Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, and I'm wondering why God would create a world were sometimes that "expression of saving faith" cannot be accomplished between the moment of belief, and death of our body.

I wonder that, too.

I personally don't think God is as much the legalist as some would make him out to be.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Me either.

So the argument some make that baptism is a work that man does to earn salvation is false.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Good point


I agree! Too bad, if baptism is required no-matter-what, that God had to go and create a universe in which He knew there'd be circumstances where ones who genuinely loved Him would not be able to be baptized.

It's not God's fault if a person is not baptized. Where does the bible say God has to bow down to circumstances? As I posted earlier, if some want to try and put God between 'two horns of a delemma' where either God has to go along with their idea that baptism is not required or else God is being mean spirited and heartless, that's on them not me.

The issue is can you prove from the bible that baptism is not essential to salvation?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue is can you prove from the bible that baptism is not essential to salvation?

Essential to be declared righteous, or essential as it being an expected and obligatory obedience of saving faith (like 'love your neighbor as yourself' is)? Which one?

Let's talk.

 

[beforHim]

It's not God's fault if a person is not baptized. Where does the bible say God has to bow down to circumstances? As I posted earlier, if some want to try and put God between 'two horns of a delemma' where either God has to go along with their idea that baptism is not required or else God is being mean spirited and heartless, that's on them not me.

The issue is can you prove from the bible that baptism is not essential to salvation?

Since I'm no systematic theologian, and have thought this throgh mostly on a more "seeker sensitive" and "leymen's" level, I'll concede for now. if anything comes to my mind, I'll reply back.

 

[beforHim]

I wonder that, too.

I personally don't think God is as much the legalist as some would make him out to be.

You see I'm inclined to this as well. Problem is that we don't have any exmaples in the Bible of this. It's like the "once saved always saved". Sure, you could argue over the teaching scriptures, but there are no stories about it, telling us what happened.

But if we go down the path of "it's not in the Bible, therefore it's no good/not true (or whatever)", then we'd have to cut alot of things out of our thinking.

 

[stovebolts]

Stepping back into the discussion here and no, I'm not even going to try to "catch up" on what's been said since the last time I posted...

But, Dad brings up a point that I've been thinking about in regards to this thread.

We all tend to draw hard lines at "faith alone"... That it is faith that saves us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 gets brought up a lot... and for good reason, it's a very tight, concise text about what it is that brings about our salvation... Let's look at it again:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

What is it that saves us? Faith.... No. This passage does not teach us that our faith saves us.

Grace is what saves us... Something we need to keep very much in the forefront of our mind. We gain access to that grace via faith and the faith isn't even our own faith, saving faith itself is a means of God's grace...His gift to us.

Is faith then, the only means of God's grace applied to our salvation?

I don't believe the Scriptures teach us that. I do believe that if one were to look at the Scriptures without glasses tinted by 500 years of Church squabbling over the issue, we would recognized that the bible also teaches that baptism is a means of God's grace as well.

Our repentance is also a gift from God... surely no one believes that we would repent if left on our own, if the Holy Spirit wasn't working in our heart...

Perhaps we should have that discussion, hmmmm... Could it be that repentance is a work of man's?

I don't believe repentance is a work of our's... I believe that repentance that breaks our hearts before God and seeks His forgiveness is wholly a work of the Spirit within us.

Believe, Repent, Be Baptized....

All three are means of God's grace and it is God's grace that saves us. These three means though are vitally important in that they are the means by which God has chosen to bestow His grace upon His people. I don't see where we can take any one out of the three and either elevate it or discard it as a means of God's saving grace.

I don't see anything about free will here at all. Does not a person have the free will to feel one way, yet do something else? Why then do some believe, and some do not believe? Is it by God's design that some would have faith and others no faith given to them?

No, I believe that this shows us that God has faith in us. He has not given up on us and is sticking to his promise from way back when. Man has always had the choice to serve God, or not. To repent, or continue in sin.

As far as this "spirit within us". I would say that ALL men have the Spirit of God in them. It is that spark of life in each and every human being. This is why scripture says, NIV: Ecc 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

and again: ASV Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is why I'm careful to say faith "apart from works".

"...to whom God credits righteousness apart from works." (Romans 4:6 NIV1984)

It takes away the weak support people use to say justification is not by 'faith alone'. They misunderstand (intentionally?) James' message to suggest that a person is declared righteous (justified) by faith and works and not by faith all by itself (apart from works).

Righteousness is credited to a person apart from the condition of a satisfactory effort of commanded work to solicit it. If circumcision is a work, as it most certainly is because that is what Paul uses to illustrate the truth about works that he teaches, then so is baptism. Both circumcision and baptism are 1) commanded by God, 2) not confined to works of the law, 3) performed on you or on your behalf, 4) presented as a condition for salvation, both being misunderstood as legalistic acts that must be completed to trigger salvation.

THe works Paul speaks of in Rom 4:6 are works of merit. David could not earn righteousness by keeping the OT law. The Lord either imputes righteousness or imputes sin. So if righteousness is not earned then how does one have righteousness imputed unto him? "Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." So to be reckoned righteous requires one to have his sins forgiven/sins covered for God will not reckon righteous those that are unrepentant, Rom 2:5, and David was repentant. Therefore for me to be reckoned righteous I must have my sins forgiven, having sins forgiven requires obedience to God's will in believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

So if a situation is not in the Bible, we must refer back to. . . what?

The NT gospel does not teach deathbed salvation so there is no such situation.

 

[handy]

I don't see anything about free will here at all. Does not a person have the free will to feel one way, yet do something else? Why then do some believe, and some do not believe? Is it by God's design that some would have faith and others no faith given to them?

