these feelings can be had by anyone. But you continue to use them as your "proof" of abiding in the Spirit. You have given NO OTHER WAY. Thus, logically, this is YOUR means, the only means, of knowing you are "in the Spirit", because you got some feelings.

Show me where I said a physical manifestation of the Spirit was how I knew I was born again before my water baptism. Along the way you'll see I made it a point that it was the witness of the Spirit as Paul speaks about that in Romans 8 that was my confirmation of salvation.

To you, baptism has practically no meaning:

#140

Some (very few in my experience) do receive the Spirit at water baptism, some do not. I just happen to be one that did not. But that certainly didn't mean I could skip my water baptism. It does have value in cementing one's decision, or pledge, to follow Christ in the obediences of faith.

In other words, take it or leave it. You don't really need it. Very few receive the Spirit, according to your spiritual XRay vision... What babble. It makes one WONDER WHY ON EARTH did Jesus tells HIS APOSTLES TO BAPTIZE, considering how your anti-Scriptural view makes it a practically useless ritual...

You're being irrational. How do you get out of what I said that you can take it or leave it (water baptism)?

Of all the Christians I've known in 25 years as a Christian I only remember one saying they received the Spirit at their water baptism. All other testimonies were of being born again by the Spirit first, then being water baptized. This is not about spiritual x-ray. This is about what real people say.

I state, yet again, that emotions are NOT the crux of our relationship with God. THEY don't prove anything. Having them is wonderful, but hanging your hat on them leads to serious problems.

Well, I guess if I had been saying that it would be appropriate to for you to say this. But as it is...

In addition, the Bible says nothing about their necessity OR to prove the Spirit's presence.

The Bible plainly says joy is a fruit, an expression, of the Holy Spirit. If you have the joy of the Spirit how can that not be an expression of the Spirit?

Do you have to have joy? No. But you'll be living in a stunted relationship with God. "The joy of the Lord is your strength." (Nehemiah 8:10 NIV 1984).

Love is an act of the will, not of emotions. Jesus never stated (at least from the Gospels) that we must have emotional connections to God or that we need to have a burning bosom to prove His abiding presence.

It's a proof of the abiding Spirit. I guess I made a mistake by following you down the bunny trail of spiritual manifestations of the Spirit. Manifestations I plainly said were not the basis for my knowing I was a son of God before my water baptism, but which I did defend as Biblical experiences. You have not been rational, or even fair, in this discussion. (edit: just wait till you read what's next!)

Yea, and EVERYONE desiring to be Christian strives to be baptized. In water. For it saves.

NOT ONE claims like you - "take it or leave it, it doesn't matter, most people don't have the Spirit who have been water baptized anyways..."

See post #140 above if you suddenly forgotten what you wrote...

Here is my post, #140:

Jethro Bodine: "And that is where the argument gets misrepresented IMO. Even if you do receive the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism, that does not now relieve you of the command to be water baptized. It simply means you did not receive the Spirit at your water baptism. Some (very few in my experience) do receive the Spirit at water baptism, some do not. I just happen to be one that did not. But that certainly didn't mean I could skip my water baptism. It does have value in cementing one's decision, or pledge, to follow Christ in the obediences of faith."

Since you won't go back and quote what you claim I have been saying in this forum I'm glad for this opportunity so we can all see how dishonest and insincere and unfair you have been in this thread.

I didn't ask for the facts of Scriptures - I asked for HOW YOU WERE BAPTIZED IN FIRE. Is that not clear enough for you, or will you deny you actually said that, as well?

Why aren't you reading my posts? The fire of the Spirit was the radiance of the Spirit. I said this. But certainly not the only fire of the Spirit.

After the horrible misquote above I've lost all respect for you to be fair and honest in this discussion. I'm terribly disappointed by what you've done. I have no reason to think you'll read my posts with open ears let alone with honestly and and an open heart. Truthfully, you've lost all credibility in this forum in my opinion.

Thus, to state that the 'burning in the bosom' is equated with God's Spirit is a fallacious argument, since that burning can be caused by an assundry other things. As proof, it has little value. It is subjective.

I said the Spirit welling up inside of a person is Biblical. It's very dishonest of you to stretch it into something I didn't say.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

hes going by galatians 5.

and well seldom do i feel happy like that(giddy) but i know when god is pleased with me.

i will feel empowered to do his will and pray more when i do it.

this has occured numerously when i started doing devotionals with my son. i dont look for that joy but it does happen. feelings are a part of the walk but not the keeper nor grounder of our faith.

Amen, brother.

And that's what praise and worship is all about. It flows out of an unspeakable joy that comes by the Holy Spirit.

"8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy..." (1 Peter 1:8 NIV1984)

 

[jasoncran]

nehamiah 8:10

the joy of the lord is our strength.

way off topic. i cant for the live me understand why some still think god was any different to them when they wrote that.

moses spoke of his mercy, and jermehiah said he had to speak.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

nehamiah 8:10

the joy of the lord is our strength.

way off topic. i cant for the live me understand why some still think god was any different to them when they wrote that.

moses spoke of his mercy, and jermehiah said he had to speak.

The OT is were we see examples of people rejoicing in heartfelt, almost obnoxious praise and worship to God. Praise and worship and open expressions of love for God that so many in the Church do not experience...to their loss for sure. I'm so thankful God hooked me up to the truths of having a legitimate, emotional experience with God through the Holy Spirit, but which I had no knowledge about whatsoever while growing up in the various churches my mom and dad took me to.

