Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[handy]

Then I suggest you read Romans 6:1-14, where Paul pretty clearly illustrates this in verse 4, We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

You're new to the thread, so I understand that you haven't seen that I've used this very text to emphasize that baptism is not just a symbol... but rather the burial of the old man into death and the rising of the new creation.

All the texts that explain what baptism actually is....what it achieves for us makes this clear, that it is the burial of the old man of sin and the rising of the new life in Christ. People make this symbolic... I don't. I believe that this is exactly what is happening during our baptism...which, if it is a work, is NO work of man's, but of the Holy Spirit. This is the work of baptism... it is what it does.

Paul doesn't say, "We were symbolically buried with him... not really, just a symbol here, but you know what I mean..."

No! He says we were buried with Him...so that we may live a new life.

When the Scriptures uses imagery, it tends to make it clear that imagery is at play.... But Paul is describing what the Spirit did for us in our baptism... the putting to death of the old man and the creation of the new life in Christ.

I think it's a mistake to claim things are symbolic when the Scriptures do not describe it as imagery or symbolism.

 

[heymikey80]

Right... now, explain why these texts are "visual imagery and sign" rather than what baptism is, does and effects in us...

The most obvious one sits right at Romans 6:1-4.

Paul is interchanging the metaphorical use of the Greek term "baptism" and its specific use. Metaphorically it's a reference to death, much like we might use "passed away" as a metaphor for "died". If you're skeptical, this metaphorical meaning is also used by Jesus when He asks some disciples, "Are you able to undergo the baptism I am about to undergo?" -- long after and far away from Jesus' baptism by John. (The metaphor means something more distressing than simply "died", but it's a metaphorical use.)

We aren't crucified, physically, either, nor are we physically killed. Paul is specifically pointing out that our baptism is metaphorical of Christ's death.

It's a sign -- a picture of something that has happened spiritually. Nobody's said baptism is appropriate divorced from what it signifies. I don't think it is.

 

[Stan53]

You're new to the thread, so I understand that you haven't seen that I've used this very text to emphasize that baptism is not just a symbol... but rather the burial of the old man into death and the rising of the new creation.

All the texts that explain what baptism actually is....what it achieves for us makes this clear, that it is the burial of the old man of sin and the rising of the new life in Christ. People make this symbolic... I don't. I believe that this is exactly what is happening during our baptism...which, if it is a work, is NO work of man's, but of the Holy Spirit. This is the work of baptism... it is what it does.

Paul doesn't say, "We were symbolically buried with him... not really, just a symbol here, but you know what I mean..."

No! He says we were buried with Him...so that we may live a new life.

When the Scriptures uses imagery, it tends to make it clear that imagery is at play.... But Paul is describing what the Spirit did for us in our baptism... the putting to death of the old man and the creation of the new life in Christ.

I think it's a mistake to claim things are symbolic when the Scriptures do not describe it as imagery or symbolism.

Yes, as I stated in the New Members forum, I am new HERE, NOT new in the faith.
What Paul speaks of in Romans 6 is obviously symbolic. Verse 6 reads; For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his.
This was analogous to the issue. We certainly didn't die physically and get resurrected physically, and there is nothing is scripture that alludes to a spiritual resurrection.

 

[handy]

Stan, I certainly don't have the impression that you're a newbie to the faith...



I think that because we live so much in the physical world, we tend to forget that there are things that are actually, factually, really happening in the spiritual realm. We don't see it, because we don't see the spiritual. Not in the way that God, the angels, demons, etc. do at any rate.

So, we tend to think that things that the bible says is "is this" must be symbolic, because we don't see it. What it is though is the spiritual truth. Not that this makes it less true... as a matter of fact, it makes the truth much more profound.

The Scripture in question doesn't say that baptism is a symbolic representation of our death in Christ.. it states that we have been baptized into His death, that we have been buried with Him and that we have newness of life.

These are truths... not symbolic imagery, but spiritual truths. It is the work of baptism... not us getting wet, we can do that going swimming... but rather a work of the Holy Spirit.

So, I don't see a "metaphorical use of the Greek term "baptism" here. Baptism isn't a "metaphorical" word, it simply means immerse. There were probably times when Mary called upon Jesus to baptize the dishes after supper. It's a very mundane and ordinary word. But, when we are baptized for the remission of our sins, that is exactly what happens... spiritually. Physically, it might look symbolic, but that's ignoring what is truthfully, really, factually, happening spiritually.

 

[Stan53]

Stan,
I think that because we live so much in the physical world, we tend to forget that there are things that are actually, factually, really happening in the spiritual realm. We don't see it, because we don't see the spiritual. Not in the way that God, the angels, demons, etc. do at any rate.