No, I believe that this shows us that God has faith in us. He has not given up on us and is sticking to his promise from way back when. Man has always had the choice to serve God, or not. To repent, or continue in sin.

As far as this "spirit within us". I would say that ALL men have the Spirit of God in them. It is that spark of life in each and every human being. This is why scripture says, NIV: Ecc 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

and again: ASV Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

And this would be where I differ from my Calvinistic brothers and sisters... We have free will in that we can walk away from the gift of faith, we can refuse to repent, we can not be baptized.

However, it is the work of the Spirit that brings us to faith, brings us to repentance and works within our baptisms to bury the old man and raise up the new creation. That we very well may harden our hearts and stiffen our necks when He does so doesn't negate the fact that faith, repentance and baptism are gifts brought to us by the Spirit. A natural man, a person operating on their own understanding and will, won't respond to God. We are truly reliant upon the Holy Spirit to bring us these things.

... but just as it is written,“ Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.â€



For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.


But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:9-16

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Essential to be declared righteous, or essential as it being an expected and obligatory obedience of saving faith (like 'love your neighbor as yourself' is)? Which one?

Let's talk.

As in my earlier post, one must be baptized to have sins forgiven/sins covered, then he can be reckoned righteous.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm going to butt in here...

Your response shows the validity of your faith. Your response does not determine the status of your faith. It reveals it.

The works prove the faith. James said shew/prove your faith without your works and I will shew/prove my faith by my works. If you do not have works, then you cannot prove that you have faith.

 

[Stan53]

As in my earlier post, one must be baptized to have sins forgiven/sins covered, then he can be reckoned righteous.

Then please explain Luke 7:50? No water baptism occurrred here, nor did Jesus require it.
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.â€

 

[reba]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Earnest when you get to heaven ya might ask Paul why God did not have him include water baptism in those verses..


Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Been around long enough in life to be leery of those who think they have 'thee or 'A ' key' to Scripture.

 

[Stan53]

East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

The works prove the faith. James said shew/prove your faith without your works and I will shew/prove my faith by my works. If you do not have works, then you cannot prove that you have faith.

Yes they do, but NOT for Salvation. Eph 2:8-9 states;
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James talks about faith producing works, as we walk in Jesus, AFTER salvation.

Salvation is a single ONE time experience which require FAITH only. Walking in Jesus should automatically produce works, or fruit, and therefore is expected to be seen. Jesus exemplified this, by destroying the fig tree that didn't have fruit it should have had. This was symbolic of what WILL happen to believers that DO NOT produce fruit in their lives.
Let's try to keep the two issues separate, and not cross contaminate them.

 

[reba]

Welcome aboard Stan!

We have a good mix of folks here. I do hope even though we may disagree on some points we can each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Then please explain Luke 7:50? No water baptism occurrred here, nor did Jesus require it.
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Lk 7:30 occurred under the OT law before Acts 2:38, Christ's gospel came into effect. We today who live after Acts 2:38 are accountable to it. Also, Mt 9:6 tells us "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

While Jesus was ON EARTH, He had been given the power/authority by His Father to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving. Yet when Jesus ascended back to heaven and left earth, He left behind His word, the bible as His authority on earth and His word teaches us today that we must be baptized to be saved, Mk 16:16....baptized>>>>sins forgiven>>>reckoned righteous.

 

[Stan53]

Welcome aboard Stan!

We have a good mix of folks here. I do hope even though we may disagree on some points we can each other as brothers and sisters in the Lord!

Thanks.... I will do my best to live up to my signature verse.
Please read my submission in the New Members thread.

 

[handy]

This HAS to be qualified as meaning either "faith, apart from works, to be justified", or "faith with no accompanying works to validate it".

That is why I use "apart from works", and not "faith alone" when I'm talking about being justified by faith all by itself. People misunderstand it and then use it against you if you don't clarify what you mean, because, certainly, they are two very different things.



For the purpose of being declared righteous? Yes.



But still, an obedience that results from faith. Everything is motivated by the grace of faith.



But still wrought by faith.



But, again, still a work wrought by the grace of faith. The grace of faith is the common denominator here.




Why are you choosing not to include every other obedience commanded by God to illustrate this concept of 'means of God's grace that saves us'? The common denominator of them all is faith in God's forgiveness. That is what makes us righteous, all by itself. A righteousness that in turn then leads us into righteous obediences. Those righteous obediences 'save us' in a figurative sense, the faith that motivated them being the actual agent that made us righteous before God.

All you need is faith...faith that can be validated by what it does. The validation part doesn't make us righteous. It shows us to be righteous by our faith in Christ's blood.

We have to be very careful not to make faith an end unto itself. Let's guard against straying into "faith in faith" territory. God's gift of faith opens us up to His grace, grace which is effected in us via our repentance and our baptism. But, unless the grace is effected in us via repentance and baptism, it isn't saving faith. Even you recognize this, Jethro, for you speak of the need of faith being validated.

However, I don't believe that the Scriptures teach that repentance and baptism are validation of faith. James speaks of works as a validation of faith, but nowhere that I can see does the Bible speak of repentance or baptism being a validation of faith..

The Scriptures do not have this overwhelming emphasis on faith... at the expense of repentance and baptism. I see all three being equally important to our regeneration. I guess it gets back to repentance and baptism being no more "works" than faith is.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Earnest when you get to heaven ya might ask Paul why God did not have him include water baptism in those verses..


Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Been around long enough in life to be leery of those who think they have 'thee or 'A ' key' to Scripture.

Maybe you can ask Him what He did not mention grace, repentance or the blood of Christ in those verses ;). Does that mean grace and Christ's blood have nothing to do with salvation? We have to know 'all the counsel of God' to determine what one must do to be saved. Seldom, rarely does just a verse or two exahust all there is to know about a particular subject.