 

[jasoncran]

ah francis isnt charismatic and wont understand that.

i have felt that alot but not as much as i used too.

i dont think catholics in their services get that. their liturgy is rather quiet. yet knowing what i do of my ancestry. the jews are feastive.

just look at the wedding feasts mentioned in parables.

a month spent on wedding celebration!

 

[francisdesales]

You said that the Spirit and water baptism are inextricably connected together. But if you want you can go on record that one could possibly be saved and never be water baptized then do so. Do you believe that, or not?

I think we are going nowhere because you are not reading my posts. I ALREADY HAVE gone on the record! But you have me in a box of assumptions and presumptions, thinking you got me figured out, when you are clueless about my spirituality. You think just because I think, my faith is merely academic. 2

In addition, you continue to argue with a strawman.

For example, you think that I believe that one MUST be baptized... WHEN have I said that? I have told you I don't, nor does the Church teach it. I mentioned baptism by blood and desire, did I not? Did I not say "ordinarily"? To no one in the audience, apparently. According to you, I never have experienced any emotions in my praise and worship. Never cried, got excited, sang ALLELUIA, etc.. You know this, of course, because how again? Have I said I never did? According to you, my belief in God is purely static, elementary, logical and intellectual.

You are a piece of work to make such presumptions just because I said emotions do not prove anything... And I am not alone in stating such things, if you did some reading of classic spirituality.

I have stated two things adamantly -

1. Ordinarily, it is required to be baptized in water in the name of the Trinity. Didn't Jesus command this? Apparently, that means very little to you. If we are aware of it and are able to do so, we are to be baptized. But God is not bound by the sacraments. People in Peru in 1200 AD COULD be saved, if it was God's will, without the sacrament! Who is condemning billions to eternal damnation because they never heard of Christianity? Not me.

2. Emotions do not prove anything about God's presence in one's life. Anyone beyond the age of ten should be able to figure this out. They are aware of emotions that stem from non-religious sources. Doing well on a test, scoring a TD in football, going on your first date, your first kiss, getting accepted into a good college! Jeez, how old are you again? Please. Emotions of joy are not always linked to God's Spirit. Is that not clear enough??? The presence of joy is not proof of God's Spirit, although God's Spirit does bring joy, patience, etc...

The "burning in the bosom" is not proof of anything. It CAN be God's Spirit, but feelings can be easily manufactured. That is fact.

With number one, you STILL are not privy to my point, despite repeating it several times for you. For number 2, you just merely repeat it without any objective or Scriptural evidence. In the face of OTHER verses that tell how we CAN know God's presence - by obedience (which you consider secondary by your posts)

You dismiss water baptism, as "so few actually receive the Spirit through it", and obedience, quite frankly, is secondary to you - you continue to insist on feelings, despite the lack of Scriptures which proves anything. And you have the gall to talk to me about your massive abilities on knowing Scriptures???

What is the point in continuing? Continue tilting your lance at the windmills... Burn me in effigy. I made my point and you have decided not to respond to them. I got better things to do.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

ah francis isnt charismatic and wont understand that.

i have felt that alot but not as much as i used too.

i dont think catholics in their services get that. their liturgy is rather quiet. yet knowing what i do of my ancestry. the jews are feastive.

just look at the wedding feasts mentioned in parables.

a month spent on wedding celebration!

Jason,

I think you are missing my point - and are misjudging me.

I didn't say that I never experienced joyful emotions. However, spiritual teachers know that one cannot live on emotions in our walk (Perhaps that is why some pastors feel the need to whoop it up every Sunday - for fear that the emotions will "dry up". Next week, they will bring in some karate expert and give a demonstration for the crowd to "ooh" and "ahh". THAT is NOT an experience of the Living God, but it keeps the mob coming back for more entertainment).

What happens when you go dry in your prayer life? Do you then assume the Spirit of God has left? Apparently, some do, bouncing around for another "experience"... Another baptism because the other didn't take. Or maybe some better musicians and singing. Or maybe a preacher with more STYLE and PIZZAZ! This is chasing the entertainment, not God, Jason...

There is no need for such shows. Yes, emotions help in our walk, but those who focus on them are bound to fall when God takes away those pleasantries - and He does... You mention Jeremiah. I presume you have READ Jeremiah. Wasn't always an excited and emotionally joyful guy, was he...? HE was God's prophet because of his obedience, not his "joy" in the cistern!

My point is not to disparage emotions, but that we cannot rely on them. They are nice to have, but they are not the important part of our relationship with God, nor do they prove God's Spirit abiding in us.

Jeremiah obeyed God, even when he didn't feel like it, even when his emotions told him otherwise. Focus on obeying God, not on your feelings. That is how the Bible tells us we know God is present in us. Not "burning bosoms".

Regards

 

[Webb]

Francis

With the exception of one point and another of not knowing what you meand by one pharse, I heartily agree with your last 2 posts.

 

[francisdesales]

Francis

With the exception of one point and another of not knowing what you meand by one pharse, I heartily agree with your last 2 posts.

I understand that we may disagree. OK...

But on the one that you are unsure of what I meant, I would be happy to clarify.

Regards