Absolutely, Paul said this in Eph 6:12

So, we tend to think that things that the bible says is "is this" must be symbolic, because we don't see it. What it is though is the spiritual truth. Not that this makes it less true... as a matter of fact, it makes the truth much more profound.

To be literal, then ALL verbage must be actual, and it is not. I sure didn't DIE with Christ, nor was I BURIED. Water Baptism has ALWAYS been to show, like it was with John the Baptist, a dedication and committment to God and in this case to His provision of Jesus Christ. It is a command or instruction to believers.

The Scripture in question doesn't say that baptism is a symbolic representation of our death in Christ.. it states that we have been baptized into His death, that we have been buried with Him and that we have newness of life.
These are truths... not symbolic imagery, but spiritual truths. It is the work of baptism... not us getting wet, we can do that going swimming... but rather a work of the Holy Spirit.
So, I don't see a "metaphorical use of the Greek term "baptism" here. Baptism isn't a "metaphorical" word, it simply means immerse. There were probably times when Mary called upon Jesus to baptize the dishes after supper. It's a very mundane and ordinary word. But, when we are baptized for the remission of our sins, that is exactly what happens... spiritually. Physically, it might look symbolic, but that's ignoring what is truthfully, really, factually, happening spiritually.

Symbolism is within the context and syntax of the words. Sometimes it is apparent and sometimes not. One of the biggest issues between Christians is HOW they read the Bible. Some believe it is totally literal, and others, like myself, see different figures of speech, where the use of a word or words diverge from its usual meaning. It can also be a special repetition, arrangement or omission of words with literal meaning, or a phrase with a specialized meaning not based on the literal meaning of the words in it, as in idiom, metaphor, simile, hyperbole, or personification. The tenses are based on the people Paul was talking to, in the context of what he was talking about. He wouldn't use a present tense for something that happened in the past, and he wouldn't use a past tense for something happening in the present.
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck....

 

[John O]

I believe that it is a part of the salvation process but God does not hold it against us when through circumstances eg death bed confession it is impossible to do so. There are many instances when someone believed in the New Testament and immediately was baptized.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, [even] Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
Act 9:18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptize

John O

 

[heymikey80]

I think that because we live so much in the physical world, we tend to forget that there are things that are actually, factually, really happening in the spiritual realm. We don't see it, because we don't see the spiritual. Not in the way that God, the angels, demons, etc. do at any rate.

I've been presupposing this. Using the physical as a metaphor for the spiritual is not particularly a problem: but it's still a metaphor, and thus not a spiritual necessity.

I think Romans 6 is to the point, because Paul is making water baptism a physical symbol for the physical baptism (an excessively punishing death) of Christ, and saying the metaphor represents a spiritual reality.

So the visual elements of the sacraments are physical representations of a spiritual reality. But it's the spiritual that is necessary. Not the physical representation of it.

So, I don't see a "metaphorical use of the Greek term "baptism" here. Baptism isn't a "metaphorical" word, it simply means immerse.

Well, look & see.

35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came up to him and said to him, “Teacher, we want you to do for us whatever we ask of you.” 36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?” 37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.” 38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” 39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized, 40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.” Mk 10:35-40 ESV

The metaphorical use of the term is clear, it's Greek, it's in all the lexicons, and it's used in Romans 6. In fact without it Paul is making up things, and could not say, "don't you know". Because they wouldn't know.

There were probably times when Mary called upon Jesus to baptize the dishes after supper. It's a very mundane and ordinary word. But, when we are baptized for the remission of our sins, that is exactly what happens... spiritually. Physically, it might look symbolic, but that's ignoring what is truthfully, really, factually, happening spiritually.

It's metaphorical, and the physical act of water baptism is indeed symbolic imagery. Physical water doesn't cleanse spirit. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn 3:6

 

[Webb]

Metaphor, metaphor, metaphor, symbol, symbol, symbol, none of whilch changes one little bit what Jesus said: "he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.''

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It's verse 50 actually, but in any event, Acts 2:38 shows Peter following Christ's great commission that he gave them in Matthew 28:16-20. This was NOT new for them to do. Jesus was doing it in John 3:26 and John 4:1-2. This was ALL before He ascended to God. Although there is some controversy about Mark 16:16, I am willing to accept that it is the same as the Great Commission found in Matthew 28 where Jesus clearly said; “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” These verses are clear but Mark 16:16 seems to be a quick synopsis of what Jesus says in Matthew 28, a Reader's Digest version if you will.

Luke's account of the great commission says "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.", Lk 24:47.

