Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[farouk]

We have to be very careful not to make faith an end unto itself. Let's guard against straying into "faith in faith" territory. God's gift of faith opens us up to His grace, grace which is effected in us via our repentance and our baptism. But, unless the grace is effected in us via repentance and baptism, it isn't saving faith. Even you recognize this, Jethro, for you speak of the need of faith being validated.

However, I don't believe that the Scriptures teach that repentance and baptism are validation of faith. James speaks of works as a validation of faith, but nowhere that I can see does the Bible speak of repentance or baptism being a validation of faith..

The Scriptures do not have this overwhelming emphasis on faith... at the expense of repentance and baptism. I see all three being equally important to our regeneration. I guess it gets back to repentance and baptism being no more "works" than faith is.

Hebrews 11 says 'by faith'; 'by faith'; 'by faith', many times.

Ephesians 2.8,9: 'by faith', 'not of works'.

Habakkuk 2.4: 'the just shall live by faith'.

Romans 5.1: 'being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ'.

 

[handy]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

Yes they do, but NOT for Salvation. Eph 2:8-9 states;
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James talks about faith producing works, as we walk in Jesus, AFTER salvation.

Salvation is a single ONE time experience which require FAITH only. Walking in Jesus should automatically produce works, or fruit, and therefore is expected to be seen. Jesus exemplified this, by destroying the fig tree that didn't have fruit it should have had. This was symbolic of what WILL happen to believers that DO NOT produce fruit in their lives.
Let's try to keep the two issues separate, and not cross contaminate them.

Hi Stan, nice to have you in the discussion.

You know, this statement of yours: Salvation is a single ONE time experience which require FAITH only.

I don't see that the Scriptures teaches that about salvation. I hear this all the time... but the more I study the scriptures, the less I see this to be true.

We don't want to derail the thread, and just what exactly constitutes "salvation" would be another 20+ page discussion to be sure. But, looking at salvation in the context of baptism, I believe the Scriptures are far more clear that baptism is a necessary part of our salvation... the death of the old, sinful man.

 

[handy]

Hebrews 11 says 'by faith'; 'by faith'; 'by faith', many times.

Ephesians 2.8,9: 'by faith', 'not of works'.

Habakkuk 2.4: 'the just shall live by faith'.

Romans 5.1: 'being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ'.

farouk, I don't deny that the Scriptures emphasize faith... just not at the expense of repentance and baptism. I could come up with a line of Scriptures that speak of repentance and of baptism that do not mention faith:

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Acts 3:19-20: Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

Acts 17:30-31 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.â€

2 Corinthians 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

Yes they do, but NOT for Salvation. Eph 2:8-9 states;
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James talks about faith producing works, as we walk in Jesus, AFTER salvation.

Salvation is a single ONE time experience which require FAITH only. Walking in Jesus should automatically produce works, or fruit, and therefore is expected to be seen. Jesus exemplified this, by destroying the fig tree that didn't have fruit it should have had. This was symbolic of what WILL happen to believers that DO NOT produce fruit in their lives.
Let's try to keep the two issues separate, and not cross contaminate them.

THe faith that saves must have works else it is dead. As James said by works a man is justifed not by faith only. What you are suggesting above is that a dead faith only saves. How can a dead faith save?


Faith is a work.

 

[Stan53]

Lk 7:30 occurred under the OT law before Acts 2:38, Christ's gospel came into effect. We today who live after Acts 2:38 are accountable to it. Also, Mt 9:6 tells us "But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house."

While Jesus was ON EARTH, He had been given the power/authority by His Father to forgive sins of those whom He thought was deserving. Yet when Jesus ascended back to heaven and left earth, He left behind His word, the bible as His authority on earth and His word teaches us today that we must be baptized to be saved, Mk 16:16....baptized>>>>sins forgiven>>>reckoned righteous.

It's verse 50 actually, but in any event, Acts 2:38 shows Peter following Christ's great commission that he gave them in Matthew 28:16-20. This was NOT new for them to do. Jesus was doing it in John 3:26 and John 4:1-2. This was ALL before He ascended to God. Although there is some controversy about Mark 16:16, I am willing to accept that it is the same as the Great Commission found in Matthew 28 where Jesus clearly said; “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.†These verses are clear but Mark 16:16 seems to be a quick synopsis of what Jesus says in Matthew 28, a Reader's Digest version if you will.