In Acts 2 Peter fulfilled these words of Jesus; Peter was in Jerusalem and preached repent and be baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins.
This is where baptism of the great commission in the name of Christ began so Jn 3:26 and Jn 4:1,2 is not this baptism.

Jesus was our Advocate when He lived on earth. He told His disciples He was going to send ANOTHER Advocate, John 14:16. That Advocate was to remind us of Him and the words He said, and to teach us all things. John 14:26.
Acts 2:38 was not the first time the disciples received the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 says; And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jn 14:26 Jesus was only promising the apostles the Comforter that would teach them all things and bring all things to their remembrance.

The Bible we use today, does NOT clearly show that water baptism is REQUIRED to receive salvation. It is the next step in our new life in Jesus, just as receiving the infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit is. These things come in order.
All we need to be saved is to accept God's gift of redemption as Jesus said in Matthew 26:28; This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mk 16:16 and Acts 2:38 show that baptism is necessary to be saved. God's gift comes attached with the conditions of belief, repentance, confession and baptism. Baptism with the Holy Ghost was promised to the apostles, Acts 1:1-5, it is not promised to anyone today. The one baptism, Eph 4:5, is water baptism in the name of the Lord of the great commission.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

That's NOT what the Bible says, Romans 10:10; For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

You continue to mix the two issues.

Faith ONLY brings salvation, and Faith plus works is how we LIVE out our new life in Jesus. Please don't mix the two.

First, there are many salvic verses not just Romans 10:9,10. We have to examine all savlic verses to determine what is necesary to be saved.

Secondly, Rom 10:9,0 refutes faith only. Paul said one has to believe AND confess with the mouth to be saved. Faith only would rule out confessing with the mouth.

Lastly, the bible says faith alone does NOT justify therefore faith only does NOT bring salvation. Faith only is dead and a dead faith cannot do anything much less save.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...when we are baptized for the remission of our sins, that is exactly what happens... spiritually. Physically, it might look symbolic, but that's ignoring what is truthfully, really, factually, happening spiritually.

Maybe, maybe not. It didn't happen that way for me and Cornelius. And, yes, disregard my experience as false or misunderstood if you want, but we still have the written Word of God that tells us Cornelius and his family did in fact receive the Holy Spirit before and apart from their water baptism, with no reason given as to why it happened that way (that's what I meant by 'unqualified example' earlier in this thread).

There is some good middle ground in all of this (like most doctrinal disputes). It's important to acknowledge that, scripturally, God gave his Holy Spirit before, during, and after water baptism. He did not make a rule that a person can only receive the Holy Spirit, and thus be saved, through water baptism. Scripturally, this simply is not true. It's entirely scriptural to teach the giving of the Holy Spirit through water baptism. But leave some room for God to do it when and where he wants to. That is an honest, scriptural belief concerning the matter. The person who wonders if they must be water baptized has to first examine the reason why they're asking. That gets to the heart of the matter and away from the legalism of the matter.

It's kind of funny that this is even an issue in a church where just a couple of denominations don't baptize their members. So what this boils down to for us who are water baptized is it's an argument over when the exact moment is that a believer was saved. To me that kind of a meaningless thing to argue among a group of already saved people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

First, there are many salvic verses not just Romans 10:9,10. We have to examine all savlic verses to determine what is necesary to be saved.

What is necessary for salvation is you must have the Holy Spirit. Period. But somebody will say, "no you need deeds, too!" And I will say to them, "if you don't have deeds to confirm the presence of the Holy Spirit in you...you ain't got the Holy Spirit!"

Secondly, Rom 10:9,0 refutes faith only. Paul said one has to believe AND confess with the mouth to be saved. Faith only would rule out confessing with the mouth.

This is such a petty argument. Faith will change what you do and say. That does not preclude faith as the sole agent of salvation.

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..." (Galatians 5:6b)

Lastly, the bible says faith alone does NOT justify therefore faith only does NOT bring salvation. Faith only is dead and a dead faith cannot do anything much less save.

Now you're confusing me. Aren't you insisting that water baptism is not a work? If so, why are you using a passage about faith and work to defend your position?

 

[Webb]

Jethro--every time baptism and a word equivalent of "saved" such as "remission of sins" is used together baptism always comes first, then followed by "saved" or its equivalent. That tells at what point one is saved. Not before, but after baptism, check it out.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ah, not so fast. On its heels Peter stated what saves is "not the putting off of dirt from the flesh" -- that is, washing someone with water. Peter states what does save, "the answer in good conscience before God." That is specifically what we would call repentance.

Peter calls it baptism because that's what he came to associate with repentance -- that is, baptism is tightly associated with repentance. But baptism per se is not even what Peter would say actually saves.