Jesus was our Advocate when He lived on earth. He told His disciples He was going to send ANOTHER Advocate, John 14:16. That Advocate was to remind us of Him and the words He said, and to teach us all things. John 14:26.
Acts 2:38 was not the first time the disciples received the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 says; And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.â€

The Bible we use today, does NOT clearly show that water baptism is REQUIRED to receive salvation. It is the next step in our new life in Jesus, just as receiving the infilling/baptism of the Holy Spirit is. These things come in order.
All we need to be saved is to accept God's gift of redemption as Jesus said in Matthew 26:28; This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:27-29&version=NIV

 

[Stan53]

Re: East is east and west is west, and never the two shall meet.

THe faith that saves must have works else it is dead. As James said by works a man is justifed not by faith only. What you are suggesting above is that a dead faith only saves. How can a dead faith save?
Faith is a work.

That's NOT what the Bible says, Romans 10:10; For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

You continue to mix the two issues.

Faith ONLY brings salvation, and Faith plus works is how we LIVE out our new life in Jesus. Please don't mix the two.

 

[Webb]

What translation is that?

 

[heymikey80]

In Eph 2:8 the Ephesians were saved by faith through faith. Biblcal faith includes baptism:


Eph 2:8---------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1Pet3:21-------baptism>>>>>>>>>>>save

Ah, not so fast. On its heels Peter stated what saves is "not the putting off of dirt from the flesh" -- that is, washing someone with water. Peter states what does save, "the answer in good conscience before God." That is specifically what we would call repentance.

Peter calls it baptism because that's what he came to associate with repentance -- that is, baptism is tightly associated with repentance. But baptism per se is not even what Peter would say actually saves.

And even then, Peter doesn't appear to be asserting that repentance itself actually empowers the person to save himself. In fact it's Jesus Christ who is "the power of salvation toward everyone who believes" Rom 1:16.

So we're looking in 1 Pt 3:21 at a dry baptism when we're looking with Peter at specifically what saves. Peter's additionally not talking about who is actually performing to do the saving -- that's Jesus Christ. Peter's talking about what about us is characteristic of being saved.

 

[farouk]

farouk, I don't deny that the Scriptures emphasize faith... just not at the expense of repentance and baptism. I could come up with a line of Scriptures that speak of repentance and of baptism that do not mention faith:

Luke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

Acts 3:19-20: Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

Acts 17:30-31 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.â€

2 Corinthians 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

H:

The Lord Jesus said: 'Repent ye, and believe the Gospel' (Mark 1.15).

Acts 20.21 speaks of 'repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ'.

Clearly, faith and repentance are closely linked.

Baptism is a public symbol of faith, linked to a clear conscience; it is not the essence of the clear conscience itself.

 

[handy]

H:

The Lord Jesus said: 'Repent ye, and believe the Gospel' (Mark 1.15).

Acts 20.21 speaks of 'repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ'.

Clearly, faith and repentance are closely linked.

Baptism is a public symbol of faith, linked to a clear conscience; it is not the essence of the clear conscience itself.

Again, there is no language in the Scriptures that equates baptism with a "public symbol" of faith. That is a man-made construct of what baptism is... not taught in Scriptures.

Baptism is linked to our burial in Christ, the death of the old man and the washing of regeneration.

Jesus also linked baptism to believe... Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved..."

 

[heymikey80]

farouk, I don't deny that the Scriptures emphasize faith... just not at the expense of repentance and baptism. I could come up with a line of Scriptures that speak of repentance and of baptism that do not mention faith

Repentance is a change. Without faith, what is repentance toward? Would that repentance save someone?

 

[handy]

Mikey,

My view in this isn't that faith isn't necessary...

So many times the lines are drawn as if it all has to be one thing or another...

I believe that, if we really pursue what the Scriptures teach we would see that it's not just one thing or another thing....