And even then, Peter doesn't appear to be asserting that repentance itself actually empowers the person to save himself. In fact it's Jesus Christ who is "the power of salvation toward everyone who believes" Rom 1:16.

So we're looking in 1 Pt 3:21 at a dry baptism when we're looking with Peter at specifically what saves. Peter's additionally not talking about who is actually performing to do the saving -- that's Jesus Christ. Peter's talking about what about us is characteristic of being saved.

Peter said "baptism doth also not save us". Baptism saves, that settles the issue. Nothing else in the context chnages these five simple words. After Peter declares that baptism saves he then tells us what baptism is not for.

Peter just made Noah being saved by water the type and us saved by water bpatism the anti-type. Then Peter tells us what baptism is not for; it's not for putting away the filth of the flesh, the flood water clesansed the earth of the filth of the flesh. Then Peter tells us what water baptism is for; water baptism [unlike the flood waters] is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Again, in Acts 2 Peter convicted those Jews of the sin of murdering the Messiah, his message pricked thier hearts, it made thier conscience guilty. THey then asked Peer what they must do and the answer Peter gave them for thier guilty conscience of sin was to be baptized for remission of sins. Being bpatized thier sins would be remitted clearing thier guilty conscience and could then face God with that clean conscience.


1 Pet 3:21 is not a dry baptism. Again, Peter in v20 made eight souls being saved by WATER the type and us being saved by WATER baptism would be the anti-type. The NT anti-type is a mirror reflection of the OT type, so if you're talking about a dry baptism then you are talking about a dry flood.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Thank you for making my point.

..and what was your point again?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro--every time baptism and a word equivalent of "saved" such as "remission of sins" is used together baptism always comes first, then followed by "saved" or its equivalent. That tells at what point one is saved. Not before, but after baptism, check it out.

Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before he was water baptized.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"The only thing that counts (toward justification--see context) is faith..." (Galatians 5:6b)

 

[Webb]

Jethro on post # 312 says: ''WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION IS YOU MUST HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. PERIOD."

Right Jethro! But the inspired apostle Peter states the gift of the Spirit follows baptism. Just another of those instances where salvation and baptism when mentioned together, baptism first, then saved or its equivalent. BTW, the reference above is Acts 2:38.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Baptism is a work
Acts 8:36-37 KJV

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here you see pepole at the gates that are professing their works instead of faith in Christ. You see only those that do the will of the father will enter the kingdom. The will of the father is below.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:5-6 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not him plus works, or baptism. Said he is the way not a way.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God does the work in baptism, not man. In Acts 2:38 the verb baptized is passive where the action is done to the one being baptized.

EPh 2:8-------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21-----baptism>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves

Since there is just one way to be saved, faith must include baptism where God does the work of cutting away the body of sin, Col 2:11,12..."the operation (work) of God..."


Many people make a contradicton out of Eph 2:8,9 not realizing that faith itself is a work. In v8 Paul says they were saved by faith but then in v9 he says 'not of works'. If "not of works" includes all works including the work faith then that would eliminate faith from being essential to salvation.

 

[Eventide]

I have a baptism to be baptized with

Peter said "baptism doth also not save us". Baptism saves, that settles the issue. Nothing else in the context chnages these five simple words. After Peter declares that baptism saves he then tells us what baptism is not for.

Peter just made Noah being saved by water the type and us saved by water bpatism the anti-type. Then Peter tells us what baptism is not for; it's not for putting away the filth of the flesh, the flood water clesansed the earth of the filth of the flesh. Then Peter tells us what water baptism is for; water baptism [unlike the flood waters] is the answer of a good conscience towards God. Again, in Acts 2 Peter convicted those Jews of the sin of murdering the Messiah, his message pricked thier hearts, it made thier conscience guilty. THey then asked Peer what they must do and the answer Peter gave them for thier guilty conscience of sin was to be baptized for remission of sins. Being bpatized thier sins would be remitted clearing thier guilty conscience and could then face God with that clean conscience.


1 Pet 3:21 is not a dry baptism. Again, Peter in v20 made eight souls being saved by WATER the type and us being saved by WATER baptism would be the anti-type. The NT anti-type is a mirror reflection of the OT type, so if you're talking about a dry baptism then you are talking about a dry flood.

IMO it's missing the entire context to think that Peter is speaking about OUR baptism.. it's speaking about the baptism of Christ upon Calvary's cross, where there the waves and billows did roll over Him.. when God made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in HIM..

I would read this over and over again in its full context because then it certainly becomes apparent that this is speaking of His baptism, and our conscience being clean by HIM being RAISED from the dead.

If there's a baptism that saves, then it's the baptism of Christ upon that cross where His precious blood was shed for our sin.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.