Salvation is wrought in a person when they receive God's gift of grace. "For by GRACE you have been saved...." Faith is part of this, but repentance and baptism is as well.

Through faith we heed the call, through repentance we gain forgiveness and through baptism the old sinful man is buried and the new creation rises up.

Everyone here can post all the texts they want as to what faith does for us... and I'll say "Amen, Amen, Amen Hallelujah". But, we could research and post each and every scripture that has to do with faith, and it still isn't going to negate what repentance and baptism do for us.

When we review all the Scriptures that specifically deal with the new birth, the chang from a sinful, dead person, to a new living creation, we see that belief, repentance and baptism all have their part. It's like a 3-legged stool, all three are necessary for the believer.

 

[heymikey80]

Everyone here can post all the texts they want as to what faith does for us... and I'll say "Amen, Amen, Amen Hallelujah". But, we could research and post each and every scripture that has to do with faith, and it still isn't going to negate what repentance and baptism do for us.

When we review all the Scriptures that specifically deal with the new birth, the chang from a sinful, dead person, to a new living creation, we see that belief, repentance and baptism all have their part. It's like a 3-legged stool, all three are necessary for the believer.

I think what we find in Scripture is that faith & repentance are necessary to salvation, and baptism and salvation and works result.

Peter excludes the water-washing part of baptism, and keeps repentance.
Paul uses baptism as visual imagery and sign.

 

[handy]

I disagree that Peter "excludes the water-washing part of baptism"...

I would like to see the scriptural support of Peter excluding the water-washing part of baptism as well as the scriptural support of Paul using baptism as visual imagery and sign.

It seems as if all the texts regarding baptism have been laid on the table, but perhaps you are referring to some that I'm unaware of.

 

[handy]

I think what we find in Scripture is that faith & repentance are necessary to salvation, and baptism and salvation and works result.

Not according to our Lord, nor Peter, nor Paul... none of them preached that baptism is a result of anything, but rather that it was a necessary step.

Jesus said the clearest insofar as an order is inferred:

He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved...

Repent and be baptized was Peter's call in his sermons...

 

[heymikey80]

I disagree that Peter "excludes the water-washing part of baptism"...

I would like to see the scriptural support of Peter excluding the water-washing part of baptism as well as the scriptural support of Paul using baptism as visual imagery and sign.

It seems as if all the texts regarding baptism have been laid on the table, but perhaps you are referring to some that I'm unaware of.

not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God 1 Pt 3:21b

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6:3-4

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word Eph 5:26

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. Col 2:12

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb 10:22

 

[Stan53]

there is no language in the Scriptures that equates baptism with a "public symbol" of faith. That is a man-made construct of what baptism is... not taught in Scriptures.

Then I suggest you read Romans 6:1-14, where Paul pretty clearly illustrates this in verse 4, We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

 

[reba]

Maybe you can ask Him what He did not mention grace, repentance or the blood of Christ in those verses ;). Does that mean grace and Christ's blood have nothing to do with salvation? We have to know 'all the counsel of God' to determine what one must do to be saved. Seldom, rarely does just a verse or two exahust all there is to know about a particular subject.

Thank you for making my point.

 

[spartakis]

Baptism is a work
Acts 8:36-37 KJV

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here you see pepole at the gates that are professing their works instead of faith in Christ. You see only those that do the will of the father will enter the kingdom. The will of the father is below.

John 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 14:5-6 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Not him plus works, or baptism. Said he is the way not a way.
Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[handy]

not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God 1 Pt 3:21b

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Rom 6:3-4

For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word Eph 5:26

having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. Col 2:12

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb 10:22

Right... now, explain why these texts are "visual imagery and sign" rather than what baptism is, does and effects in us...

Also, I am wary of cutting texts in half to make a point. The full text of Peter, which I assume is the one is which you claim Peter excludes the water washing part of baptism is:

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Corresponding to what? Corresponding to how Noah and his family were saved through the waters of the flood that cleansed the earth of sin. I don't see how this can be construed as Peter excluding the water washing part of baptism when the context is the water-washed "baptism" (Flood) of the earth.